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So, as I'm sure many people remember, melta was the king of 5th edition. Pretty much any IG list a person wrote back then required it to some extent. Plasma was good, but with the limitations on rapid fire and vehicle damage, it was viewed more as a specialist weapon.

6th ed however mixed up all kinds of things, and the internal balance of IG special weapons is no different. So, to cut to the chase, which special weapons do you feel are the most critical in an Imperial Guard army right now? Foot, Aircav, Mech, Hybrid, whatever, all require a ton of special weapons, so all viewpoints are welcome. While I'm mainly concerned with the whole melta vs. plasma ratio, the others have their place and I'm all for hearing strategies for them as well.

As for what I'm noticing, at first I was spamming plasma like crazy in 6th. Being able to run around and fire a shot at 24" was awesome to me, and I took them on everything. However, after the initial excitement for them, I've found myself not taking them anymore, in favor of meltaguns again. Even though plasma has the better range, I've been finding melta the superior weapon in most instances for my footguard. I'm not sure why, but it always seems like the meltaguns do more damage. Insant deathing IC's, killing transports and tanks quickly, putting good wounds on MC's, the melta feels like it's more effective than the plasma in almost every situation. Which doesnt make sense to me, because should't plasma usually be doing more damage to everything but vehicles? I know S7 spam is good, but I take a ton of autocannons and an exterminator in my lists, so I'm rarely hurting for it even without plasma. Is plasma really not that good, or am I just crazy? I know I've been losing lots of guys to burns, meaning that even the squads that are surviving late in the game have a good chance of neutering themselves after a few shots, so that might have something to do with it as well. I've stopped taking them on everything but CCS's, and I'm about to drop them there as well, I just dont own enough meltas yet to do so. If i start bringing vets, I may bring plasma there, but other than that, I think I'm done with it for a while.

Are you guys still finding plasma good, or are you noticing the same things I am? I have a strong feeling this is just me, but who knows, maybe I'm not the only one.

Also. how are sniper rifles treating you guys so far? I'm looking for some cheap upgrades to throw on my PCS and CCS's and after my frustration with plasma they seem like the only other decent choice for ranged combat. Are they good for the points? they're only 5pts apiece. and if you weren't going to use the slot anyways they're better than nothing right?

MrMoustaffa wrote:As for what I'm noticing, at first I was spamming plasma like crazy in 6th. Being able to run around and fire a shot at 24" was awesome to me, and I took them on everything. However, after the initial excitement for them, I've found myself not taking them anymore, in favor of meltaguns again.

Yeah, me too. Plasma guns are better against terminators, and they're better for when you can't get your special weapons quite as close as you like them. That's sort of it, though. Melta still has so many advantages.

In a way, I kind of feel like plasma guns are just up-powered lasguns, while meltaguns are substantially different than your small arm.

MrMoustaffa wrote: so I'm rarely hurting for it even without plasma.

And that's really a good shorthand test. How many times have you ended a game and said "Man, I wish I had more plasma!". Probably not that often. How many games have you ended where you said "I wish I had more melta!" Probably a lot more.

MrMoustaffa wrote: Also. how are sniper rifles treating you guys so far?

Not too shabby, actually. They waste slots, but they don't waste points. If you've got slots, but you don't have points, they're actually not too shabby for their cost.

I don't know if I'd go out of my way to field them, though. If you have the points for better stuff, take better stuff.

Well I've got two CCS's right now that only have 1 plasma and a standard. The plasma guns have literally done nothing so far, so I'm considering trying 3 snipers and a standard instead, as that is the same amount of points while giving my CCS's something to do. I'm mainly looking at them for anti MC though, as I've been seeing a lot of them lately. Wierd, as I was calling those stupid things useless not a week ago, now I'm looking at them and going " you know what, those seem pretty good now"

In that case, yes, I'd do it. 3 guns is better than 1 gun in this case. Plus, don't forget that snipers really like both BiD and FoMT, and in a CCS they're always in range. Throw in BS4, and it's not a terrible way to spend an extra 15 points, especially compared to a CCS with only a single plasma gun. I mean, at that point you might as well be taking an autocannon, or something.

They're not going to kill a whole lot, but you're bringing a 70 point unit to buff everyone around them and stop them from running off the board. Any killing you happen to do is more of a bonus.

Plus, after a few rounds of shooting, you're likely to get in a couple of precise shots and some rends, so it's not like they're worthless.

Have only ran sniper rifles in ratling form. Ran just the 3, has worked out ok as a harrassment unit. One time I did get the 6 to hit and 6 to wound and managed to kill off a a Crisis Suit. But thats it, overall I feel they are not worth it. With ST's and Marbo competing in the elite slot (after great choices in heavy and fast that is).

As for the melta/plasma debate, I run melta in my IS's and plasma in a CCS and a few SWS's. The plasma sqauds move around on foot, usually hanging behind LR's for cover until they advance to the point where they are needed or the LR is destroyed and they can attack from that place.

The melta's in the IS's have been great, as I have long range AT down with the over-whelming amount of LC and AC's IG can bring. If I get rushed by a land raider army or monolith, etc, the melta is there as a great deterrent.

Plasma cannot be pinned down, the 30" threat bubble is huge and offers great 2+ protection. While melta needs to be there for its same, great purpose, anti-tank.

In my shooty blob, I only use plasmas and thats not going to change. Meltas do not have range. With plasma I can fire very often while maintaining bodies in front of plasma guys to keep them alive. I can not do that with meltas and their 12" range...they would either die before they do something or they would survive without doing something the whole game...range can be a bitch

Meltas I use in special teams. My veterans have them when they jump from Valkyries. My SWS have them when I outflank them with AlRahem. My Kasrkins have the when they deep strike. There is usually no problem with their range when I outflank or transport them.

Flamers - either in PCS in a Valkyrie. Or use them like a defensive weapon in blob to prevent or withstand enemy charge with overwatch fire.

Sniper rifles - I do not think they are worth it in IG units. I'd rather take an AC instead of 2x sniper rifle.

Melta is a fantastic tool for the IG, I just think it is not as flexible as the plasma gun. Vendettas pretty much handle AT roles just as well and are cheaper than a melta vet squad in a Chimera.

Plasma can kill termies from 24", and double thier killing power with rapid fire, allowing you to really concentrate fire when your ready burn down a squad.

If your in Melta range, your probably close enough to rapid fire plasma into side armor. If its anything AV12 or lower Plasma is just as effective.

Thier both very good, but Plasma gives you more tactical flexibility.

I've also made the switch from plasma to melta on my PIS.

I've only run two games or so with them, but I think melta is the way to go. My plasguns either killed a few models a game, or incinerated my gunners. Melta is either out of range, or will really feth something up. Give's my infantry a bit more bite, which they seldom get to use, but when they do, its fully worth it.

Plasma on CCS, vets, or stormtroopers though, still a great thing. Just not on my line troops.

Melta is still better than plasma, although the difference has narrowed.

On IG, you dont have the armor save to handle the overheating, and at mostly BS3 you are only getting 3 hits per overheat.

On top of that plasma still costs more.

I suggested it 6 months ago, the way to solve plasma melta, to make them both worth it and their points, would be to make Melta Str7 and Plasma Str8. So melta would still kill tanks inside melta range. Plasma would ID T4 and do better against MC.

 Exergy wrote:
Melta is still better than plasma, although the difference has narrowed.

On IG, you dont have the armor save to handle the overheating, and at mostly BS3 you are only getting 3 hits per overheat.

On top of that plasma still costs more.

I suggested it 6 months ago, the way to solve plasma melta, to make them both worth it and their points, would be to make Melta Str7 and Plasma Str8. So melta would still kill tanks inside melta range. Plasma would ID T4 and do better against MC.

I feel they're balanced where they are. Plasma has rapid fire, double the range, and still has the AP to matter against heavy infantry, which is what its role is in the first place. If melta was only S7, that would be kind of wierd, as the whole reason for it being S8 is so that it can still glance AV 14 outside of melta range. Plus, the melta only gets one shot, so if only 1 out of the two can ID T4, it should probably be the melta gun. I mean, the friggin thing is designed to melt TANKS, of course it should be the more powerful weapon.

I don't think plasma is a bad weapon, far from it. I'm just having a hard time finding uses for it in my footguard lists when melta and autocannons tend to do the jobs plasma fills, but much better, and for only 5 more points combined. Autocannons spam S7 at range, and always double tap, while the melta gets a nice and solid AP 1 S8 shot, which I've found invaluable for fighting paladins and nobs. Plus, it's saved me from tankshocks more than once, where a plasma would've just singed the paint. However, I'm considering adding in some carapace vets among my infantry squads, and hiding them behind tanks. Those guys would definitely be packing plasma over melta guns, as their accuracy and armor would help mitigate all the problems I have with plasma, and would pack enough of them to be a viable threat to enemy infantry and light armor.

I think theyre both good. With vets I try to run an equal ratio of each, to make the most out of their strengths.

The rule changes effectively gave plasmaguns a 6" range buff. This is great for infantry that generally used to have to either sit still to fire anything long range, or sacrifice range and firepower in order to maneuver.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Autocannons spam S7 at range, and always double tap, while the melta gets a nice and solid AP 1 S8 shot

And that's it, really.

Plasma guns have to compete against autocannons, who put down the same number of shots out to twice the range for only 2/3ds the points, and they'll never fry their operator. Yes, plasma guns have a nice Ap, but S7 HPs stuff to death more often than it wrecks it outright (and if you really wanted that, you'd take melta for its Ap1), and you're not guaranteed to catch a unit without cover either. In any case, those things which you want Ap2 against are usually handled better by volume of fire anyways (especially now that FNP doesn't care about Ap).

Plasma v. autocannon is a debate, while the meltagun doesn't really have an analogue. Lascannon shoot much farther away, but they're not Ap1, and they'll never get +D6, and they cost twice as much. They're still good, but they don't cause a competition with meltaguns the way autocannons do to plasma.

Moreover, as has been mentioned, when you really, absolutely need to have it killed dead, there's no substitute for melta.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Also. how are sniper rifles treating you guys so far?

Sniper rifles always make me die a little inside. I mean they look cool, but when you start looking up the odds of doing damage, and then compare it to similarly priced special weapons (flamers and grenade launchers), not to mention that you can't move and shoot, it just losses out. Granted Ratling count-as have been effective MC slayers for me, a squad of 10 can slay something like a carnifex over 3-4 turns.

Only real advantage to Plasma Guns over Melta Guns is that they are more effective against terminators, that said, Melta Guns are able to ID a lot of stuff ESPECIALLY Paladins, MANZ, and foot Nobs.

So a question for guys with sniper rifles, do they do any damage worth talking about to MC's? I'll have roughly 6 between my 2 CCS's, and while I'm not expecting miracles, an extra wound or 2 wouldn't hurt.

I see a ton of daemon princes and hive tyrants/tervigons/carnifexes, so I'm starting to actually consider snipers on my cheaper units just to give them something to do. If they're fairly effective, they may even replace the flamers in my PCS's.

Aren't the rules the same as 5th for snipers? 4+ wound, rending?

 Amaya wrote:
Aren't the rules the same as 5th for snipers? 4+ wound, rending?

+4 to wound, rends on 6 to wound, precision shot on 6 to hit. Yeah other than precision shot it should be the same. I've never used snipers though except in a game against tau once (and you can imagine how that went) so I don't have a good enough experience with them to really know what to expect.

Who would you have using them?

I'll still keep using Plasma for my infantry squads. But meltas all in the way in Special Weapon Squads! Just have two squads of SWS with 3x melta in 2 Vendettas, that's some serious anti-tank potential.

In the end, it's good to take a mix of both. I also tend to play a lot of Terminators hence my move to Plasma weaponry. Meltas were a lot better, but it seems like you will only get 1 good shot with them nowadays. I noticed that in my first game of 6th, where I only fired with them once and then they got killed. Yes it's anecdotal but it stung enough to where I didn't want to have to bother with that again. Plasma guns are still pretty decent against AV10-11 and they synergize really well with autocannons.

I have started to think about adjusting the ratio of plasma to melta in my list to 75/25%. Plasma has range and higher RoF that helps with the
"glance-it-to-death" approach of 6th. But melta is necessary to reliably counter AV 13-14 ( Ironclads, Land Raiders, fortresses ).

While Sniper rifles learned some new tricks in 6th ( Precision shot ), I still feel they are not worth it. To get full use of their abilities you must 1) stay stationary and 2)
roll sixes.

While not within the realm of IG, this was something that we discussed on our recent podcast episode. While we aren't necessarily the most technical of podcasts, one of the other hosts did some mathhammer and it came out that Plasma is more efficient and will cause wounds more often.

Before that discussion, I was more on the side of meltas. I still think that they definitely have a place in 40k, especially with deep striking units or suicide scout units, but hull points have made glances far deadlier and 2 shots at 12" is pretty nice for stripping HP on AV13 compared to the single shot of the melta at 12".

Unless it's a suicide type squad, do you really want to get close enough to crack that Land Raider full of terminators who will be able to shoot and assault you next turn?

Of course, this is all IMHO and YMMV. Who knows, I'll probably change my mind and go to a mix of the two before too long.

I've been taking a sniper for my CCS along with a lascannon it just sits at the back issuing orders and taking shots at MCs. Considering you wound all demons and MCs on a 4+ for a 5pt weapon, it is most certainly worth the points in my example.
Even if I don't get to shoot it for one or two turns because the lascannon found a better target, it's still only 5pts.

Back on topic, I've been having horrible luck with my plasma, in 3/4 games the gunners fried themselves in a chimera in the 1st turn. Still I keep taking them, but only 1 vet squad. When it works, they can tear through a MEQ or TEQ squad in one volley which the melta squad can't (although it obviously has other advantages).

I'd think a CCS or two firing off 4-8 sniper rifles a turn could do quite a big of damage to MCs especially with orders.

 Amaya wrote:
Who would you have using them?

A couple of PCS's and CCS's that have a ton of empty slots but not really a lot of points to go towards them. Snipers are dirt cheap, and more likely to get used than GL's or flamers, so I'm looking at them just to take advantage of the slots. Anything is better than a lasgun after all.

So, some quick maths.

3 sniper rifles puts down 2 hits on average. 1 in 3 times that they shoot, you'll be able to pick out a meltagunner. 1 in 3 times the squad fires you'll get a shot that ignores armor/can hurt vehicles. 1 in 18 times that the squad shoots, they'll be able to pick out a meltagunner with a rending shot.

Obviously, BiD and FoMT makes this better.

So yeah, it doesn't look that great, but look at it for its points. I mean, 3 snipers are putting down an armor save a turn on anything, regardless of toughness. A heavy bolter puts down 1.666 against guard, 1.3 against marines, and 1 against T5.

So why bother with the snipers when you could have a heavy bolter or autocannon? Because for slightly less damage, they DO get that 1 in 3 rend, and they DO have a chance at taking someone important out, and the DO cause pinning checks, and they DO hurt MCs just a little bit better.

All of those individually may be small, but combine them together. Against a guard squad, it does an average of one wound, along with a .94 to either precise shot or rend or pin. Put another way, you should expect at least SOMETHING fancy to happen every time you fire the guns, even moreso with BiD.

If the fanciness is meaningless to you, then don't bother. If you really feel you need flamers or grenade launchers or something else that doesn't do very much but is very cheap, then fine. I you want a weapon that has some chance of causing disruption above its points cost, then go with the snipers.

My ratio of melta/plasma has stayed the same at about 50/50. I'm having the opposite view to some of you guys though. Where Ailaros said, 'have you ever been late in the game and thought, ''I wish i'd brought more plasma?'' As it happens, yes. Quite often in fact. I can't say the same for the melta gun.

I think its more to do with the targets and my opponant. I don't see as many vehicles as you'd expect yet MEQ troops are everywhere. Mainly Necrons and the plasma gun was an old friend in 5th to keep the damn things down. Because of this, plasma is causing board wide devestation while my melta struggles to find an ideal target. Even in 6th.

Of course there is the occassional mishap where the guardsman cooks himself however the losses compared to the weapons effectiveness is worth the points and risk from my point of view. The extra range of the 6' and the fact its a 24'' shot anyway just gives me a better coverage on the board and means I can hold ground or attack from farther away. This gives me an extra shot or two before assault. The melta however always becomes a real pain in the backside for me since getting it safetly into range on foot poses a challenger and I can't always afford multiple melta gun units in chimera's.

My current method with melta guns is that it's either in a chimera, suicide stormtrooper squad or I don't take it. My plasma guns however see use most of the time and has priority over the melta gun should the points be tight. That's not to say I go to war without melta though. Just i'll cut down if needed. I have a manticore for the heaviest of vehicles and thats a unit that hasn't yet let me down. It's also rare I won't have a demolisher with me which has been known to take on the odd Land raider too. This ultimatly means my need for melta is far less that my need for plasma.

Aileros covered it well. I think they'll make back their points easily on BS4 units. BS3 units not so much.

.

My main gripe with plasma is that they don't translate particularly well into the late game. The "gets hot" rule means my normal plasma troops overheat and die turn 2 (or 3 if I'm lucky). Perhaps I just have particularly bad luck with plasma (rolled six shots, came up with four 1's and zero hits at BS 4), but when I find myself with part of my platoon left in the mid game, I'd prefer that "sure" str 8 ap 1 shot, rather than sigh in disappointment at my 9 man infantry squad whose plasma exploded long ago.

That said, I do use plasma, but I keep them to specialty units that have a dedicated role (see: anti-terminator) like a CCS plasma gunboat or a carapace vetran squad.

As for sniper rifles, they've been a bit underwhelming for me so far, but they are better than a lasgun. I'll try running them in a veteran squad with Sargent harker and another heavy bolter for a 205 point infiltrating dakkamira, but as my meta is mostly space marines and grey knights, I don't think they'll perform very well.

I spam plasma. Hard. To the point where I don't have a single meltagun in any of my lists. I'm not a huge fan of moving my units with 12 inches of enemy units, and that's the maximum range. So realistically you'll be between 8 and 12. Then you take even more inches off when you remember to keep bodies in front of your meltas. Being that close just doesn't do it for me. What I have had surprising success with is carapace armored units with maxed out plasma guns. I know I know. Too many points spent on a T3 W1 model among other things.

Plasma has always done well by me. So that's what I roll with.

As far as plasma goes, in a 2000 point list, I tend to have 18 plasma guns and 14 melta guns. I usually stick the plasma on standard guard squads, stormies and 3/5s of my vet squads, and the melta go on the other 2/5s of my vets and PCS's. This has worked out very well for me, but I haven't (and have no intention of) trying it out against AV14 spam or flyer spam. I will say that I tend to get very few burns in most games. I don't think I've lost more than two out of the 18 gunners in a single game since I started playing 6th ed.

As for snipers and ratlings in particular, they are an effective choice that get outshined by better options. Ratlings in particular get outshined by stormies and Marbo, but I managed to take out a Rhino, a Libby, and the remnants of an SM squad holding an objective with a ten man squad of them in a single game. I do however, take 2 snipers and an autocannon in my CCS, and that is a combo that has worked out well for me so far.