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The FAQs now are all in agreement, having changed these rules to function if the vehicle moved over 6 inches, rather than if the vehicle moved flat out. Despite this they still don't override the restriction which prevents models from disembarking from a Zooming Flyer.

Given you can only move 12 inches in the movement phase (when in hover mode and acting as a fast skimmer), and that, by using these maneuvers the disembarking models sacrifice their ability to make a full 6 inch disembark move by virtue of using the deep strike rules, the end result we have is that, you get to move your hovering flyer up to 6 inches further, with no extra distance for the squad inside, in exchange for incurring all sorts of horrible penalties on the disembarking unit.

Is there something I'm overlooking or is this really the state of the flying transports?

Remember that specific rules trump generic rules. In this case Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion are specific rules for the model, so they would override the restriction against disembarking from a zooming flier.

Lansirill wrote:
Remember that specific rules trump generic rules. In this case Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion are specific rules for the model, so they would override the restriction against disembarking from a zooming flier.

Not even slightly.
That rule is used in the event of a conflict.
If it said it could be used while zooming, that would be a specific rule that trumps the disembarking restriction.
It doesn't. Nothing in the rule overrides the restriction.

Lansirill wrote:
Remember that specific rules trump generic rules. In this case Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion are specific rules for the model, so they would override the restriction against disembarking from a zooming flier.

By the same token couldn't units disembarking from Assault Vehicles perform a "Run" in their shooting phase before assaulting? After all, Assault Vehicle is more specific than Run, so the permission to assault after disembarking from an Assault Vehicle trumps the more general restriction against assaulting after Running.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying: No, that's not how the "specific trumps general" functionality works, because there is no direct clash between "you can disembark when moving over 6 inches" and "you can't disembark from a zooming flyer"

I wouldn't say they are useless, just less effective. You have to use them with more strategy, which seems to be the point of this edition. No more special rule spam, you have to think about what you are doing before you do it.

Lansirill wrote:
Remember that specific rules trump generic rules. In this case Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion are specific rules for the model, so they would override the restriction against disembarking from a zooming flier.

Correct.

Skies of Blood/Shadow says you may still disembark if the vehicle is moving over 6". A Zooming flyer is moving over 6".

 Mannahnin wrote:

Lansirill wrote:
Remember that specific rules trump generic rules. In this case Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion are specific rules for the model, so they would override the restriction against disembarking from a zooming flier.

Correct.

Skies of Blood/Shadow says you may still disembark if the vehicle is moving over 6". A Zooming flyer is moving over 6".

But it's still zooming. Which adds another restriction, you can't disembark from a zooming flyer. This restriction has nothing to do with movement distance.
If you couldn't disembark from a zooming flyer purely because it must move more than 6" then those rules would allow disembarking. But the restriction is zooming, not distance.
Just like assaulting out of an assault vehicle that's arrived from reserve. You have permission to assault after disembarking, but no permission to assault from reserve, so it can't be done. Here there is no permission to disembark while zooming.

Page 79 (First paragraph, which is actually only one sentence) says you cannot disembark if you move more than 6". This is a restriction on transports.

Page 80 (Flyer section, right side, last sentence in the middle of the column) says you cannot embark or disembark from a Zooming flyer. This is a restriction on flyers.

Skies of Blood/Grav Chute Insertion eliminate the restriction for transports. They say nothing about the restriction for Flyers.

Likely this is because those flyers have Hover mode, while the Necron transport does not. The Necrons NEED a way to disembark from their zooming flyer as it cannot Hover. So their special rule lets them disembark from their transport while zooming.

I just don't understand this FAQ ruling then:

Q: Can units embarked on a Flyer (Transport) make use of any special disembarkation rules for their passengers (such as Skies of Blood or Grav Chute Insertion) if the vehicle has suffered a Crew Shaken/ Stunned or Locked Velocity? (p81)
A: Yes.

Since you can only get locked velocity while zooming, it seems to suggest that using those special disembark rules should work.

Well, that does create a pretty interesting conflict there...

Still makes sense. Locked Velocity does not cause a restriction; that does not mean that all other restrictions are lifted.

In this case, special rules usable while zooming, are still usable even if you are zooming and the velocity is locked.

overkongen wrote:
I just don't understand this FAQ ruling then:

Q: Can units embarked on a Flyer (Transport) make use of any special disembarkation rules for their passengers (such as Skies of Blood or Grav Chute Insertion) if the vehicle has suffered a Crew Shaken/ Stunned or Locked Velocity? (p81)
A: Yes.

Since you can only get locked velocity while zooming, it seems to suggest that using those special disembark rules should work.

It does work which prior to the FAQ meant that Shadow Skies was useless if the Stormraven got locked... Now it works fine.

So, we all agree you can use Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion from a zooming flyer?

No. You have permission to disembark from a Flyer that moved more than 6", but no permission overriding disembarking from a zooming Flyer restriction.

If you had permission to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. Invasion Beams) and you suffered Locked Velocity you could still disembark.

I just don't get why the FAQ would mention that Skies of Blood and Grav Chute Insertion can be used by a flyer with locked velocity then.

Why does GW do anything, regarding the rules?

Happyjew wrote:
No. You have permission to disembark from a Flyer that moved more than 6", but no permission overriding disembarking from a zooming Flyer restriction.

If you had permission to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. Invasion Beams) and you suffered Locked Velocity you could still disembark.

You are wrong. You can disembark out of a zooming flyer now using shadow skies as it was intended. The FAQ proves raw is not the end all be all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
No. You have permission to disembark from a Flyer that moved more than 6", but no permission overriding disembarking from a zooming Flyer restriction.

If you had permission to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. Invasion Beams) and you suffered Locked Velocity you could still disembark.

You are wrong. You can disembark out of a zooming flyer now using shadow skies as it was intended. The FAQ proves raw is not the end all be all.

So you have a rule that specifically allows you to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. invasion Beams)? If so I would like to see it. Otherwise you are arguing HYWPI, not RaW.

Many of the answers in the new FAQs don't follow RAW so why should I? I want to have meaningful discussions when I discuss the rules. Look at the quote below:

Q: Can units embarked on a Flyer (Transport) make use of any special disembarkation rules for their passengers (such as Skies of Blood or Grav Chute Insertion) if the vehicle has suffered a Crew Shaken/Stunned or Locked Velocity? (p81)
A: Yes.

It's obvious this is in reference to flyers that are transports such as Storrmravens and Vendettas. It also applies to Nightscythes.

Happyjew wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
No. You have permission to disembark from a Flyer that moved more than 6", but no permission overriding disembarking from a zooming Flyer restriction.

If you had permission to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. Invasion Beams) and you suffered Locked Velocity you could still disembark.

You are wrong. You can disembark out of a zooming flyer now using shadow skies as it was intended. The FAQ proves raw is not the end all be all.

So you have a rule that specifically allows you to disembark from a Zooming Flyer (i.e. invasion Beams)? If so I would like to see it. Otherwise you are arguing HYWPI, not RaW.

The Faq allows you to disembark from a vehicle with locked velocity using grav chute and skies of blood. Only zooming flyers suffer locked velocity. You can therefore use Grav Chute, Skies of Blood and Dark Skies from a zooming flyer.

Simple.

So a nightscythe with locked velocity can still disembark passengers.


*ALL* that FAQ does is say that Locked Velocity does not apply a restriction on disembarking. It does *not* allow you to ignore any and all other restrictions.

It's implicit in that FAQ answer, that Skies of Blood/Shadow Skies/Grav Chute Insertion can be used while Zooming. Because Zooming is the only time you can have your velocity locked.

That is a heck of a leap. It is a question dealing with multiple types of 'special disembarkation' and how they react with 3 different situations.

To assume it means to counter every other possible restriction on disembarking does not seem to follow.


The rule needs to specifically override the restriction, which it does not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:

Skies of Blood/Shadow says you may still disembark if the vehicle is moving over 6". A Zooming flyer is moving over 6".

Using this exact logic, you could assault out of a land raider even from reserves.


There are two restrictions here.
You may not disembark if the transport moves over 6"
You may not disembark if the transport is Zooming.

There are people that do say you can assault out of a land raider even out of reserves, but that aside, I'd agree with Mannahnin here. For the FAQ to answer a question affirmative (yes you can), the question has to be valid. The only way for the question to be valid is if you can disembark from a Zooming Flyer with the given SR. Therefore, it show that the SR's use from a Zooming Flyer is valid.

I'm in agreement that the FAQ is a strong indicator of intent, and it's exactly the sort of thing I suspected I might be overlooking in starting the thread.

Obviously I agree the RAW is fundamentally flawed (it seems GW don't understand how their own rules work), But as I can't find an adequate explanation for why that FAQ would exist if they didn't intend for these special rules to be used while in Flyer mode I have no choice but to assume that was the intention.

Unles the question is also a requirement, strange as it sounds a strict reading could be they can use Grav Chute only if suffering from locked velocity while zooming.

 Lobukia wrote:
There are people that do say you can assault out of a land raider even out of reserves.

Yes but those people are wrong. Fortunately they clarified that in the FAQ:

Q: Do Transports with the Assault Vehicle special rule permit their passengers to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve? (p33) A: No.

 Lobukia wrote:
There are people that do say you can assault out of a land raider even out of reserves, but that aside, I'd agree with Mannahnin here. For the FAQ to answer a question affirmative (yes you can), the question has to be valid. The only way for the question to be valid is if you can disembark from a Zooming Flyer with the given SR. Therefore, it show that the SR's use from a Zooming Flyer is valid.

This. GW has repeatedly used this technique in the past, to clarify a rule using the question as well. Like the Mad Dok Grotsnik question on page 5 of the Ork FAQ, where the question is the part that makes clear (via a parenthetical aside), that only non-vehicle models are allowed to upgrade to Cyborks when MDG is in the army, or the Dreadknight sword/ccw question in the GK FAQ, where the question part confirms that he still has A4.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's implicit in that FAQ answer, that Skies of Blood/Shadow Skies/Grav Chute Insertion can be used while Zooming. Because Zooming is the only time you can have your velocity locked.

It is implicit that Skies of Blood/Grav Chute can be used with locked velocity. You are inferring the rest. This very well could be nothing more than giving the unfortunate player who gets immobilized before dropping off their cargo a chance to get them into the game rather than forcing them to throw away a whole bunch of points.

It's explicit that it can be used with LV. It's implicit that it can be used when Zooming normally.

The ruling says you can use special disembarking rules when under LV. The ruling does NOT say all of them, it just says you can use them, assuming you can use them when you are not under LV. You are taking the logical leap that it works backwards and I think it is a great leap. The only explicit thing is LV does not prevent you from using rules you could normally.