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So I am under the impression that the Doom Scythes weapons are hull mounted. GW hasn't stated this but it has to have a mounting as it is a vehicle and using simple reasoning one can deduce that it is not a turret, pintle mount or sponson, so this leaves hull mounted which woud give it a 45 degree LoS (For both weapons). Myself and jy2 have been broching the subject from opposing angles and thought it prudent to move the subject here. The original thread is here

My claim is that since the death ray has 45 degree arc for LoS then according to page 16 and the header "out of sight" any models that are a part of a unit being hit but are outside of the 45 cannot have wounds allocated to them from the wound pool as per the out of sight rule. Basically only models that are within its 45 degree LoS arc can be killed.

Basically, Red's position is this:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh I know there are mitigating circumstances. The examples you provided work just fine with the wound allocation rules. My contention is only that you must have LOS via your firing arc in order to allocate wounds. So:

1 2 3 4 5 6
.....\\\\\\////
........\\\//
..........v 45 degree arc, please forgive my drawing and ignore periods lol dakka was messing up my drawing without them.

in this situation lets say you hit 1 through 6 and wound all 6, you can allocate all six wounds but you are restricted to to models 2-5 for allocation. So any wounds left over after saves are wasted. So many people are forgetting to apply the "out of site" rule to the Doom Scythe. Further more they omitted an explanation on it's mounting (both weapons actually) but I think it's safe to deduce that it isn't a turret, pintle, or sponson weapon. This leaves us with hull mounted as defined in the BGB which gives it a 45 degree LOS. I think this is the most conservative approach until they ever or if ever they address it's mounting officially. This is more what I was addressing before but your points are both spot on assuming proper arc.

My position is this. If just 1 model from the unit is within the firing arc of your vehicle, then you can hurt more than just that 1 model in the unit (unless the other models are completely out of LOS). Just like if just 1 model is within range of your gun (and the other models in that unit are just out of range of your gun), then you can shoot and kill more than just that one model.

So what do you think, dakkalites?


Also, keep in mind we are talking specifically about the doom scythe's deathray, which has different rules on how it is used.

The rule says anywhere within 12".

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule says anywhere within 12".

That is a good point, so would you consider the death ray works like a turret then?

So make sure the Death Ray has 45 degree LOS on the unit it wants to nuke? It makes sense that they are hull mounted and it's how I play them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, yeah the Death Ray never has to target a unit, just pass a line through them. So the 45 degree arc would only matter for the tesla destructor.

 jy2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule says anywhere within 12".

That is a good point, so would you consider the death ray works like a turret then?

No it does not work like a turret. The model has a full 360 degree arc. That is the RAW.

 Red Corsair wrote:
My claim is that since the death ray has 45 degree arc for LoS then according to page 16 and the header "out of sight" any models that are a part of a unit being hit but are outside of the 45 cannot have wounds allocated to them from the wound pool as per the out of sight rule. Basically only models that are within its 45 degree LoS arc can be killed.

I agree with the logic behind this position (ie: only models in LoS can have wounds allocated to them and thus be killed). I think it's debatable what the fire arc of the Death Ray is though. It's mounted on what looks like a ball joint (which would support 360) but a poster on the NOVA forums said this about the arc

As the proud owner of a doomscythe I tested the actual arc of the giant "Laser"

Even after removing the cabling the gun cannot swivel because of the shape of the gun itself. It is stopped by the destructors.
Even after slightly modifing the gun I cannot get it to be a pintle mouted weapon without entering "modelling for advantage" territory.

(which would support 45). Without an official ruling you just have to come to an agreement.

45 degree arc. It can only target a unit in that arc*. I do think the line could pass out of that arc, though.

*(the line should, I think, probably be required to start in the arc too, but there's currently nothing specifying that).

Anywhere within 12" is just what it sounds like – anywhere.

 jy2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule says anywhere within 12".

That is a good point, so would you consider the death ray works like a turret then?

I think it can fire behind itself but that is just my opinion reading the entry from the codex... We can introduce caveats to limit its arc but I don't think that is right. Note that the 'gun' sits underneath the flyer for what it's worth.

LOS is different to Arc of Fire.

you can only shoot at or target units in LOS, but if that shot can woudn models that are in LOS.

therefore the model that are in LOS but out of the Arc of fire CAn be wounded by wounds in the wound pool.

My 2p.

My perception?

Line of Sight and Arc of fire are two different things, as Praxiss has stated.

There is nothing, not in the rules nor in the model, that suggests the Death Ray has a Turret based LoS. Thus it's hull mounted, and has a 45 degree Line of Sight.

The ability states that you can draw a line anywhere within 12" - which includes outside of that Line of Sight.

So, while the Doom Scythe can only see in the front, it can draw that line behind it, if it wishes.

The catch being that you can't allocate wounds / damage to models you can't see - so there's little point.

I'm happy to debate it, but I've been frustrated lately by necron players going "nah it looks like a turret so it has a 360 degree Line of Site"

It does mean a savvy player can snipe models though. Generate a ton of hits and wounds and put them all on the 1 model that is in LoS. A bit situational perhaps but just something that might come in useful.

 Praxiss wrote:
LOS is different to Arc of Fire.

you can only shoot at or target units in LOS, but if that shot can woudn models that are in LOS.

therefore the model that are in LOS but out of the Arc of fire CAn be wounded by wounds in the wound pool.

My 2p.

If you reread the Death Ray it tells you how to drop the line which achieves the hits. As I have stated already though, nowhere in the DR entry does it tell you how to allocate those wounds so we must fallow the BGB which tells us that if models are out of sight they cannot have wounds allocated to them. The line can trace anywhere but wounds must be allocated through convention.

Also reread your vehicles section, vehicles determine LoS based on their weapon and its arc of fire. So therefore the death ray has a 45 front facing arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lukus83 wrote:
It does mean a savvy player can snipe models though. Generate a ton of hits and wounds and put them all on the 1 model that is in LoS. A bit situational perhaps but just something that might come in useful.

This is true but no more so then indirect fire.

Let me point out some of the relevant quotes to this discussion.

Necron codex, p.50 wrote:
To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the 2 points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

And from the main rulebook:

BRB, p.72 wrote:
Vehicles need to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.

BRB, p.16 wrote:
If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must be instead allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and shooting attack ends.

It just makes no sense to me that the doom scythe can "fire" its death ray anywhere but then can't hurt anything if the target is not right in front of it. I think that in this case it is implied (only for the death ray, not for its tesla-destructor) that either it has LOS or it doesn't need LOS to damage targets in the path of its deathray because the ability to fire the deathray "anywhere" within 12" of the gun breaks the normal requirement for needing LOS to the target.

It basically works similar to the Hive Guard Impaler Cannon in that it can hit any unit within X" of it whether there is LOS or not.

To me it makes perfect sense. They wanted the player to have the freedom to choose how he draws the line but fallowing the basic rules of shooting. You can still pick any point but you can only ever kill the models in the arc of the weapon.

This is my personal opinion RAW aside I think it also makes the most sense giving the models background and the description. It essentially is flying forward at supersonic speeds cutting trenches in front of it with a surgical laser. It was nonsensical to me before that a fixed forward gun was drawing lines behind itself?

Back to RAW, nowhere in the necron codex does it give permission to ignore wound allocation as per line of sight. So this is how it should be played. Just don't waste shots outside its front 45.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron codex, p.50 wrote:
To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the 2 points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

Further more this tells us to nominate a point anywhere within the weapons range nowhere in that does it tell us to ignore LoS or firing arc to determine those two points. So having read that more closely I think an argument can be made that the points have to fall within the 45 degree arc as well. It's common sense that my hull mounted las canon has a 48 inch range in every direction but my shots have to be placed in my 45 degree arc of visibility same applies to the death ray. I think the anywhere is simply telling us to pick a point anywhere between 1 and 12 inches and normal shooting conventions tells us it also must be in LoS.

I agree with jy2 but understand where others are coming from in reference to the arc. I think the codex rule overrides the rule book in this particular case.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with jy2 but understand where others are coming from in reference to the arc. I think the codex rule overrides the rule book in this particular case.

You haven't supported your claim though. It doesn't tell you anywhere in the Necron codex to ignore the rules for shooting which require LoS both when you choose a target and when allocating wounds. The relevant quotes have been posted and it isn't there. Unless there is something else we have missed the deathray has to follow the vehicle rules for LoS.

Also note the Necron codex doesn't even mention mounting or arc which is why we must refer to the BGB here.

 Red Corsair wrote:
To me it makes perfect sense. They wanted the player to have the freedom to choose how he draws the line but fallowing the basic rules of shooting. You can still pick any point but you can only ever kill the models in the arc of the weapon.

This is my personal opinion RAW aside I think it also makes the most sense giving the models background and the description. It essentially is flying forward at supersonic speeds cutting trenches in front of it with a surgical laser. It was nonsensical to me before that a fixed forward gun was drawing lines behind itself?

Back to RAW, nowhere in the necron codex does it give permission to ignore wound allocation as per line of sight. So this is how it should be played. Just don't waste shots outside its front 45.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron codex, p.50 wrote:
To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the 2 points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

Further more this tells us to nominate a point anywhere within the weapons range nowhere in that does it tell us to ignore LoS or firing arc to determine those two points. So having read that more closely I think an argument can be made that the points have to fall within the 45 degree arc as well. It's common sense that my hull mounted las canon has a 48 inch range in every direction but my shots have to be placed in my 45 degree arc of visibility same applies to the death ray. I think the anywhere is simply telling us to pick a point anywhere between 1 and 12 inches and normal shooting conventions tells us it also must be in LoS.

Well, the doom scythe's death ray made near-perfect sense in fifth edition, as it was written for. While the operation of the death ray has not changed at all, the ability to wound has. The debate being brought up here would have easily been the same in 5th edition but no one brought it up then because there was no clause of not being able to wound those that you can't see. That is really the only thing that has changed, but now people bring up the 45 degree arc thing and all that when that still existed in 5th? No, the arc of the gun doesn't matter. Here is why, the very first line of vehicle weapons & line of sight (Pg 72) says a vehicle needs to be able to draw LOS to their targets in order to shoot at them. It then goes on to specify they are talking about target unit. So, the death ray doesn't target a unit, first off, it just shoots anywhere within 12" of the gun. So now after the shooting has been made we determine wound allocation. Yes, there is a rule stating you can't wound what you can't see but there's also a rule stating you can't shoot at what you can't see and we already know the death ray overrides that.

And, hm, it seems jy2 already said most of this. Hah. *Sigh* Shoulda read the whole thread. Oh well...I guess I'm a fast skimmer (bad joke).

I'm torn. First I thought that the range rules would stop a 360 degree arc. However, p71 clearly makes the distinction between LOS and range, so firing behind is reasonable from that description. Then I reasoned LOS would stop it as you couldn't allocate wounds behind you. However, I found the following on p72:

Vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.

So, how am I shooting them if I don't have LOS? I know codex overrules rulebook and everything, but for me that would imply if I can hit them, they can take wounds. Even if the first point needs to be picked within LOS, you could still fire behind you with the line, which would imply to me that it DOES have 360 degree LOS. So, really the question I'd want answering is this: does firing the line count as shooting at the unit for the full length of the line? If yes, we can say that as we can fire at the unit, we have 360 degree LOS and wounds are allocated to the closest model. If no, we have to decide why not and this will limit us to the 45 degree arc. To be perfectly honest, I'd agree with your opponent beforehand as I suspect we don't have enough evidence to rule one way or the other and it needs an FAQ.

Eyjio wrote:
I'm torn. First I thought that the range rules would stop a 360 degree arc. However, p71 clearly makes the distinction between LOS and range, so firing behind is reasonable from that description. Then I reasoned LOS would stop it as you couldn't allocate wounds behind you. However, I found the following on p72:

Vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.

So, how am I shooting them if I don't have LOS? I know codex overrules rulebook and everything, but for me that would imply if I can hit them, they can take wounds. Even if the first point needs to be picked within LOS, you could still fire behind you with the line, which would imply to me that it DOES have 360 degree LOS. So, really the question I'd want answering is this: does firing the line count as shooting at the unit for the full length of the line? If yes, we can say that as we can fire at the unit, we have 360 degree LOS and wounds are allocated to the closest model. If no, we have to decide why not and this will limit us to the 45 degree arc. To be perfectly honest, I'd agree with your opponent beforehand as I suspect we don't have enough evidence to rule one way or the other and it needs an FAQ.

But this is the main problem, you are making assumptions when you try to interpret what is implied. To me it is still very simple, the "anywhere in range" simply lets you place the starting point anywhere between 1-12" and inside the 45, then place the other point anywhere else in the 45 arc. You look at the model to determine its mount, which is obviously hull mounted. So you cannot shoot outside the 45. You still haven't provided hard clear proof that you don't allocate wounds using the convention. It's because there isn't any in the Necron book that states you ignore LoS when determining wound allocation. Are you claiming that it is a turret?

And it is also possible to hit models with templates but not be able to allocate wounds to them, so that point is moot.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
I'm torn. First I thought that the range rules would stop a 360 degree arc. However, p71 clearly makes the distinction between LOS and range, so firing behind is reasonable from that description. Then I reasoned LOS would stop it as you couldn't allocate wounds behind you. However, I found the following on p72:

Vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.

So, how am I shooting them if I don't have LOS? I know codex overrules rulebook and everything, but for me that would imply if I can hit them, they can take wounds. Even if the first point needs to be picked within LOS, you could still fire behind you with the line, which would imply to me that it DOES have 360 degree LOS. So, really the question I'd want answering is this: does firing the line count as shooting at the unit for the full length of the line? If yes, we can say that as we can fire at the unit, we have 360 degree LOS and wounds are allocated to the closest model. If no, we have to decide why not and this will limit us to the 45 degree arc. To be perfectly honest, I'd agree with your opponent beforehand as I suspect we don't have enough evidence to rule one way or the other and it needs an FAQ.

But this is the main problem, you are making assumptions when you try to interpret what is implied. To me it is still very simple, the "anywhere in range" simply lets you place the starting point anywhere between 1-12" and inside the 45, then place the other point anywhere else in the 45 arc. You look at the model to determine its mount, which is obviously hull mounted. So you cannot shoot outside the 45. You still haven't provided hard clear proof that you don't allocate wounds using the convention. It's because there isn't any in the Necron book that states you ignore LoS. Note that it is possible to satisfy the anywhere in range and the rules for shooting vehicles and LoS when you follow my interpretation but trying to shoot 360 degrees and to satify the shooting rules is impossible as it stands. Your question also didn't make any sense to me, currently you can't even place the line outside the 45 arc because of the rules for vehicles and LoS. Are you claiming that it is a turret?

Well, you're making assumptions that "anywhere on the battlefield in the weapons range" includes only within 45 degrees up/down/left/right. If you limit it to that, you're not placing it "anywhere on the battlefield". The range is 12" from the barrel of the gun. LoS is determined separately from determining range. You're not required to have LoS to anything to determine range.

The big book even makes a not of them being different things on pg. 71.

As I say, needs an FAQ as it's really not clear how to resolve it. For all I know, i could count as pintle mounted as they are generally fixed in place with 360 degree LOS. I mean, I doubt it but I wouldn't want to definitively state it's not.

Everyone I play is cool with the Doimscythe firing behind itself. Hasn't been an issue yet.

There is no turret and the pipes on either side are mounted directly onto the hull, fixing it into place. In addition the tesla destructors that flank both sides would further impede the gun's movement. I don't see how this gun could be anything but hull mounted.

The rules for the gun imply that you can hit models outside LOS as you can place the line anywhere within 12", but codex entry does not address wound allocation.

The main rule book specifies that both range and LOS is drawn from the end of the weapon barell for vehicles and that LOS is further limmited by thier ARC. So for hull mounted weapons thier LOS is limmited to a 45 degree arc.

As for Impaler Cannons, the codex specifically states (not implies) that they can hit models outside of LOS...but again does not address wound allocation. So by RAW they can hit but not wound models that are not in LOS. Now TOs, including NOVA, are House FAQing Impaler Cannons to wound outside of LOS.

Eyjio wrote:
As I say, needs an FAQ as it's really not clear how to resolve it. For all I know, i could count as pintle mounted as they are generally fixed in place with 360 degree LOS. I mean, I doubt it but I wouldn't want to definitively state it's not.

There is no debate, as it is CLEARLY hull mounted. As such you cannot wound out of LOS, which is out of 45 degrees left AND right in total, and 45 degrees up AND down, in total.

 wyomingfox wrote:
There is no turret and the pipes on either side are mounted directly onto the hull, fixing it into place. In addition the tesla destructors that flank both sides would further impede the gun's movement. I don't see how this gun could be anything but hull mounted.

The rules for the gun imply that you can hit models outside LOS as you can place the line anywhere within 12", but codex entry does not address wound allocation.

The main rule book specifies that both range and LOS is drawn from the end of the weapon barell for vehicles and that LOS is further limmited by thier ARC. So for hull mounted weapons thier LOS is limmited to a 45 degree arc.

As for Impaler Cannons, the codex specifically states (not implies) that they can hit models outside of LOS...but again does not address wound allocation. So by RAW they can hit but not wound models that are not in LOS. Now TOs, including NOVA, are House FAQing Impaler Cannons to wound outside of LOS.

This^

wyomingfox put what I was clumsily saying into perfect words

There is no need for a FAQ on this weapon, it's clear they are hull mounted just as it is clear the missiles on a storm raven are hull mounted.

In the fluff of the night scythe (weak argument I know) - it describes the tesla destructor as turrent mounted.. any room for that in here?

xStuuy wrote:
In the fluff of the night scythe (weak argument I know) - it describes the tesla destructor as turrent mounted.. any room for that in here?

It's been discussed previously, in another thread, but it's generally understand that's a mistake in the fluff (we all know GW can make mistakes) and you're suppose to reference the model. Or in some cases, I believe it will also say if the weapon is pintle or turret mounted.

To clarify, I'm arguing if there isn't a 360 mount, you cannot fire at all, not that wounds aren't allocated as normal. That immediately follows from 360 degree LOS.

You can say the weapon is hull mounted as it's fixed in place, but I would refer you to p72

On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place.

As I said before, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. I'm pretty sure we're classing this line as shooting and the rules for the Death Ray say any point in range - not in LOS. I'm going to show WHY the 2 points also need to be able to fire out range with some maths.

We have 45 degree vertical LOS as well as horizontal. On flat terrain, I make the death ray to be about 3.75" from the base. Using trig, this gives us our minimum point away as being exactly (15√2)/4. This is roughly 5.3" away from the ray as the crow flies. Drawing straight from this to the 12" maximum mark clearly won't give us something that encompasses the 18" potential range. In fact, it'll be a reduced length coming off the radius (realistically the LOS is a sector of a sphere). Now, as spheres are annoying and we're only considering a 2D cross section anyway, so let's just consider 2 concentric circles - one of radius 15√2/4 and one of radius 12". We can plot these on a graph using plot x^2+y^2=12^2 and plot x^2+y^2=(15√2)/4)^2. Now we want to consider only a 45 degree line of sight - so plot x=y and x=0. Solving useful intersections of our smaller circle gives (0, 15√2/4) and (15/4, 15/4). Solving useful intersections of our larger circle gives (0, 12) and (6√2, 6√2). The diagonal will be our longest line possible to draw - it is just over 9". So, we must have to go out of range on the second point or accept that we can only trace a 9" line with any 3d6 roll higher.

So, why is this an issue? We can just pick another point 3d6 forwards in the 45 degree arc right? Well, yes, we can. However, even if you concede the first point must be within range AND LOS (despite the rule clearly saying anywhere in range, which triggers codex>rulebook), the second point has absolutely no restrictions on it at all - it simply says within 3d6 of the first point. Consequently, as it breaks the rules for range, there's no reason it doesn't break the rules for LOS either. It neither has to be in range nor in arc, as nothing says it must be due to the unusual nature of the shot. So, I can shoot out of LOS - which means I can't shoot them (paradox), which means either the arc is 360 degrees or the second point has invisible restrictions - either way needs an FAQ. The wounds are almost irrelevant up until now, as nothing has been allocated - as I can move the second point out of LOS if it's hull mounted, I can't fire if I exactly follow the rules to fire the weapon. A little absurd, no? Had they said "nominate a point on the battlefield within the weapon's range", then this problem would still exist - however, it says "nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range". Whilst I'm at it, why is the word "anywhere" in the sentence if it cannot fire... well, anywhere?

So, we would have to accept the following for the Death Ray to not be able to have 360 degree LOS:

-The use of anywhere is irrelevant, the first point MUST be within LOS
-The second point MUST ALSO be within LOS, which we should intrinsically know somehow
-GW did not intend to override the rules for firing a weapon

If a single one of these fails, 360 degree LOS follows immediately as otherwise the weapon cannot be fired using the quote I keep repeating:

Vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.

If you can pick a point, it must be within LOS to fire the weapon, hence the first two give 360 degree LOS. If they did intend to override the rules for firing a weapon (unlikely) then the debate is moot anyway as the whole wound allocation system breaks down (I can fire out of LOS... but I don't wound anyone). Again, that's absurd and had they wished to do that then I would've expected it to be stated.

So, do we agree that an FAQ is needed now? They either need to clearly state the second and first point need to be within the firing arc and that it's hull mounted OR that it is turret mounted, despite not being modelled as movable.