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This is something I have been discussing recently, and have found a few references to but never a solid answer, so I figured I would put it to YMDC.

The Vibro Cannon draws a line after rolling to hit and effects all units the line passes through, the rules relevant to my question are as follows:

"Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits."

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration"

Given a vehicle is a unit, it should, as any other unit, receive D6 hits from the Vibro Cannon, and we are told that when the Vibro Cannon hits a vehicle it suffers an automatic glance instead of rolling to penetrate so I put forward then that a Vibro Cannon whose line passes through a vehicle will inflict D6 glances on said vehicle.

One counter point to this would be to cite the specific mentioning of "single glancing hit" but I don't think that necessarily indicates that you can't glance it more than once in a round of shooting, I feel it's equally possible that the specification of "single" in this instance is to prevent confusion about support weapon batteries with multiple Vibro Cannons in them multiplying the number of glances.

Other than that which I think is at best ambiguous, and doesn't really serve to refute the concept on it's own, I'm not really seeing much to undermine this reading of the rules.

So I was wondering what people's opinions on the RAW here are.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
This is something I have been discussing recently, and have found a few references to but never a solid answer, so I figured I would put it to YMDC.

The Vibro Cannon draws a line after rolling to hit and effects all units the line passes through, the rules relevant to my question are as follows:

"Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits."

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration"

Given a vehicle is a unit, it should, as any other unit, receive D6 hits from the Vibro Cannon, and we are told that when the Vibro Cannon hits a vehicle it suffers an automatic glance instead of rolling to penetrate so I put forward then that a Vibro Cannon whose line passes through a vehicle will inflict D6 glances on said vehicle.

One counter point to this would be to cite the specific mentioning of "single glancing hit" but I don't think that necessarily indicates that you can't glance it more than once in a round of shooting, I feel it's equally possible that the specification of "single" in this instance is to prevent confusion about support weapon batteries with multiple Vibro Cannons in them multiplying the number of glances.

Other than that which I think is at best ambiguous, and doesn't really serve to refute the concept on it's own, I'm not really seeing much to undermine this reading of the rules.

So I was wondering what people's opinions on the RAW here are.

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration"

This is an exception to the usual effect, specifying what happens to a vehicle. It takes a single glancing hit.

You can argue otherwise, but it seems pretty cut and dried to me. The vehicle was hit by the line, and takes one glancing hit as a result.

A battery fires a single line that will hit the vehicle just once. The seperate and more sepcific entry for targets with an AV value then tells you what happens.

but the rules never describe it as "hit" by the line, that's my issue, the only time they describe the unit as being "hit" is after you roll a D6 to determine how many times you hit it.

You can interpret being passed through by a line as being hit by it, but the RAW doesn't particularly support that idea.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
but the rules never describe it as "hit" by the line, that's my issue, the only time they describe the unit as being "hit" is after you roll a D6 to determine how many times you hit it.

You can interpret being passed through by a line as being hit by it, but the RAW doesn't particularly support that idea.

Unit as in unit entry.

Not the vehicle itself suffering D6 hits. Just 1 auto glance.

I think you're reaching a bit if you try to use this in an actual game.

In a pure thought-exercise you could argue that it gets hit d6 times, as you did above.

You could equally argue that it takes the d6 'normal' hits, and additionally gets a glancing hit. The Ork SAG has a similar line on the 6'6 result with the target being removed from play, vehicles taking an automatic Pen.

*shrug*

I've stated my opinion on the effect. I'll let someone else jump in and argue it, as it's rarely all that effective to argue what passes for logic when discussing GW rules while drunk.

 LunaHound wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
but the rules never describe it as "hit" by the line, that's my issue, the only time they describe the unit as being "hit" is after you roll a D6 to determine how many times you hit it.

You can interpret being passed through by a line as being hit by it, but the RAW doesn't particularly support that idea.

Unit as in unit entry.

Not the vehicle itself suffering D6 hits. Just 1 auto glance.

I don't understand what you mean about Units and unit entries?

The core rules very clearly define Units as including the likes of an individual vehicle.

What about squadrons?

I agree that "hit" is used very loosely in the description. There are 2 instances of hitting. When each vibe rolls to hit, and then when the line passes through a unit, it takes d6 hits. I do not think having the line pass through equals hit by a vibro cannon.

(Edit)
The description makes it pretty clear that the auto glance is instead of rolling for penetration. That would suggest to me that the number of hits has already been determined. The major indicators of how this is supposed to work is whether vehicles were considered units at the time of publication. If not, then the vehicle takes a glancing hit for every vibrocannon that passed the to hit roll.

4th Edition defined units as "A unit will usually consist of several infantry models or small vehicles that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large and/or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero."

and further it went on to classify a variety of units you may encounter including Vehicles of which it said:

"... Vehicle units are represented by single models, in the case of tanks and other large vehicles, or as a group of one to three smaller vehicles."

That's unfortunate. One glance per vibro hit would have been reasonable for cost. Now it is a debate whether they suck too much or rock too much.

And on that note, do units under the line get cover saves?

 Drunkspleen wrote:
4th Edition defined units as "A unit will usually consist of several infantry models or small vehicles that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large and/or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero."

and further it went on to classify a variety of units you may encounter including Vehicles of which it said:

"... Vehicle units are represented by single models, in the case of tanks and other large vehicles, or as a group of one to three smaller vehicles."

A unit comprised of models (none vehicle... so Infantry, Monstrous creature, Beast, jet bikes, jump infantries ) gets hit D6.

Vehicles like the rule said, suffer 1 auto glance. Unless the line goes through more than 1 vehicle, then its still 1 auto glance.

Isn't that clear already? I have never seen this rule been an issue.

 LunaHound wrote:


A unit comprised of models (none vehicle... so Infantry, Monstrous creature, Beast, jet bikes, jump infantries ) gets hit D6.

Vehicles like the rule said, suffer 1 auto glance. Unless the line goes through more than 1 vehicle, then its still 1 auto glance.

Isn't that clear already? I have never seen this rule been an issue.

The rule said it suffers one auto glance if it is "hit by a vibrocannon". When is a vehicle "hit by a vibrocannon"?

Using syntax of the sentence I would say a single hit as the line about vehicle says hit not hits, imparting a singular nature to the attack.

 Eldarguy88 wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:


A unit comprised of models (none vehicle... so Infantry, Monstrous creature, Beast, jet bikes, jump infantries ) gets hit D6.

Vehicles like the rule said, suffer 1 auto glance. Unless the line goes through more than 1 vehicle, then its still 1 auto glance.

Isn't that clear already? I have never seen this rule been an issue.

The rule said it suffers one auto glance if it is "hit by a vibrocannon". When is a vehicle "hit by a vibrocannon"?

When you decide where the line goes, and see the distance.

Same way you use a flame template.

 LunaHound wrote:

 Eldarguy88 wrote:
The rule said it suffers one auto glance if it is "hit by a vibrocannon". When is a vehicle "hit by a vibrocannon"?

When you decide where the line goes, and see the distance.

Same way you use a flame template.

The rule says "hit" to describe two seperate events, how did you come to that conclusion that a third event, the line passing through was also "hitting"? It makes sense, but no more than one a hit per vibrocannon rolled hit.

I think I could get behind the vehicle taking 1 glance, and the D6 S4 hits (or S5/S6 depending on how many vibrocannons).

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think I could get behind the vehicle taking 1 glance, and the D6 S4 hits (or S5/S6 depending on how many vibrocannons).

-Matt

It specifically says in describing that it takes an automatic glance "do not roll for armour penetration" so you definitely don't get to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunaHound wrote:
When you decide where the line goes, and see the distance.

Same way you use a flame template.

Right, but putting the flame template over the target isn't "hitting it" the hits don't happen until the template rules tell you "Any models fully or partially under the template ARE HIT" that's why when you put a template over something it counts as hit, not because the act of placing the template inherently hits the model.

Similarly, when drawing a line with a vibrocannon, having the line pass through you isn't inherently being hit by the line, we are given specific rules for what the line means in terms of hits, and that is, roll a D6, the unit is hit that many times.

Even if it is hit D6 times the rules still say it suffers a "single" glance. I can hit the rear armor of a Rhino 15 times with bolters but if I only roll one 6 for AP it only gets one glance.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration"

The logic works as follows:
If HIT then GLANCE(1) End IF

Not

If HIT = True Then
. For Each HIT as HIT in HITS()
. GLANCE(1)
. Next
End If

As much as I'd like for it to work the way you suggest, because the codex could certainly use some love, this does not work as you'd like.
All the logic checks is to see whether you hit a vehicle or not. It doesn't care how many times you hit the vehicle.

Again.... what about squadrons? Would they qualify as a "unit"?

I think you are missing the fact that there are two separate paragraphs describing what happens when something gets hit. The first paragraph is specifically talking about what happens when a target without an Armour Value gets hit.

The second paragraph is describing exactly what happens when something with an Armour Value gets hit.

So since they talk about non Armour Value things in the first paragraph and describe them as taking d6 hits, that's what takes d6 hits.

And since they are describing what happens to something with an Armour Value in the second paragraph, that is where they talk about how many hits something with an Armour Value would take.

So as an example, if you had a unit of three Vibro Cannons firing, and one of them had a Warlock with it then it would go like this.

roll to hit 3 times. If at least one of those rolls to hit is successful you draw a single straight line. Now that you've done that, look at what lays under the line. If it is a unit without an Armour Value then it would take d6 Str 6 glancing hits.

If it was a unit with an armour value then it would take one glancing hit for each vibro cannon that actually rolled to hit successfully.

The reason the rolling to hit successfully doesn't matter as much against non Armour value units is because they are combining beams so only one beam needs to hit to do anything as described in the first paragraph.

The next paragraph down from the first doesn't talk about the line or anything other than " a target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit."

And since the discussion about the line is for how you resolve the hits vs anything without an Armour Value then you have to go by what the second paragraph says. So pay attention to how many successful rolls to hit you get with the battery and that is how many glancing hits a vehicle takes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skootnasty wrote:
Again.... what about squadrons? Would they qualify as a "unit"?

Yes, they would qualify as a unit. Page 77 in the basic rule book will tell you why in the first paragraph.

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration"

That means no matter how many times it is hit by a ("a" meaning singular) vibrocannon, the effect is a single glancing hit and no penetration rolls are made. There is nothing to modify how many times a target with an armour value is hit. What is up for debate is when a target with an armour value is hit by a vibrocannon.

Is it when each vibrocannon rolls to hit against it's ballistic skill, or when a D6 is rolled to determine how many hits a unit takes if the line passes through it? I'm hoping Roadkill Zombie is right, as it is the middle road. More benefit with more cannons, but not as absurd as d6 auto glances.