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I am an author and I have many simple ideas that might be a bit too techy for 40k. But one of the ideas i've had include the use of a naval unit (but not necasarily military) used buy Imperium of Man Planatery defence forces. It's and idea that came up when I found out about Orkimedies, a great Ork Mek boy genius. It said that he made a submarine. So I thought: "If the ORKS can make a water-proof submarine why can't the Imperial PDF at least have a naval unit of some sort?"
Please reply with your thoughts.

Orkimedies:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orkimedes

Thank you for all your replies!
I have now got sufficient opinions to continue with my writing. I will be posting it up when it's ready.

Im sure that some form of Coast Guard/Navy would exist (especially on a water heavy world).
The only reason that navies dont come up very often is that they do very little to prevent against orbital/aerial assaults.

there is nothing to prevent this idea from working. Mr Abnett has already re-written the Battle of Britain for 40k, so why not the Battle of the River Plate or the Bismark engagement

Mr. Abnett doesn't care very much for what GW books might say, however, so results may vary depending on how much an individual author is willing to deviate from original sources.

In this case, however, I agree that there doesn't seem to be anything in the established fluff that would hint at naval PDF units being weird. In fact, the Armageddon articles which the Ork submersibles were a part of also mentioned tanker hulls being converted to troopships for the Orks to ferry their hordes across the polluted oceans, so obviously there are some ships. As Lightcavalier mentioned, there's lots of drawbacks involved when it comes to nautical navies, so it's no surprise that the IoM as a whole wouldn't think too highly of them.

Planetary invasions are fought in the air and on the land; no invading army actually drops ships into the ocean, so there's not much point in keeping navies around to fight them. That the Orks actually bothered to build some came as a huge surprise for the Imperials, which is why Hive Tempestora was caught off-guard and fell to the greenskin tide after a long and bloody battle (culminating in the fall of St. Katherine's basilica and the Order of Our Martyred Lady changing the colour of their robes from black to red due to the massive losses they suffered). Given this incident and the continued state of war on Armageddon, it would not surprise me if the Imperials were to begin quickly building their own ships now to clear out the Ork presence from their oceans, assuming that the Imperial Navy's air force is unable to fight those submersibles and simply bomb them into oblivion.

PDFs in general can feature a multitude of reasons for why they bother with nautical ships. It's true that aerial transportation is much quicker and more efficient, and orbital stations or systems defence monitors may attack ground targets from the safety of orbit, but there is some room for nautical units when it comes to less developed worlds or even the sort of internal rivalries between nobles and merchant clans where Imperial forces do not care enough to interfere. You may have merchant companies battling it out on the oceans, you may have a bunch of nobles doing duels on the high seas with steampowered ironclads, or you may have Viking-style tribesmen braving the waters of their feral world on longships.

There was at least one patrol gunboat in White Dwarf as part of Golden demon or similar.

Dense jungle / river deltas or similar may be patrolled by such craft....or a Noble might just fancy having a Yacht and clasify it as an PDF armed patrol craft under his or her command.

Seem to remember similar thing happening in BattleTech where the nobles of a Steiner (?) world fulfilled their duty to act as a militia by having armed patrol craft.........and for some time it was a glorified yacht club until Kurita invaded - then to everyones suprise they fought with distinction.

 Lynata wrote:
Planetary invasions are fought in the air and on the land; no invading army actually drops ships into the ocean...

The first recorded Tyranid invasion was on the aquatic world of Tyran. If they had had a navy they may have seen all the monsters making their way to the shoreline.

Oh yeah, and in Battleship and Battle for LA the invading forces made planetfall intot he oceans.

It actually makes a lot of sense making planetfall in oceans. Less obstructions, less defences and more space to deploy (at least on earth).

This gets asked every month or so.

Worlds with any amount of large bodies of water have boats, as they are still easier to make than planes and air/space ships. A good example is a peice of fluff in WD around the time of one of the Tyranid codex releases that describes a Tyranid invasion.

The PDF had boats and submarines to try and fight aquatic tyranids but are soon overwhelmed.

Also remember that all Space Marine tanks can fight on sea floors and the chimera is also an aquatic craft.

DeffDred wrote:It actually makes a lot of sense making planetfall in oceans. Less obstructions, less defences and more space to deploy (at least on earth).

That's true, but most 40k armies seem to be geared for a more "traditional" approach and thus limited to a singular environment. If they had a vehicle that fights on land as good as it fights in the ocean, on the other hand ... Tau gravtanks would work, wouldn't they?

iirc, in Battle for LA they also deployed rather close to the beaches and not on the open sea ... just making planetfall in the water still doesn't have to mean that any fighting will actually happen there. For a defence fleet to be of any use in such an event, the enemy would have to deliberately deploy his forces far enough away from where he intends to strike so that these ships will actually be able to reach him in time. Not to mention that this would give the defenders ample opportunity to prepare their own ground forces for the confrontation rather than being surprised by giant troop ships landing mere kilometers away from their positions.
All in all, it sounds like a bad strategy that would only make sense if any other region of the planet is covered by such a massive array of defensive guns that deploying anywhere nearby is out of the question. Also, any capabilities whose application is limited to a nautical environment will, of course, be useless on planets that have no or little water (or equivalent liquid).

Didn't know the bit about the Tyranids, though. Good catch.

BluntmanDC wrote:Also remember that all Space Marine tanks can fight on sea floors and the chimera is also an aquatic craft.

I know that power armour is environmentally sealed, but tanks rolling across the ocean floor sounds a bit silly. I don't even think half the weapons would work, tbh. Where is that from?

 Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Also remember that all Space Marine tanks can fight on sea floors and the chimera is also an aquatic craft.

I know that power armour is environmentally sealed, but tanks rolling across the ocean floor sounds a bit silly. I don't even think half the weapons would work, tbh. Where is that from?

The marine codex entry for the land raider has one emerging out of a lake behind Tau lines. It does state that deep sea pressures are not a problem. Lascannon's likly will not work but it can still transport just fine.

Veldrain wrote:The marine codex entry for the land raider has one emerging out of a lake behind Tau lines. It does state that deep sea pressures are not a problem. Lascannon's likly will not work but it can still transport just fine.

Huh, something to keep in mind I guess. I know that these vehicles can be sealed when it comes to the passenger compartment, but I'm still left wondering what happens when all that water is clogging up the four giant exhausts. Does it come with air tanks for the combustion engine?
But I guess it's best not to think about that stuff too much ...

Now I wonder whether or not this would apply to the Rhino as well. That's an extremely adaptive platform too, after all.
Anyhow, thanks for the answer!

Well, when you think about it. A navy might be a rare thing on a planet that isn't dominated by water.

If its got one single landmass(or a few close together) its going to be much quicker to fly then to float. As far as transportation is concerned.

As far as military power, a couple of orbital platforms with Lance batteries or Hangers will project enough power to make any sea vessel a sitting duck.


The only time I see a water navy being in effect is on a planet almost completely covered in water or one where the weather makes airpower unfeasable.

Veldrain wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Also remember that all Space Marine tanks can fight on sea floors and the chimera is also an aquatic craft.

I know that power armour is environmentally sealed, but tanks rolling across the ocean floor sounds a bit silly. I don't even think half the weapons would work, tbh. Where is that from?

The marine codex entry for the land raider has one emerging out of a lake behind Tau lines. It does state that deep sea pressures are not a problem. Lascannon's likly will not work but it can still transport just fine.

IIRc here is a whole underwater battle between the Tau underwater forces and the (again IIRC Adapted) Space Marine vehicles - I guess its a bit like fighting in a vacumn or other hostile environments - the Astartes and other Imperial forces will have ways of coping / prcoedures, weapon adaptions etc.

Mr Morden wrote:IIRc here is a whole underwater battle between the Tau underwater forces and the (again IIRC Adapted) Space Marine vehicles - I guess its a bit like fighting in a vacumn or other hostile environments - the Astartes and other Imperial forces will have ways of coping / prcoedures, weapon adaptions etc.

I take it you're referring to the Land Raider source already mentioned above (-> Codex: Space Wolves 5E, btw, it's just filled with crazy stuff) - but if so, it may be worth pointing out that they were apparently used solely to transport their cargo of Terminator Marines to the battle site, where they disembark and engage Tau Battlesuits mano-a-mano. The book also mentions the IG being "unable to engage the enemy underwater", and how the Tau had fitted propellers to their suits in an effort to adapt to their underwater base environment.

"Adaption" and hastily whipped up modifications aren't really something the Imperium is well-known for, but I guess that's a matter of how you interpret its background when it comes to technology and the AdMech.

The LR entry on p81 of the present SM codex says:

"The Land Raider can also function without ill-effect under extreme pressures of Submarine environments, using its powerful tracks to traverse sea and river beds......"

Whils the Imperium may not be renowned for adaptive nature, I meant that many of the elite fighting formations will have formulated traditions and methods of fighting in the void, under water or other unique terrain....

In addition soliders are often adaptve in order to survive and even the Astartes have produced battlefield modifcaitons that are later "authorised"

Well, Power Armor is sealed so I see no problem with them fighting underwater. Even if they open the doors to their vehicles under water they won't have any ill effects, and I imagine the vehicles engines can operate underwater.

In H.Zou's "Flesh and Iron" afair were imperial _oceanic_ battleships proper - though in part of book i forced myself to read, they've been "red hulls" for insurgent's superheavy weapon.

 Lynata wrote:

Veldrain wrote:The marine codex entry for the land raider has one emerging out of a lake behind Tau lines. It does state that deep sea pressures are not a problem. Lascannon's likly will not work but it can still transport just fine.

Huh, something to keep in mind I guess. I know that these vehicles can be sealed when it comes to the passenger compartment, but I'm still left wondering what happens when all that water is clogging up the four giant exhausts. Does it come with air tanks for the combustion engine?
But I guess it's best not to think about that stuff too much ...

Now I wonder whether or not this would apply to the Rhino as well. That's an extremely adaptive platform too, after all.
Anyhow, thanks for the answer!

Swap out the ICE for a fusion plant and you're golden You'll even be surrounded by lots of lovely cooling water in case of accidents/battle damage.

Las weapons would be stuffed by the environment, but bolters would probably work better than normal bullets. also the armour would stop the firer being liquefied by the pressure wave caused by firing a chemical propellant weapon underwater

there is a book where the PDF does have a Navy ...... Flesh and Iron by Henery Zhu , Could read that for some inspiration . but mainly only few worlds have PDFs that would be able to Reliably maintain an effective Navy ( Cadia, Ultamar ect.) they would have to be an " elitest" PDF consider the amount of training that goes into professonal soldiers in Americans Navy for Nuclear Submarines , now try and put that on a part time Milita , he will be lazy on matinance and make mistakes


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 BluntmanDC wrote:
This gets asked every month or so.

Worlds with any amount of large bodies of water have boats, as they are still easier to make than planes and air/space ships. A good example is a peice of fluff in WD around the time of one of the Tyranid codex releases that describes a Tyranid invasion.

The PDF had boats and submarines to try and fight aquatic tyranids but are soon overwhelmed.

Also remember that all Space Marine tanks can fight on sea floors and the chimera is also an aquatic craft.

The Chimera is not Aquatic , its Amphibious , It has no abliity what so ever to " drive " along the ocean floor as you are suggesting , it is merley conditioned like this for versitility , think about a BTR-80 ( closes actual relitive to the Chimera ) its Amphibious and can have NBC gear ( Nuclear , Biological & Chemical ) but it is not perfectly airtight on top , fire ports , Turret housing everying ........... Space marine tanks ok i get , but not Chimeras ........not to mention the Pressure would crush em like a tin can

Flinty wrote:Swap out the ICE for a fusion plant and you're golden You'll even be surrounded by lots of lovely cooling water in case of accidents/battle damage.

I'm not sure this is feasible, else shouldn't all SM vehicles run on fusion plants by now? Clearly it's a superior means of powering stuff. Plus, such modifications may sound rather extreme .. if not heretical to the AdMech and the Techmarines.

Flinty wrote:Las weapons would be stuffed by the environment, but bolters would probably work better than normal bullets.

But bolt weapons are fired just like normal bullets, the rocket motor only kicks in after the projectile left the barrel.
Although I think they could just load Stalker shells, which are apparently propelled entirely via pressurised gas to reduce sound and velocity for stealth. Those should work nicely underwater.

As mentioned before - I think the Astartes and other units such as the Soritas should have formal tactics (evolved over millennia) and weapon modifications (approved by the Ad Mech) to deal with hostile environments in the same way as there are codex camouflage schemes for many many environments.

Those Guard units that are expected to fight in such environments again are likely equipped as per doctrine or die/learn to adapt really quickly - likely the former.

The Mechanicus will also be able to adapt or field Skitarii and other warriors/war engines/weapons that are using technology approved over centuries.

Whilst the Imperium does not usually adapt quickly - the millennia of war will mean that they have encountered very many things and have formulated / constructed ways of dealing with it. Now, whether that information / technology is available to the troops on the ground will vary.

According to some FFG stuff, planets can't have their own navies. But this is the kind of thing where fluff discrepancies appear.

 Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:Swap out the ICE for a fusion plant and you're golden You'll even be surrounded by lots of lovely cooling water in case of accidents/battle damage.

I'm not sure this is feasible, else shouldn't all SM vehicles run on fusion plants by now? Clearly it's a superior means of powering stuff. Plus, such modifications may sound rather extreme .. if not heretical to the AdMech and the Techmarines.

Flinty wrote:Las weapons would be stuffed by the environment, but bolters would probably work better than normal bullets.

But bolt weapons are fired just like normal bullets, the rocket motor only kicks in after the projectile left the barrel.
Although I think they could just load Stalker shells, which are apparently propelled entirely via pressurised gas to reduce sound and velocity for stealth. Those should work nicely underwater.

Power armour is powered by a micro-fusion plant already, so modifying vehicles should be realtively easy. They would just be really complicated compared to ICEs so why use them if you don't need to?

All modern firearms can fire underwater as the propellant charge includes its own oxidiser. Its just that the water slows bullets down really fast and the pressure wave created by the firing of the propellant causes injuries. therefore a bolter would be less affected. The initial charge will allow the round to clear the barrel and the rocket motor will make it effectively a min-rocket powered torpedo.

 DOOMBREAD wrote:
According to some FFG stuff, planets can't have their own navies. But this is the kind of thing where fluff discrepancies appear.

Can you check please - did it say about seagoing Navy or - what's common now and utterly wrong - "Navy" is misused as word for spacegoing military fleet.

BTW word "marine" is also of similar heritage....thus in russian official translation of WH40K it's translated not as morpekh ("naval infantryman") but as dehsantnik , roughly "drop/landing trooper" - from french word descente

The book Flesh and Iron will solve your problem. In fact, read BL's extract.

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