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Are there any? Any at all? Anywhere? Forgeworld or something? Anything? Anything at all?????

:/

EDIT - the only thing I can find is the Sky Ray's AA Mount upgrade in IA3:Taros - does this still work? 30pts upgrade to allow you to fire Seeker Missiles at aircraft....

The Tau list in Epic Armageddon uses Skyrays as AA vehicles with "Hunter" missiles as an option, rather than Seeker missiles. Otherwise I don't think there is any GW based AA for Tau (other than the forgeworld Tau aerospace assets, obviously).

 Flinty wrote:
The Tau list in Epic Armageddon uses Skyrays as AA vehicles with "Hunter" missiles as an option, rather than Seeker missiles. Otherwise I don't think there is any GW based AA for Tau.

Aha - just edited the post and then saw this. There are rules for an AA Mount upgrade in IA3, but I'm not sure if it still works in 6ed??

The problem with the AA mount rules is that they don't actually give you the "Skyfire" special rule.

 Flinty wrote:
The problem with the AA mount rules is that they don't actually give you the "Skyfire" special rule.

Although they seem to have their own special rule which has the same effect...

IA3 pg309 wrote:An anti-aircraft mount allows the weapon to shoot at Flyers using it's normal BS, rather than only hitting on a 6

Remora Drones?
Flyers can shoot at other Flyers with no problems right?

They have two seeker missiles, networked markerlight, and twin linked long barreled burst cannons (36 inch range). They also have a stealth field generator.

All of that for 110 points!

XV8-Ownage! wrote:
Remora Drones?
Flyers can shoot at other Flyers with no problems right?

They have two seeker missiles, networked markerlight, and twin linked long barreled burst cannons (36 inch range). They also have a stealth field generator.

All of that for 110 points!

Of course! Flyers can choose to Skyfire. Much easier!

And I already have two remoras, unbuilt. Time to get building...

Remoras are trash. Shrouded is nice, but they've always been overcosted and the new IA book didn't give them the same reduction in point cost that most other flyers got (including the Barracuda). 100+ points is just way too much for a TL BC and a markerlight, especially now that the Barracuda occupies the same slot. The only thing they're even remotely useful for is counting as Piranhas, since they're roughly the same size.

Barracudas are awesome. You get a LOT of firepower for a very low point cost, and you now get to take them in fast attack instead of having to give up a Broadside slot. The only drawback is AV 10/2 HP, but they're cheap enough that it doesn't matter all that much.

Sky Rays are broken. RAW the AA mount still works, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing people to let you continue to use a 4th edition book that was printed before even the current (ancient) Tau codex entry for the Sky Ray and hasn't been updated since then. And of course even if you can use it, I'm not really convinced that a rack of BS 3 hunter-killer missiles is a very effective AA unit. Hopefully someday we'll see a proper update for the Sky Ray that gives it proper 6th edition AA rules, but until then it's not really an option.

Firewarriors have S5 small arms. Most fliers are AV11.

Hmm...

 Ailaros wrote:
Firewarriors have S5 small arms. Most fliers are AV11.

Actually, most flyers are AV 10 or 12. And given that the AV 12 ones are so effective (and therefore likely to appear in your opponent's army), depending on STR 5 guns just isn't good enough. It's nice that your basic troops can at least roll dice against AV 10/11 flyers as a last resort, but it's not a substitute for proper AA units.

Sure, you'd need something special for those few armies that throw down storm ravens or vendettas, but seriously. Against AV10, even with snap firing, a squad of firewarriors puts down a hull point per turn of shooting. A single troops choice can handle most fliers with time to spare to nearly handle another.

If it can be handled with nothing more than small arms, you really don't need anything more to handle it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Sure, you'd need something special for those few armies that throw down storm ravens or vendettas, but seriously. Against AV10, even with snap firing, a squad of firewarriors puts down a hull point per turn of shooting. A single troops choice can handle most fliers with time to spare to nearly handle another.

Don't forget the opportunity cost of having your units shooting flyers at BS 1 instead of other targets at BS 3 (or better). It might not matter against 100% flyerspam with no real non-flyer units on the table, but against more balanced armies it's a pretty serious price to pay. You'll gladly pay it in some situations, sure, but in list construction you still want to bring proper AA units to deal with even AV 10/11 flyers.

And I wouldn't really say only a few armies bring Stormravens or Vendettas when the Vendetta is so good that it's often worth taking IG allies just to get one and the Stormraven is a popular choice in armies that can take one. You might not see them every game, but they're going to be common enough that you have to consider them a serious threat and take effective counters.

But ANYTHING has an opportunity cost by shooting at one unit and not another.

And if you're ONLY playing against GK and vendetta-spam guard, then yeah, you'll need to do something else. For the many, many other armies out there, though...

 Ailaros wrote:
But ANYTHING has an opportunity cost by shooting at one unit and not another.

I'm talking about opportunity cost beyond just a choice of which unit receives the same shots. By shooting at flyers instead of ground targets you lose 2/3 of your shots (more if you would have used markerlights). You don't just direct them at something else, they're gone, period.

And if you're ONLY playing against GK and vendetta-spam guard, then yeah, you'll need to do something else. For the many, many other armies out there, though...

It doesn't have to be spam to be relevant. Just look at how many armies can take IG allies with a single Vendetta. Will every army actually do it? No, but it's going to be a lot more common than just dedicated Vendetta-spam IG once people have time to buy and build allied forces, and you can't just let 3x TL LC fly around inflicting instant death on your key battlesuits.

Peregrine wrote:

Ailaros wrote:But ANYTHING has an opportunity cost by shooting at one unit and not another.

I'm talking about opportunity cost beyond just a choice of which unit receives the same shots. By shooting at flyers instead of ground targets you lose 2/3 of your shots (more if you would have used markerlights). You don't just direct them at something else, they're gone, period.

It doesn't matter what your BS is. It matters that you kill the most threatening thing at any given time. The cost you're describing isn't an opportunity cost proper, as if a flier is the most important thing to shoot at, then it's the most important thing to shoot at. Really, the opportunity cost is NOT shooting at a flier if it's the most important thing to shoot at.

And come on, markerlighting a flier? Let's get back to the world of the real.

 Ailaros wrote:
It doesn't matter what your BS is. It matters that you kill the most threatening thing at any given time. The cost you're describing isn't an opportunity cost proper, as if a flier is the most important thing to shoot at, then it's the most important thing to shoot at. Really, the opportunity cost is NOT shooting at a flier if it's the most important thing to shoot at.

You're missing the point here.

Yes, in the middle of a game it will sometimes be the correct decision to shoot fire warriors at a flyer.

However, my point is that you should NOT consider fire warriors sufficient AA in list construction, because the opportunity cost of using them that way is way too high to consider it as a primary strategy. Planning to regularly throw away 2/3 of your unit's firepower (or more) is just plain stupid when better AA units are available. Instead, the correct way to look at it is to consider the AA ability of fire warriors a nice side bonus that you'll only use as a last resort.

And come on, markerlighting a flier? Let's get back to the world of the real.

I'm talking about markerlighting ground units.

Normally fire warriors shoot at BS 3, so having them shoot at flyers instead of a ground target means you throw away 2/3 of their firepower. However, if you would have given them markerlight support against the ground target, the wasted firepower climbs to 3/4 or even 4/5. Granted, you'll usually have better things to do with your markerlights, but my point is that you're throwing away a minimum of 2/3 of your firepower.

If you want to stay in the realm of pure codex, then the answer is painfully obvious.

Broadsides and Deathrains.

Both pack twin-linked systems as their main attack methods, meaning 30% hit per shot, deathrains get 2 shots that might do some damage and are pretty cheap, broadsides only get one shot-but it usually only needs one clean hit.

Peregrine wrote:Barracudas are awesome. You get a LOT of firepower for a very low point cost, and you now get to take them in fast attack instead of having to give up a Broadside slot. The only drawback is AV 10/2 HP, but they're cheap enough that it doesn't matter all that much.

Sky Rays are broken. RAW the AA mount still works, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing people to let you continue to use a 4th edition book that was printed before even the current (ancient) Tau codex entry for the Sky Ray and hasn't been updated since then. And of course even if you can use it, I'm not really convinced that a rack of BS 3 hunter-killer missiles is a very effective AA unit. Hopefully someday we'll see a proper update for the Sky Ray that gives it proper 6th edition AA rules, but until then it's not really an option.

Not sure about likelihood/legality.

As far as I'm aware, Remoras and SkyRays are both things that might regularly be taken in game - I wouldn't have a problem using Remoras in a regular game, and FW-friendly tournaments are likely to allow them. However, with SPs, Barracudas fall into the realm of 'Apocalype only'

Did the new IA book change this?

Peregrine wrote:However, my point is that you should NOT consider fire warriors sufficient AA in list construction, because the opportunity cost of using them that way is way too high to consider it as a primary strategy. Planning to regularly throw away 2/3 of your unit's firepower (or more) is just plain stupid when better AA units are available. Instead, the correct way to look at it is to consider the AA ability of fire warriors a nice side bonus that you'll only use as a last resort.

I agree - mostly because I don't have a lot of Fire Warriors. I have a very suit-heavy army, and losing their firing for a slim chance to hit isn't a great thing..

allaros wrote:And come on, markerlighting a flier? Let's get back to the world of the real.

Depends how you play the contentious Markerlight/Seeker/Flyer rules. The vast majority of people seem to be playing that, once the Markerlight has hit, the seeker still gets it's BS5. If this is the case, them the Remora's ability to Skyfire markerlights becomes useful...

BoomWolf wrote:Broadsides and Deathrains.

I assume 'Deathrains' means TL Missile Pods, right? Good idea....

 Ailaros wrote:
But ANYTHING has an opportunity cost by shooting at one unit and not another.

And if you're ONLY playing against GK and vendetta-spam guard, then yeah, you'll need to do something else. For the many, many other armies out there, though...

1/36 chance to simply glance an av11 flyer is not sufficient, especialy when it forces you to buy a unit which is on itself quite sucky ( instead of buying spacemarines allies for example).
Crisis suits with almost 1/6 chance per (twinlinked) missile to cause a glance/pen against av11 are the better,although still not particularly impressive, choice.

Good point suddenly raised by KingDeath. ALLIES.

I'm planning on building a little Gue'vesa IG detachment. What in THEIR list has Skyfire? Hydras?

Yep. pretty much the ultimate form for AA guns right now, if you plan on guard allies anyway-hydra will take care of all your anti-air needs.

And yes, deathrain are twin-linked missile-pod suits, usually with a flamer, BSF or TA as the third slot.

Dx-6 Remora Drone fighter and the Barracuda air supiroraty fighter from Imperial Armour Airnotica can perhaps help you.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Remoras and SkyRays are both things that might regularly be taken in game - I wouldn't have a problem using Remoras in a regular game, and FW-friendly tournaments are likely to allow them. However, with SPs, Barracudas fall into the realm of 'Apocalype only'

Did the new IA book change this?

To clarify: the Barracuda is just a standard flyer, like the Thunderbolt/Valkyrie/etc, and is a fast attack choice for normal 40k games. The superheavy flyers are the Tigershark, Orca and Manta.

Twin link kills things. Also sit someone on a defense line if needbe however Tau are in a good spot where it comes from flyers. If they go flyer heavy you stand a good chance to maul the set up remnants before reinforcements. If they go flyer light then spending a turn mowing it down with twin link you do great.

TL Broadsides, Remoras directing seeker missiles to the platform, Barracuda who get the first shot, allies if necessary. It's not a neat, tournament-happy codex list, but the easiest way to solve that problem is simply to not participate in badly-run tournaments.