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So I picked up recently some metal models, e.g. GW Blood Angels Battle brother i think is the model. It is OOP i think. I am working on some others too, so it is not just this one model. Anyhow, I wash the models in soap and water, dry them, prime them with Vallejo Grey surface primer. Airbrush like I normally would and seal it with Vallejo Gloss Varnish. Yet still I can scratch the paint right off. This does not happen with any of my plastic or resin models.

I just painted 7 figures last night (Ral Partha wolf pack) and I tested one and it scratched right down to the metal. When I was doing the BA model, I was painting the power sword and when I lifted the masking tape, the paint underneath pealed right up.

What am I doing wrong? Is this normal with metal?

 Synchro wrote:
So I picked up recently some metal models, e.g. GW Blood Angels Battle brother i think is the model. It is OOP i think. I am working on some others too, so it is not just this one model. Anyhow, I wash the models in soap and water, dry them, prime them with Vallejo Grey surface primer. Airbrush like I normally would and seal it with Vallejo Gloss Varnish. Yet still I can scratch the paint right off. This does not happen with any of my plastic or resin models.

I just painted 7 figures last night (Ral Partha wolf pack) and I tested one and it scratched right down to the metal. When I was doing the BA model, I was painting the power sword and when I lifted the masking tape, the paint underneath pealed right up.

What am I doing wrong? Is this normal with metal?

In between coats I hit metal models with a coat of gloss varnish & then when I'm done painting I do a top coat of minwax polyurethane floor sealer (no stain) followed by a matte varnish & to this point they've all survived pretty well. Bear in mind, I have only 2 GW metal figs, so this is my method for Malifaux models.

I've heard of differences in airbrush primers vs rattlecan primers, as to how tough they are (rattle can being tougher).

I've actually got the same Ral Partha wolf pack of 7, and I primed them with Krylon indoor/outdoor primer (Grey). I've got the typical "Damn it, don't touch the pointy edges/corners too much or it gets shiney" issue, but otherwise it's pretty resilient. Still no sealer on them yet either.

Switch up your primer. If you insist on using an airbrush for priming, use a different medium. Rather than acrylic, get an enamel primer (much tougher). That's what I would do. Just take the appropriate measure for use (ventilation and such).

 fenrir1997 wrote:
I've heard of differences in airbrush primers vs rattlecan primers, as to how tough they are (rattle can being tougher).

Not so much airbrush versus rattlecan - solvent versus water. You can get some excellent airbrush primers that are solvent based (Gunze and Tamiya both make some of the best).

If you use a good quality primer and a good quality clear coat (I recommend solvent based for both on metals since the solvent based ones tend to have etchants as well). They are more durable than water based finishes. Handled properly, they are perfectly safe...and don't worry - polar bears actually know how to swim.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it actually takes upwards of a week for water based paints to actually achieve full strength. If you don't want to use any of the solvent based primers or varnishes (lacquers or enamels) leave the water based paints alone long enough for them to actually set properly. Just because it is dry to the touch, doesn't mean it is done. There is still a lot of cross-linking which goes on for several days after that point.

I use an auto primer on metal models.
It's an etching primer, and holds on to the metal better than a 2yo to their lollipop.

Haven't had a model scratched back to bare metal in a while (but I also varnish mine with gloss and then matt as well).

So I guess I leave the Vallejo primer to the plastic and resin models and use the etching rattle can for metal ones. Sounds like a plan. What do I look for on the can to know if it an etching primer or not?

I really do not like shooting lacquers or enamels from my airbrushes. The smell and clean up are what get me. Mostly the smell. At least with a rattle can, I can do it outdoors.

If you hold it with your hands, the grease in your hands will start rubbing off on it and peel the paint. Latex gloves could help wih that. Or make a hold so you only hold that and not the model.

I have been using Krylon fusion. It has done me good as of late. But for sure seal your models after painting.

Most primers which are marked as metal primers will be self-etching. It will almost always say on the can though, at least the ones I have looked at do.

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/selfEtchingPrimer/

Their Sandable Primer works well too. I normally go to Mr Surfacer though - however since you are looking for a rattle can, that will work well enough (or Tamiya Fine/Super Fine if you prefer smooth surface coats).

I second the use of automotive primer, thats what i used on my metal models and they've held up pretty well over the past 5 years, no sealant or anything.

I'll toss in Rustoleum. Works wonders on everything, and your miniatures will NEVER RUST.

Not like they would either way lol...

...and don't worry - polar bears actually know how to swim.

'cuz I gave 'em safety jackets and duck floaties...

I'm suprised you're scratching right down to metal with a layer of primer!. How are you handling your miniatures?

I've never had this problem with my method... in fact, I've never seen this problem unless theminiature is dropped, or has been coming in contact with other metal miniatures. In which case the density of the materials will bite through the paint.

Here are some things to think about...

1. Wash your miniatures thoroughly! Use an old toothbrush and scrub the figure with a small amount of dish detergent.

2. Wear Nitril gloves while handling your unpainted miniature! This is really important and most people forget to do it. What's the point of scrubing your miniature if you're going to get oils from your hand on 'em.

3. Use a quality primer! Not only does this help bond paint to the figure, but will also prevent oxidation of the metal and the glue to a certain degree. It also protects the figure from light scratches that otherwise would reach the metal.

4. After painting, protect your miniature with a good coat of sealer. I come from a model building background and I used to coat my models with thin layer of Future Floor Wax before I added a wash for the panel lines. I do this with my miniatures as well. It has qualities that prevent the miniature from "yellowing" with age and gives the figure some protection from handling.

Uhlan wrote:
I'm suprised you're scratching right down to metal with a layer of primer!. How are you handling your miniatures?

I've never had this problem with my method... in fact, I've never seen this problem unless theminiature is dropped, or has been coming in contact with other metal miniatures. In which case the density of the materials will bite through the paint.

Here are some things to think about...

1. Wash your miniatures thoroughly! Use an old toothbrush and scrub the figure with a small amount of dish detergent.

I washed them with dish detergent, though I did not scrub them with a tooth brush. I will try that next time.

Uhlan wrote:
2. Wear Nitril gloves while handling your unpainted miniature! This is really important and most people forget to do it. What's the point of scrubing your miniature if you're going to get oils from your hand on 'em.

I have all my models pinned and on wine bottle corks so I am not touching them most times. When I do, I am wearing nitrile gloves.

Uhlan wrote:
3. Use a quality primer! Not only does this help bond paint to the figure, but will also prevent oxidation of the metal and the glue to a certain degree. It also protects the figure from light scratches that otherwise would reach the metal.

I am using a quality primer. I am using Vallejo Surface Primer, shooting from an airbrush.

Uhlan wrote:
4. After painting, protect your miniature with a good coat of sealer. I come from a model building background and I used to coat my models with thin layer of Future Floor Wax before I added a wash for the panel lines. I do this with my miniatures as well. It has qualities that prevent the miniature from "yellowing" with age and gives the figure some protection from handling.

I do use a good varnish on them. I am using a Vallejo Acrylic Gloss Varnish. I have future floor polish, but have not tried that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that it actually takes upwards of a week for water based paints to actually achieve full strength. If you don't want to use any of the solvent based primers or varnishes (lacquers or enamels) leave the water based paints alone long enough for them to actually set properly. Just because it is dry to the touch, doesn't mean it is done. There is still a lot of cross-linking which goes on for several days after that point.

So after I prime, let it dry for a week before painting? Then after I paint, let that dry a week before varnishing? I am willing to give most anything a try at this point.

 Synchro wrote:

Uhlan wrote:
3. Use a quality primer! Not only does this help bond paint to the figure, but will also prevent oxidation of the metal and the glue to a certain degree. It also protects the figure from light scratches that otherwise would reach the metal.

I am using a quality primer. I am using Vallejo Surface Primer, shooting from an airbrush.

As people have pointed out - the fact that it's thinner for airbrush use might be the problem.

I've always used regular Chaos Black (or Vallejo Grey) from a spraycan and I've never had a problem with paint scratching off. Ever. And I have 10 year old armies metal primed in this way. I doubt I even bothered washing them before I primed...

So, the answer seems to be 'spraycan primers are better'.

 ArbitorIan wrote:


So, the answer seems to be 'spraycan primers are better'.

Agreed, going to the hardware store today to get some.

 Synchro wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that it actually takes upwards of a week for water based paints to actually achieve full strength. If you don't want to use any of the solvent based primers or varnishes (lacquers or enamels) leave the water based paints alone long enough for them to actually set properly. Just because it is dry to the touch, doesn't mean it is done. There is still a lot of cross-linking which goes on for several days after that point.

So after I prime, let it dry for a week before painting? Then after I paint, let that dry a week before varnishing? I am willing to give most anything a try at this point.

If you are using waterbased paints - wait a good week before you seal them if you are using a lacquer or urethane clear. If everything is water based - you can go one over the other fairly quick (the layers will actually bond with each other) but after you put the last coat on...leave it sit a good week before you mess with it (try to scratch paint off for example). The resulting paint film will be stronger than if you just wait a day or two.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
If you are using waterbased paints - wait a good week before you seal them if you are using a lacquer or urethane clear. If everything is water based - you can go one over the other fairly quick (the layers will actually bond with each other) but after you put the last coat on...leave it sit a good week before you mess with it (try to scratch paint off for example). The resulting paint film will be stronger than if you just wait a day or two.

Got it. I will give that a whirl with the ones I am currently working on and also test out the automotive primer on another metal model I need to work on.

Thanks everyone for the help and information.

I have found that Armory primer is the best and it is made for mini's. It sounds like the soap you are using may be leaving a film so a good scrub with just water and a tooth brush might help.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Synchro wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that it actually takes upwards of a week for water based paints to actually achieve full strength. If you don't want to use any of the solvent based primers or varnishes (lacquers or enamels) leave the water based paints alone long enough for them to actually set properly. Just because it is dry to the touch, doesn't mean it is done. There is still a lot of cross-linking which goes on for several days after that point.

So after I prime, let it dry for a week before painting? Then after I paint, let that dry a week before varnishing? I am willing to give most anything a try at this point.

If you are using waterbased paints - wait a good week before you seal them if you are using a lacquer or urethane clear. If everything is water based - you can go one over the other fairly quick (the layers will actually bond with each other) but after you put the last coat on...leave it sit a good week before you mess with it (try to scratch paint off for example). The resulting paint film will be stronger than if you just wait a day or two.

Hory Clap! I forgot to mention this as well! I don't use lacquer over a Latex, or other water-based paint. The lacquer, as you might expect, will soften most water-based layer beneath it. This is the main reason I use Future Floor Polish.

You seem to be following most of my recommendations for painting so I'm really surprised. Since I don't shoot my primer from a brush and use a spray can, that may very well be your problem as others have said. Perhaps you're thinning the primer and possibly your paint too much.

Nope, not thinning the primer. Using it straight from the bottle. As for paint, I was using Vallejo Model Air, well agitated and shaken.

I have to think this time it was the not waiting long enough for the paint to truly dry. I will let these puppies sit for a week and then see what happens with them.

Uhlan wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Synchro wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that it actually takes upwards of a week for water based paints to actually achieve full strength. If you don't want to use any of the solvent based primers or varnishes (lacquers or enamels) leave the water based paints alone long enough for them to actually set properly. Just because it is dry to the touch, doesn't mean it is done. There is still a lot of cross-linking which goes on for several days after that point.

So after I prime, let it dry for a week before painting? Then after I paint, let that dry a week before varnishing? I am willing to give most anything a try at this point.

If you are using waterbased paints - wait a good week before you seal them if you are using a lacquer or urethane clear. If everything is water based - you can go one over the other fairly quick (the layers will actually bond with each other) but after you put the last coat on...leave it sit a good week before you mess with it (try to scratch paint off for example). The resulting paint film will be stronger than if you just wait a day or two.

Hory Clap! I forgot to mention this as well! I don't use lacquer over a Latex, or other water-based paint. The lacquer, as you might expect, will soften most water-based layer beneath it. This is the main reason I use Future Floor Polish.

You seem to be following most of my recommendations for painting so I'm really surprised. Since I don't shoot my primer from a brush and use a spray can, that may very well be your problem as others have said. Perhaps you're thinning the primer and possibly your paint too much.

As long as your paints have had a chance to cure properly - you can use a lacquer or other solvent based clear coat over pretty much anything (some alcohol based inks are very touchy though). Remember, probably the most important matte finish which is used...Testor's Dullcote is a lacquer, and while some people do use a coat of gloss acrylic medium (future or otherwise) to act as an intermediary layer between the paint and the lacquer, most do not without any significant ill effect.

Regarding the length of time - http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicaldata/drying.php I seem to recall a more detailed article which was posted by someone a few years back from an Acrylic Paints technical group, but that is good enough for the cliff notes version of it. While a lot of people like to make it seem that miniature paints are special in some way, they really aren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AzureDeath wrote:
I have found that Armory primer is the best and it is made for mini's. It sounds like the soap you are using may be leaving a film so a good scrub with just water and a tooth brush might help.

Well, at least they are marked up and repackaged to be sold in hobby stores. Companies like The Armory or Army Painter don't have the resources to develop their own paints. Most are just bought through B2B channels from one of the big paint companies who manufacturer hardware store brand paints like Krylon or Rustoleum. If you request an MSDS from the company, this generally becomes even more apparent, because the filing matches one of the big branded MSDS sheets.