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You deploy them in your DZ like a normal unit, but if you want the option for the infiltration you have to spend a CP when you set the unit up.
After this the player who is going first is determined and now you can (=! must) make use of a move up to 9".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/18 01:34:29
Use this Stratagem when you set up a Stygies VIII unit from your army during deployment. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first.
You pay when you deploy the unit. If you decide you don't want to move, you just don't move. No refunds.
Thankyou. It’s just so much worse than before, I hoped I was reading it wrong. If only you could do it ‘after setup’ once you have assessed options to see if it’s worth it
I dont want to be a pessimist, and who knows how big points drops might change things....but (and there is always a but haha)
The core rules seem to be a bigger problem than the actual points. I really hope in addition to a drop in points there are shiny new toys to purchase next year. That is far more likely to happen imo than the much needed rewrite of the rules.
No concrete information on AdMech unfortunaly, but I think Weasel is right, that the problem we face lie more in the core rules. But sure some point drops wont hurt us ;-)
Lets theorycraft and assume that Kataphrons get a points drop:
Would you consider including them? Which variant? And which Forgeworld do you think works best for them?
They need different weapons for me to consider them, or the current ones but be BS3. BS4 works on robots because they have 5 times as many shots as anything, they dont work on something that only has a few shots. So either more shots and stay at BS4 or a move to BS3 or they benefit from the mind lock buff that regular old servitors get. That would be much better, give them BS3 by having a tech-priest near them.
I actually think a lot of the changes can have cumulative improvements on AdMech. Enough to maybe see pure AdMech, actually.
Cheaper Skitarii and Kataphrons mean cheaper AdMech Battalions. Means cheaper heavy weapon choices.
Actually having Kataphrons mean Kastelans become 3+ through Elimination Volley.
Changing -1 to hit past 12" to cover saves buffs Kastelans (as well as anything with a phosphor weapon) because they ignore cover. It also improves Dragoons and Skitarii because they become relatively tougher choices.
I can see a Mars Battalion with 3x3 Destroyers and 6x Kastelans combined with a Lucius Battalion with tricked out Skitarii MSUs to beta strike. It will look like what we saw in the Index days with Scions. Except our Scions will have 2+ saves in the open and ignore AP-1 (bet you all forgot that that was the Lucius dogma, eh?).
More deep changes I would like to see include changing Rage of the Machines to vehicle units instead of vehicles; Canticle reform, including changing Benediction to RR1 for wounds and changing Electromancer to trigger after a successful charge; and giving us rules for 30k models.
But I will settle for cheaper Skitarii and Kataphrons, along with the cover save change.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/20 19:16:08
How will Lucius Skitarii have a +2 in the open? The cover save for being over 12" away would only apply to Stygies models.
Some problems I could see with your idea (I generally like I though):
- MSU Skitarii means higher cost for deepstriking
- 2 x Batallion means 2-3 useless HQs
I really hope for some kind of Skitarii HQ some day. The HQ tax is just such an incentive not to play solo AdMech..
I can't see Skitarii getting any cheaper (my guess would be that cheap infantry will get more expensive in CA) but Kataphrons definitely need it, the Tech-Priest Dominus could do with a modest decrease and Sicarians would be another obvious one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/20 21:43:08
lash92 wrote: How will Lucius Skitarii have a +2 in the open? The cover save for being over 12" away would only apply to Stygies models.
Some problems I could see with your idea (I generally like I though):
- MSU Skitarii means higher cost for deepstriking
- 2 x Batallion means 2-3 useless HQs
I really hope for some kind of Skitarii HQ some day. The HQ tax is just such an incentive not to play solo AdMech..
Good point. 3+ and ignore AP-1 then. 2+ if you do Stygies.
Well, you would be taking Cawl+Enginseer for Mars and Dominus+Enginseer for Lucius. The Dominus can get the teleporting relic to join in the beta strike. I actually don't think Dominus is too overcosted if you are going to use him in close combat; it's that if he's just an aura caddy, he definitely needs a points reduction. Indeed, I remember back in the days of the AdMech codex's impending release, and I was hoping that we would be able to take more toys, just like the 7E days. If AdMech could do 1/2/3/4 CP for up to 4 relics, that would be lots of fun.
EDIT: Also, something I was thinking about: If we do decide to do Lucius Skitarii, we should look into Custodes allies. Think about it. Turn two, drop 5x5 Vanguard along with one 10x unit with 3x Plasma Calivers. Deep strike a Vexilus Praetor Terminator and maybe a Custodes squad in front of them (Vexilla Teleport Homer lets you drop them within 3"). Skitarii have 3+/5++, ignore AP-1; turn on CPI and hose them with exploding 4s and OC plasma. The front Custodes absorb overwatch, and you have 5 tries to make a 9" charge with the Vanguard to provide their -1T aura, which improves Guardian Spears against T4, T6, and T7 enemies. I think that costs 9 CP altogether though. Haha.
If I have 18 CP, I am going to be burning through it on turns one and two. I doubt we can spend it all in time otherwise.
xlDuke wrote: I can't see Skitarii getting any cheaper (my guess would be that cheap infantry will get more expensive in CA) but Kataphrons definitely need it, the Tech-Priest Dominus could do with a modest decrease and Sicarians would be another obvious one.
I think Guardsmen should cost 5 and Skitarii 6 (both types). They really are awful due to their lack of synergy and tactical flexibility. I mean, Guard have the advantages of bodies, mobility, both HWTs and special weapons, access to transports, auras from various officers and named characters...
Sicarians should just be given their attacks back. Lol.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/11/21 01:18:32
I don't think so. Again, Guard have way more synergy than Skitarii. Catachan with Harker, Mini Priest, and Straken is disgustingly versatile in both shooting and melee. Skitarii also have garbage mobility, weapon range, and our only transport is pretty slow as well.
Suzuteo wrote: Skitarii have 3+/5++... turn on CPI and hose them with exploding 4s and OC plasma.
Maybe I’m having a brainfart but don’t Skitarii have 6++, and cover doesn’t increase invulnerable saves? Also they don’t have anything that can explode on 4s because both Vanguard’s radium carbines and Rangers’ Galvanic Rifles trigger their respective +1dmg and -1 AP effects on the wound roll while CDI only affects the hit roll, iirc.
So nah I probably wouldn’t spend a CP to move 5 dudes into range even with two plasmas apiece. I certainly wouldn’t spend 5 CP doing so for 5 such squads. Turn 1 I’d rather spend 5 CP switching Kastelans to Shooty Mode, Boosting them and the Kataphrons’ to-hit roll, and dumping Wrath of Mars on them - the remaining CP would be for exploding chicken tasers, WoM again on Kastelans and/or on Infiltrators if they get a points drop, and whatever Custodes you wanted squeeze in - they’re CP hungry too.
But we’d need to see significant points drops to fit in a Custodes Vanguard as well as a half-decent low-waste Ad Mech Brigade, I would think. And if you go Patrol then you’re lower on points than you’d said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/21 08:05:10
Ah, wasn’t thinking about the defender banner. Given that math Stygies is still stronger and obvs cheaper on CP, but obviously not protected against enemy shooting turn 1 and you’d have to footslog them into position. Could go with either.
But still, radium carbines procs aren’t affected by +1 or +2 to hit from CPI, because their proc occurs on the wound roll and CPI only affects the hit roll - or am I misremembering? It was wound rolls for procs in the codex anyway, dunno if t was errata’d.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/21 10:36:46
Pomguo wrote: Ah, wasn’t thinking about the defender banner. Given that math Stygies is still stronger and obvs cheaper on CP, but obviously not protected against enemy shooting turn 1 and you’d have to footslog them into position. Could go with either.
But still, radium carbines procs aren’t affected by +1 or +2 to hit from CPI, because their proc occurs on the wound roll and CPI only affects the hit roll - or am I misremembering? It was wound rolls for procs in the codex anyway, dunno if t was errata’d.
Right. If you need a wall, then Stygies or Graia with Custodes might be idea. If you want to attack with special weapons, Lucius.
No, I was the one misremembering. It was only Dragoons that proc on hit. (I haven't used Skitarii in awhile, I guess.)
lash92 wrote: So with Stygies we would basically have Terminator saves on our Skitarii lol.
I know, right? This could be fun. They just need to be cheaper.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/21 11:04:07
Dont overlook agripinaa for a wall vanguard corpuscarii and infiltrators hugely benefit from the 5+ overwatch and the stygies bonus is questionable on your frontline units because many opponents will ignore it by being to close assuming they dont also get rid of the range requirement its not all about SV
U02dah4 wrote: Dont overlook agripinaa for a wall vanguard corpuscarii and infiltrators hugely benefit from the 5+ overwatch and the stygies bonus is questionable on your frontline units because many opponents will ignore it by being to close assuming they dont also get rid of the range requirement its not all about SV
Not sure if the cover save will have a 12" rule. But if you bring along a Custodes unit to counter charge; Vanguard -1T aura plus a S6 or S7 weapon is nuts. Or yeah, Corpuscarii.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/21 20:14:07
There's so much that needs to change to have a viable mono-faction codex. I'll copy some of the text I've written in the 50+ pages long CA thread to express my opinion.
Spoiler:
Aaranis wrote: As for wishlisting I'd like a good sweep of the Adeptus Mechanicus codex by the writing team so that they can read everything that is wrong with this codex. The more I read it the more I say "Why would you write that for this rule ?". There are maximum 5 relics out of 15 who are relatively useful, the others are just a waste of relic slot. 6 Warlords traits out of 13 that are good enough for casual play. Competitively that's 2 good relics and 3 traits. For some reason GW expect us to go vehicle-hunting in CC with our Warlords given that there are quite a handful of stuff to "help" him do that, and it shows they have no idea how the army plays.
There's a few useless stratagems but the worst are some of the Forge-World specific ones, namely Metalica and Ryza. Ryza's one is powerful but it's limited to two units, and only one is truly good to use on. The problem is that we have a Ryza trait (reroll 1s to Wound in CC) that has nothing to do with its stratagem.
Now concerning points there's quite a handful but I'd like them to change the most iconic unit in priority.
The Kastelan Robot. It's easily the number one in our top 3 units because of it's devastating mid-range firepower with the triple Heavy Phosphor loadout. A Robot (65 pts) costs 110 pts this way. Now the base loadout are the Fists (35 pts) and a 12" Heavy Flamer (21) which brings it to 121 pts. We're paying more for a loadout that is harder to use while sacrificing our best weapons and we shouldn't be punished for wanting to play with the Fists.
My solution would be to either give the Kastelan his invul. in CC as well when equipped with Fists (limited to shooting actually) to add some survivability to fill his role of CC smasher and we can keep the costs as it is, or if no changes to the save are made, lower the Fists to 20 pts. That would make a punchy Kastelan 65 + 20 + 21 = 101 pts for a Vehicle that moves 8", has not invul. in CC and hits on a 4+ with only the 1s rerollable with a Canticle. We could even lower the cost of the flamer to 15 because he'll get to fire it once or twice anyway before switching to Punching Protocols to fight twice in CC and by doing so preventing him from shooting. Hardly game-breaking seeing as the only ways to make him go faster would be with Lucius to DS them with a stratagem or Stygies' Infiltration that is on its way to a nerf (glad it's a beta rule so that I can still use it at my LGS.
Concerning the replacement for the Stygies VIII trait, do you guys have a source for this ? You're all talking about +1 to save after 12" but that seems highly unlikely. You really want 1+ Dark Reapers in cover ? We're probably getting a "counts as cover after 12" " and that's it. For the stratagem it's currently a BETA RULE and so can be complained about to death if we want changes. From my point of view it should be given no change, or just say "limited to 3 units" and done. It's already a dangerous stratagem to use, as it requires to have 1st turn and not having it seized after placement.
About Kataphrons, the Destroyers need to be cheapened, 65 pts per model is huge and it's the cheapest option (plasma + phosphor). If given BS3+/WS4+ that would justify the cost a bit more, and I'd reduce their base cost to 25 pts, flamers to 8, grav to 27. That's make all loadouts at 60 pts/model while having BS3+/WS4+.
For the Breachers they're already fair priced I believed, it's just that their weapons are slowed. For starters, all Arc weaponry should be given the Haywire treatment (4+ to Wound on vehicle = 1 MW, 6+ =1d3) so that we can actually hunt vehicles with it (for some reasons the writers of the codex believed the average vehicle to be T5) while keeping the S6. No point changes, they'd be a nice polyvalent weapon and Breachers could be useful for breaching. The torsion cannon is just wrong from the very beginning, it needs to be D3 shots or something and not cost 20 pts for a single shot weapon with 24" range. It could have a nice rule that procs more wounds the tougher the target is or something.
Their CC weapons are also big jokes, same problem with the Arc claw than with other Arc weapons, and seriously, paying extra for the hydraulic claw while it's a D3 damage weapon that hits on 5+ (with AP-1 for some reason) is insane. Make Breachers BS4+/WS3+ at least.
You know what would be great? Adding Holy Requisitioner back in. Ideally, as an ability on Breachers. It would allow them to deploy into reserves and deep strike any time within 6" of a Dominus; this works turn one even if the Dominus is not inside the deployment zone.
So you can Solar Flare onto an objective, then Holy Requisitioner your Breachers in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/21 20:31:12
Suzuteo wrote: You know what would be great? Adding Holy Requisitioner back in. Ideally, as an ability on Breachers. It would allow them to deploy into reserves and deep strike any time within 6" of a Dominus; this works turn one even if the Dominus is not inside the deployment zone.
So you can Solar Flare onto an objective, then Holy Requisitioner your Breachers in.
Oh yeah that would fit nice and fluffy. And that would give you a reason for using the 2CP strat that gives 1A and +1 to saves while near an objective from the end of your turn to the start of your next.
Did you know you could have 2++ Fulgurites with this strat ? With 3A each ?
Still works as long as you don't play where beta rules are applied, but as I understand it most tournaments apply them, which is a shame because they're beta rules and so are not really optimised.
I played a Drill with 11 Fulgurites and my Dominus Warlord with the reroll hits in CC trait and it was really fun seeing the Priests punch everything out of existence.
Fun fact: I actually have enough infantry to do this. My Secutarii will just stand-in for Plasma Calivers. I also will need to borrow some Custodes, which seems like a minor issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/22 07:54:31
Great summary Aaranis Really there are so many design issues which I doubt will be fixed until our next new codex. I'm actually even considering to shelve my AdMech for competitive play, until those issues are fixed....
I actually wouldn't even care if Reapers would be +1 in cover since robots ignore cover :p
As for the use of beta rules: I can't speak for other countries but at least in Germany both of our big tournament series are including them, so no way around for competetive play.
