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Crimson-King2120 wrote:
So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?

Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?

Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.

It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?

Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.

But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.

For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.

Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.

But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?

Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.

It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?

Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.

But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.

For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.

Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.

But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.

Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.

I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!

Hmm. I can see potential in letting your Blastmasters die in melee and sniping a support character 48” away. If you cast Prescience to super-charge EC and didn’t move in your last movement phase, and you’ve got IoE, then you’re getting DttFE on a roll of 4+... that’s worth a re-roll on your number of shots to try to get three when everything aligns right... and you can re-roll to wound off an Exalted Champion, to boot

...expect this to be FAQ’d away as soon as it crops up at a toundment

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?

Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.

It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?

Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.

But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.

For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.

Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.

But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.

Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.

I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!

What was your unit size for the noise marines? Did you infiltrate most games?

orkswubwub wrote:
What was your unit size for the noise marines? Did you infiltrate most games?

I ran an 8-man unit in the Championships (all Sonic Blasters) and infiltrated them. In both of the other Adepticon events I entered, I ran a 10 man with 2 Blastmasters and 8 Sonic Blasters. I infiltrated them in the Champs, and I honestly don't remember what I did in the other events. Pretty sure I didn't infiltrate them in the Team event, because CP's were tight (my detachment only got us 1 CP because I ran 2 Obliterator squads).

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?

Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.

It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?

Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.

But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.

For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.

Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.

But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.

Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.

I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!

Sorry if that was confusing.

I responded to the assertion Noise Marines are one of the best units in the game. I disagree and pointed at examples of similar units that arguably better (without getting into Xenos.) You're right, Veterans and Strike Squads are not Chaos, nor was that the point.

That's great that you get so much out of them. I used to put 2 squads in a Kharbydis Assault Claw and deep strike with Abaddon and a Chaos Sorcerer. I agree, they are great at clearing chaff. The problem was they die too easily, I would get one good round of shooting out of them before they got tied up or went down to return fire. MotA never made that much of a difference, even with 20 Noise Marines, because a Sonic Blaster is just a bolter with more shots. Don't remember ever wounding a character, but tried many times.

As far as the Blastmaster goes, you're right, it is about as powerful as a missile launcher. I favor lascannons myself for the damage and the range. I guess the problem I have with Blastmasters is the rest of the squad has to have bolters or Sonic Blasters, and these need to be in 24 inch range. You have to play them close, not stand back to force the enemy come to you.

Again, Noise Marines are a little fragile and their weapons are not that great. If it was AP -1 on Sonic Blasters or they had some additional cover mechanic, I'd be interested. But they're just not on par with a lot of other things in the game.

Deathwatch Vets and Noise Marines are both really good and fulfil slightly different roles. Vets are better within 12" but worse at 24", they don't have assault weapons, don't have access to EC and VotLW (but have 2CP +1 to wound), they have access to Mission Tactics but we have access to Legion Traits (AL and Renegades are both awesome for Noise Marines), and their psychic support is way way way worse than ours. They can deepstrike with their stratagem but this isn't as good with the beta rules. We can also take blobs of 20 to maximise stratagem and psychic buffs but you need to really build around that to make it work.

"Best unit in the game" is a bit hyperbolic for my taste but they are still really good and I think most Chaos lists can find a spot for them. Now that Knights are looking to be a meta-shifting gatekeeper army they will probably see less use, but they will rock the socks off any horde or MEQ heavy army.

Going back to the discussion regarding Scorpius', to me they seem slightly overcosted. The D2 isn't that useful for them against MEQ but they don't have the -AP and Str to take on light vehicles (except Drukhari). Given Drukhari is a tough match-up for some people maybe they are a good choice though. Good players should be able to tie them up fairly easily though, the example previously where the BA player charges all 3 of them is just stupid. They should have charged 1 and then piled into/consolidated into the rest of them.

i own 2 renegade Ik's and i know what im saying , pity cause i like the models.

So, do the Armiers out perform AC Predator tanks now?

I think the new renegade chaos knights index adds alot of options to regular chaos armies. Probably wouldn't be the best idea to run 3 knights (if you do you might as well play IK as a codex).

However, as a super heavy auxiliary detachment, it brings alot of options to the table. Look at the Gallant. For 350 points, you get a 24W T8 monster in close combat that is better than a LOS at full wounds. A lord of skulls is better but its nowhere near as cheap as a 350 point Gallant.

And for 1 cp, you can rotate ion shields on the Gallant to make it 4++. You can't do that with your LOS. World eaters armies just got a massive distraction carnefix which is not easy to kill.

And we get the armigers and the Dominus classes too. The Dominus classes are no joke. They are really good. The Castellan is now hands down the shootiest of our long ranged titan options compared to the LOS. It may have a place in a shooty CSM list since its not just shooty, in a pinch, it can do close combat as well. 4+ to hit may not be fantastic, but we are still talking about 12 hits with d3 damage for its titan feet.

And the Valiant is a very unique Dominus that is interesting to Chaos too. Consider it as a short ranged shooty version of a LOS. So, it might be great for a mid field type of army (maybe death guard). Its reach is definitely considered mid range and some lists are perfectly fine with that.

Consider the double Avenger gratling renegade knight with twin flamers. That thing is a monster at clearing clearing chaff, and a hard to kill one at that, because again you can spend 1 cp to make it 4++. Have that thing clear the chaff on turn 1 while your berserkers in Rhinos are still comfortably in their Rhinos charging up the field. Are they gonna ignore all your berserkers or are they going to kill off that renegade knight? (Want to shoot down a 24W T8 4++ model while the rest of my army is going to charge you next turn and all your chaff fodder is gone? be my guest!).

Armigers seem much better than hellbrutes to me. Far tougher with an invul save to boot. I can bring a superheavy detachment with 1 knight and 2 amigers and get 3cp. And the amigers can take the place of my hellbrutes and do a better job. All in all, I am really happy they dropped this faq.

@linsay40k

I know you play Word Bearers (and my own army is painted as Word bearers, because Crimson Slaughter looked kinda boring); do you think it'll be worth it to play Word Bearers just for the Voice of Lorgar with multiple MSU CSM-squads with Heavy weapons dotted around the Battlefield? Also, have you tried a Slaanesh-Lord on Steed with Cursed Crozius? With Diabolic Strenght he'd be a Chaotic Version of Slamginius for ~100 pt.

edit:words

renegade IK's not got improved that's sure... but... i still not sure a 470pt Ik is worth, armigers are good in my opinion and i suppose we will see a lot on the table, i will try something as soon as i get my 3 armigers ready. I will try a Ik+2 armigers or 3 straight autocannon armigers

Having 4++ renegade knights is a big improvement. There's a big difference between 5++ and 4++ save.

Having re-roll hits is nice too (although less important on a gallant).

I sort of like having a renegade castellan and just letting it re-roll hits for the whole game, but not having the relic plasma is REALLY a feels bad moment.

TBH I think I just use IK rules for a real knights army and just convert everything to look chaos-ey.

BA are basically world eaters let's be real here. And guardsmen? So ready to turn to chaos.

Feels bad to be using imperial rules (and to have someone roll death to the false emperor against you) but I don't think more than 1 knight is in any way going to be truly competitive for chaos with the lack of stratagems, relics, and warlord traits.

And because tbh, Magnus/Morty do a lot of what stabby knights do a lot better for not much more points. Plus (I believe) are more durable vs most things you care about with being -1 to hit (and of course the 3++ on Magnus and the FNP on Morty)

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
@linsay40k

I know you play Word Bearers (and my own army is painted as Word bearers, because Crimson Slaughter looked kinda boring); do you think it'll be worth it to play Word Bearers just for the Voice of Lorgar with multiple MSU CSM-squads with Heavy weapons dotted around the Battlefield? Also, have you tried a Slaanesh-Lord on Steed with Cursed Crozius? With Diabolic Strenght he'd be a Chaotic Version of Slamginius for ~100 pt.

Main uses I've found for VoL - and it is a pretty good Warlord trait - are on a quartermaster CL shouting at rooftop Havocs (which I can see being adaptable to what you suggest), and a biker or steed lord or DP accompanying a mobile division. I personally tend to put it on my Nurgle DP as he's got the mobility and damage output to achieve most Tactical Objectives if I roll a 66, and can yell at my DG Drones.

Interesting idea with the Steedlord. I built mine with a Murder Sword, but I've got a few left over Steeds... might just give this a try.

I don't tend to collect around what present rules and meta are, but I wouldn't say a VoL firebase *alone* makes Word Bearers worth taking over, say, an Iron Warriors one that's a bit less spread out but fearless instead of ATSKNF, ignores cover, and has a DP with a 2+ save and regeneration. Like, in a mirror match, the IWs will still have the advantage.

Sweet so if I were to buy back in what units have good synergy with noise marines also is Lucius the Eternal decent this ed ?

Knight valiant seems like a good option in eldar heavy metas. With some sicarans and hellflamer toting whatevers you negate a lot of what makes them so stupid to play against

Lucius? nothing in particular. he wants to be in CC when his boys wants to be gunning fools down (with the added benefit of still being able to fight back pretty well when assaulted)

Noise boys?
Practically everything goes well with them. and they are pretty great troops. they may not be the most durable for the cost, especialyl with noise guns (AS THEY SHOULD!) but they have all-assault guns, so they can keep distance and outgun most troop-type in the game.

You got the FW FAQ rules sonic dread available with EC though, and its freaking awesome. especially that it's technically just a modifier on the helbrute dataslate rather than its own slate-so it CAN use fire frenzy
Sonic dread are pretty awesome. and the benefit from the trait too being a melee threat. their greatest value is in the fact they can shoot rather well AND punch rather well-without being too expensive.

A daemon engine or two can also be nice. having an outlet for the great daemonforge stratagem is always nice.

But honestly, your core should probably be noise boys and sonic dreads.





As for knights-I'm under the impression that currently-a chaos player should avoid knights.
Its an index army. index armies lose to codex armies-we already know that.

The reason is simple, chaos knights just don't match up to imp ones due to far less choices (even though the trait and relic are both nice), the utter lack of "chapter tactics" and a tiny stratagem pool.
You just CANT compete 1v1 with a renegade knight vs an imp one, and with knights, you quickly eat into your points.

When a codex with full options drops this might change-but trying to match imps one for one never works for us, we only win when we take the roads that the imps just don't have equivalents of.
When they have an equivalent, its almost always stocked with far more options, and if not, then at the very least far more options of what to combine it with.

chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

 blackmage wrote:
chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.

 blackmage wrote:
chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

I think the Helverins are worth taking even with no real support (outside of Skarbrand & The Masque, not really worth considering because Helverins aren't for CQC). The 60" is more or less their selling point, autocannons on
that range with D3 is pretty neat. But the point cost isn't really so outstanding imho. 176 pt. is more than the Sicaran hull (by 6, but still), a C-Beam Pred with Las-Sponsons is 1 pt. less. The Warglaive on the other hand profits
from being Chaos (the aformentioned 'buffers') - it's basically a Maulerfiend with a not-so-poop Magma-cutter, but without regen & no advance & charge possibility. Also, while unimported for many - the Conversion possibilities
on these guys - holy moly.

 Zid wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.

true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.

I think it's worth noting that you are doing re-rolls to hit with negative modifiers incorrectly. Re-rolls happen before modifiers, so:

You get 24 shots
16 are 3+ and count as hits
You reroll the 8 dice that are 1s and 2s, getting 5.33 more hits, for a total of 21.33 hits.
Then you subtract 1 from your hits.
This makes your 3s into 2s, meaning they all miss. On average this will be 5.33 rolls of 3.
This makes your total hits 16, which is the normal amount you'd get with BS3+ and no negative modifiers.

It's probably worth remembering that -1 to hit effectively cancels out full re-rolls to hit for BS3+, and vice versa.

Then you do wounds 16 down to 8, 5.33 of which go through for 10.66 damage. This only gets it down one teir, which is still pretty good.

 blackmage wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.

true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.

General 40k tourneys in the U.S. use ITC format, which is very fluid and requires killing and controlling in equal portions. I just feel like an Armiger with AC's will be taken for its kill potential; 4d3 shots at D3 each isn't that bad, even if they are AP -1. But a group of havocs (slanesh) can get up to 8 Lascannon shots a turn which is.... painful. Your right though, Armigers do take AT firepower to bring down, but they are only T7 with a 5++

 blackmage wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.

Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.

true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.

You're also taking them for one of the same reasons you take the Predator: consistent Damage 3 in those Autocannons. Now that Jetbike Captain just needs to 1 less save to die, which is actually pretty crucial.

Hellwright vs Warpsmith

Hellwright
+ STW 5
+ self-heals
+ stronger axe (but not a great melee profile
+ can heal any DAEMON ENGINE regardless of LEGION edit: also Knights
+ gives +1A to HELLFORGED (mainly Contemptors & Leviathans?)
++ Can ride an Abeyant for +1W, +2M, decent short ranged extra gun, larger footprint, 5++; good synergy with joining a Helbrute stampede
? DARK MECHANICUS keyword, who knows where this is going
? very interesting MW pistol but can’t fire other guns at same time

Warpsmith
+++++ cheap
++ can take combi-weapon that synergises with his tentaguns

Anyone field-tested the two?

For whatever it's worth, he can also heal renegade knights.

I really think a superheavy aux detachment with a renegade knight is really good. A dominus or normal renegade knight with a 4++ save is not a small thing. Outside of very few instances, there is not a lot of chances for CSM to get a 4++ save on something with so many wounds and yet be potentially so threatening.

And the meta may be changing because of the IK codex. Even if you don't bring knights, you have to factor facing IK armies, or other armies who do bring knight allies. What is CSM going to use against IK armies?

I keep really really wanting to like the Hellwright, but he's almost as many points as a flying Prince, and just can't carry the synergy for that cost.
His stupid aura and his repair ability conflict for some reason, so if he's using one, he's unable to use the other. Repairing also negates as his fancy guns you pay for. His fancy guns are all different types, so if you want to shoot the awesome soulburner pistol, you can't shoot the laser/melta/flamer stuff.
All in all, he's just a mess. If he was like 30-50 points cheaper, I'd give him a go as a secondary HQ, but his FW pricetag is just too high for what he can effectively bring.