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Ok so i have heard different things about the Deathwing and Ravenwing but what i have heard the most is that its best to run them separate but the codex has so much synergy between the two that i just cant let this go ... so i want to know what you guys think ... can you run a DW/RW list and if so what would you recommend in the list?

Theres a guy at my FLGS that runs DW/RW lists. Its pretty cool. A lot of terminators and a lot of bikes. It is pretty effective in the league but as far as tourneys go, no clue. at 2000 points you could pretty much run them both separately at the same time using the double FOC if you wanted to i guess.

As far as the units you should take i would say a few squads of termies kitted out however you see fit(prolly TH/SS Cyclone) and then a bunch of bikes and maybe a couple of landspeeders. I think the guy at the club runs Sammael in a landspeeder.
Hope this helps a little.

That army is called DeathRaven actually, it was a staple of early 5th before we got faqqed to have the new stormshields. You generally took either Belial or Sammael, and then took the corresponding units as troops, 4 for deathwing, 2-3 for ravenwing. You took the other squads as either elites or Fast Attack, the way the army works is you use your ravenwing bikes to scout move near an enemy or an objective that you wanted and then on first turn dropped your terminators down on there heads. You then rode around deploying the other Terminators where you needed them and using the Ravenwing for harrasment/tankbusting. Sammael is a beast on his landspeeder, and there really isn't any reason to take him on a bike. If you have the spare points it can be worth it bringing Belial in addition as that makes most of your units scoring, the downside being you're now paying a lot for your hq choices.

Hope that helped. If you're looking for more information on the army go to the Bolter and Chainsword forum and look up the Unforgiven sub-forum, that's where a lot of the hardcore Dark Angels players hangout.

I mostly go mainly DW with 3 RW landspeeders with CML and MMs. Theyre too good to pass up. Dont use bikes too much tbh.

From my understanding of it one of the stronger DA builds is what you describe, although I've most commonly heard it described as Dualwing. If you have the points, take both HQ's (if not, just take Belial), a ton of scoring termies (you can mix tactical and assault, so you want TT/SS termies in nearly every squad to abuse the 3++ save) with bikes providing support. The DA players I've spoken too have said that depending on the points value of the game you are playing, it's either the best or second best conventional build for the army. Sadly, Dualwing is the only real edge that the codex has anymore, considering that Grey Knights do Deathwing (arguably) better than DA, and the consensus appears to be that C:SM bikers more cost efficient than Ravenwing.

I wouldn't say that Grey Knights do Deathwing better than DA, the lack of stormshields hurts quite a bit, and we also have mixed units which are a grand help. Also, if you had the two walk up and hulksmash eachother the DW comes out on top due to the lack of ap 2 on the GKs.

Our DA player here does the "combined arms" thing. He generally runs 2 termie squads, a bike squad with a couple land speeders, then fills the rest with tac squads and vehicles.

It's usually a hard list to fight since with the Ravenwing scout move he can get those termies in close on turn 1, and the rest of his army advances while your dealing with that.

Will it win any GT's? I can't say, but I always enjoy playing against it, we usually end up drawing.

I've seen them win once, but I've read of them winning several tournies.

I think it the dualwing is a great combo.
In a 2000 pt game I typically take Belial, 4 DW squads, 1 small RW tank-hunitng squad, and 1 big RW squad with flamethrowers and as teleport beacons for the DW.
Supporting them I run two vindicators and a mortis Dreadnought with 2x TLLC.
The tanks and dread can be replaced with tact marines, or an ally to help with fliers.

My favorite thing so far has been a RW squad with flamethrowers. Scout, drop temies midfield, then move 12" on turn 1 and you can place two flame templates on the enemy, who will probably be bunched up bc on turn 1 who is gonna have flame templates in range? the RW will.
So far this tactic has made a mob of 20 boys and a couple of full tact squads run away.

good luck on hunting the fallen
-Moron

I run a mixed DA list as well. Its a bit themed so probably isn't terribly efficient (but still won 2 out of 3 games with it). 2k as follows:

Belial
terminator librarian
2x tactical terminators
1x assault terminators
small melta bike squad
attack bike
2x land speeders
2x dreadnoughts
vindicator
Sniper scouts in an Aegis line

Its a nice mix of stuff that can hurt a variety of targets and the scoring units tend to be pretty robust My preferred tactics are to push the attack bike and bike squads up different flanks to give me options on the teleport homer before dropping a heavy flamer squad as close as possible toa handy target.

my plan is a balance of TH/SS in each of my DW squads and then outflanking with the RW in hopes of getting the DW on there objectives first turn and then hold while the RW tar pit the other guys stuff ... what tips do you have for that?

DW squads should be set up in this order: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, SB/PF, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML.
This squad is 240 points, and puts out two missiles and 6 bolter shots per turn and with the two SS in front can shrug off almost anything. Chainfist is in there just in case there are any vehicles sitting around, or dreads charging.

I am planning on running a Dark angels army in a tourny end of month (cant use codex marines as another player in my team is and its no two codex are allowed rule) so I am 'stuck' with DA, seeing as I am using quite a few dark vengeance models and am planning on painting a DA successor chapter it isnt too bad.

I am going for 3 units of termies, 2 squads 3 bikes sarg and attack bike, and intergator chaplain on bike then two full tac squads in rhinos. and hyperios air defence squad for anti air

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
DW squads should be set up in this order: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, SB/PF, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML.
This squad is 240 points, and puts out two missiles and 6 bolter shots per turn and with the two SS in front can shrug off almost anything. Chainfist is in there just in case there are any vehicles sitting around, or dreads charging.

Thank you much ... my squad idea was about the same exept heavy flamer instead of cml for infantry rushing them and the sergent would keep the power sword but i guess it doesnt hurt to try out new things huh.

Yeah, I found having a TH/SS sergeant, he can take on anybody, even special characters, in a challenge and have a decent chance of winning.
The CML is a much better choice because of the dual-purpose of it. Frag for anti-horde and Krak for vehicles and marines.
The stormbolters are in there to just help thin out big enemy squads, those few extra shots have saved me multiple times against being overwhelmed by a mob of orks.

The only thing I will caution is running up against a Salamander TH/SS terminator unit or a unit of Tzeentch flamers. The Salamanders mastercrafted THs will beat yours everyday and the flamers just put out so many wounds with no armor saves allowed that your two TH/SS will die and after those are down, the rest of the squad will fall as well.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
Yeah, I found having a TH/SS sergeant, he can take on anybody, even special characters, in a challenge and have a decent chance of winning.
The CML is a much better choice because of the dual-purpose of it. Frag for anti-horde and Krak for vehicles and marines.
The stormbolters are in there to just help thin out big enemy squads, those few extra shots have saved me multiple times against being overwhelmed by a mob of orks.

The only thing I will caution is running up against a Salamander TH/SS terminator unit or a unit of Tzeentch flamers. The Salamanders mastercrafted THs will beat yours everyday and the flamers just put out so many wounds with no armor saves allowed that your two TH/SS will die and after those are down, the rest of the squad will fall as well.

Good to know ... if you dont mind me asking could you write up a 2500 point list that you would use ... just so i know what i should get after dark vengence.

As a guide to what to buy, I might suggest waiting a bit. DA are rumored to get a new codex before the end of the year.
But do not worry, there are a few things that you can get that will definitely stay around. Namely a RW battleforce is a ridiculously good steal. 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 landspeeder, and a ton of DA upgrade bits!
On top of that I would suggest at least two more sets of terminators. One of each kind so you can get all the weapon options. (magnets come in real handy here)

If you ever find a need for more CMLs and don't want to spend $6 for one. I have found a really good alternative from reaper minis for only 77 cents.

I typically play at the 2000 pt level, but I'll write up some 2500 pt list tomorrow and see what I can come up with.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I typically play 2000, but I'll try an example list at 2500.
I tried staying with Deathwing/Ravenwing synergy, and I almost never play with tact marines (Codex: SM does tact squads better/cheaper)

Belial: TH/SS for extra durability. (make sure to look-out-sir anything S8 and above on a 2+ bc of lack of eternal warrior)
DW: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, LC/Std bearer, Apoth/SB/PF, AC/PF
DW: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, SB/PF, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML
DW:same as above
DW:same as above
Venerable Dreadnought with Plasma cannon, DCCW, heavy flamer, and extra armor (take a look at the FAQs, our venerable dreads are now WS/BS 5)

Sammael: Jetbike (the model is awesome, and with his LS being only 2 hullpoints, I think the Jetbike is worth taking again)
RW: Srgt/PS/PP, x2 flamers, apoth, x2 regular bikes
RW: Srgt/PP/Meltabomb, x2 Meltas, Attack Bike with Multi Melta (anti-tank suicide squad)

Mortis Dreadnought with 2 TLLC and extra armor (anti-flyer)
Vindicator
Vindicator

This is very similar to my 2000 pt list, but with the addition of Sammael and the Ven Dread and some other options added.
For the terminators, the best thing to do is to take the 5 from DV, add two boxes of Assault termies, and one box of ranged termies, and then buy two extra missile launcher bits and then mix-and-match all the squads to your liking. You'll have to do some converting to make the Apothecary and standard bearer terminators.

Of course, this is just an idea or starting point for you. I am just one guy with my own opinions, other people have different play-styles so this might not match yours. It is always best to take a good read through the codex and formulate your own plan.

Good luck hunting the fallen,
-Moron

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
As a guide to what to buy, I might suggest waiting a bit. DA are rumored to get a new codex before the end of the year.
But do not worry, there are a few things that you can get that will definitely stay around. Namely a RW battleforce is a ridiculously good steal. 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 landspeeder, and a ton of DA upgrade bits!
On top of that I would suggest at least two more sets of terminators. One of each kind so you can get all the weapon options. (magnets come in real handy here)

If you ever find a need for more CMLs and don't want to spend $6 for one. I have found a really good alternative from reaper minis for only 77 cents.

I typically play at the 2000 pt level, but I'll write up some 2500 pt list tomorrow and see what I can come up with.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I typically play 2000, but I'll try an example list at 2500.
I tried staying with Deathwing/Ravenwing synergy, and I almost never play with tact marines (Codex: SM does tact squads better/cheaper)

Belial: TH/SS for extra durability. (make sure to look-out-sir anything S8 and above on a 2+ bc of lack of eternal warrior)
DW: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, LC/Std bearer, Apoth/SB/PF, AC/PF
DW: TH/SS, TH/SS/Srgt, SB/PF, SB/CF, SB/PF/CML
DW:same as above
DW:same as above
Venerable Dreadnought with Plasma cannon, DCCW, heavy flamer, and extra armor (take a look at the FAQs, our venerable dreads are now WS/BS 5)

Sammael: Jetbike (the model is awesome, and with his LS being only 2 hullpoints, I think the Jetbike is worth taking again)
RW: Srgt/PS/PP, x2 flamers, apoth, x2 regular bikes
RW: Srgt/PP/Meltabomb, x2 Meltas, Attack Bike with Multi Melta (anti-tank suicide squad)

Mortis Dreadnought with 2 TLLC and extra armor (anti-flyer)
Vindicator
Vindicator

This is very similar to my 2000 pt list, but with the addition of Sammael and the Ven Dread and some other options added.
For the terminators, the best thing to do is to take the 5 from DV, add two boxes of Assault termies, and one box of ranged termies, and then buy two extra missile launcher bits and then mix-and-match all the squads to your liking. You'll have to do some converting to make the Apothecary and standard bearer terminators.

Of course, this is just an idea or starting point for you. I am just one guy with my own opinions, other people have different play-styles so this might not match yours. It is always best to take a good read through the codex and formulate your own plan.

Good luck hunting the fallen,
-Moron

Thank you much sir ... ill keep it in mind this will help allot

You are welcome.
oh and remember that with this army (and most armies) I think the key to winning is in deployment.
You need to know when to outflank or scout your suicide melta bikes. You need to know wether to start on the board or DS in with the Termies. So look at your enemy and what he has, then decide how to deploy.

Another thing to remember: DWassault is 50% rounding up can DS on turn 1. So if you put 3 DW squads in reserves, then 2 will drop turn 1. So what I do most of the time is deploy one squad on the home objective with the tanks and dreads, then DS two squads turn 1. But there are some cases where you just want to start everybody on the board bc DSing is to risky or not useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the flamers on bikes are great.
either outflank and catch a Dev squad by surprise. or scout, then drive straight turn 1 to place two templates on the enemy. Both of these have worked out great for me.
Just remember that nobody can assault on the first PLAYER turn.

Thank you guys so much for your input its much appreciated.

I thought Sammels LS was more then 2 hull points in the new FAQ?

 Deathclad wrote:
my plan is a balance of TH/SS in each of my DW squads and then outflanking with the RW in hopes of getting the DW on there objectives first turn and then hold while the RW tar pit the other guys stuff ... what tips do you have for that?

You'll never get ravenwing tarpitting anything

Also by outflanking the RW you are unlikely to be able to make use of their teleport homers as they won't be on the board at the start of the turn that the DW squads arrive.

Power concentration is key with the deathwing as they are a low unit count army. Concentrate all firepower on the super star destroy.. oh wait... try and pick off enemy elite CC units with shooting and then run the DW squads into combat with the remaining enemy line troops. the enemy troops should hopefully have too few attacks available to cause much damage against terminator armour and then you squish them with lots of power fist attacks. Ravenwing then continue to harrass enemy firebase units and maybe charge heavy weapon units if you have a power weapon or 2 in the bike squads.

Thats my view anyway

I am working on building a DW list, and one of the most tempting units to add in is almost anything from the RW. The big winner being Land Speeders with Typhoon Missiles. Cheap mobile versatile weapons are wonderful for a slower army.

I love DeathRaven/Dual wing lists, the synergy is awesome. However i dont see it as the only viable option, Dark Angels can still do abit of everything, and all Death Wing, All Raven wing or Raven/Deathwing only lists. All 4 builds are effective if you ask me. Im putting together a DeathRaven list and am super excited to get it all done up.

Dark Angels can still do abit of everything,

Our Greenwing sucks, we're about 10-20% more expensive for less ability. The only thing we get is Special Weapons in our 5 man squads, meaning we can Razorspam better than Vanilla but no where near as good as Space Wolves.