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Morning guys and gals!

I've recently started in a project which I'm loving at the moment. Building and painting an imperial fists army....

But when I come to making an army list I just can't decide what to include to make a 1500 - 2000pt list! There's so many options I can't make my mind up. I was dead set on including lysander in the army. But if I add assault termies and a land raider, your talking near 600pts already. That's 1/3rd of a 1500pt army already! Would it be more beneficial to stick a teleport homer in a tac squad and deep strike them in?

Are sternguard worth having? I thought they fit the theme of my fists, but I play against a tau and guard player, so that also leave vindicators out of the question...

Which leads me to my little added on question..... My friend mixes a Farseer in with his 3 man broadside team, givin him
2+4++ re rollable save. And he protects them like hell.... And he normally has marker lights close enough to get me... I HATE broadsides...
Please can someone help me DESTROY them?

Deleted. Stupid me.

I don't field Lysander, as I havn't got around to kitbashing a stand-in in Ultramarine colors. But it's on my things-to-do list.

On paper, he looks quite nice. He's an awesome beatstick, and give a lot of shooting utility to the squad he's with. Part of the problem looking at him, is he does two divergent things well.

I'd either put him in a drop pod with 10 sternguard, or just march him across the field with a squad of tactical terminators.

Assault terminators in a LR are expensive. And hard to kill, and dish out the pain. They are a lot of eggs, but what a basket! I like leading mine with a chaplain.

Could I have lysander, AND a chaplain with my assault termies? Über deathstar

I used to use Lysander with 10 combi-sterngaurd in a pod. They drop, light up a high value target, and then the enemy absolutly must deal with them. If they don't, they have a EW beat stick running rampant behind them.

With the 6th ed changes to fearless wounds and regrouping I will not use a SC that takes away combat tactics. Which means no Lysander. Army wide Stubborn was half the reason I took him and they has lost most if not all of it's value now.

If you want to run his a distraction go for it, but there are cheaper ways to fill that role now.

Surely the bolter drill, the termie armour, and the fortification thing is still worth it? He's almost a dead certain to take out any tank aswell?

How could I build a chapter master as good as that for less then 200pts?

And stubborn still isn't THAT bad, but I know what you mean

I still run an all drop pod army so my reasons are a little more specific.

Bolter drill is useless for me most games. Sternguard don't get to use it if they are useing the melta/plasma shot on the combi-weapon. Since thats they shot I normally take first turn they land and they are dead or in combat the turn after I never get to use it. If you run with a tac squad, a sternguard with few/no combi weapons, or a heavy bolter dev squad then it could be a factor.

Again with pods, bolster defences means nothing to me.

With the amount of melta I bring with the sterngaurd, taking out tanks is not a problem. I have to use a SC to do that task then something has gone wrong.

My mainstay HQ has become a termi libby with storm shield. It's 140 points and with the new psychic powers he does everything Lysander used to do and much more. The only thing I miss is EW but you can't have everything.

I see your point, but at least if your sternguard did get charged they could re roll their over watch and if you miss with your melta's... Well.... I suppose you could make it up in other ways?

Fortification I was thinking more along the lines of helping snipers in the army. Giving them a better save?

What spell school do you choose for your termie libby? , could I use him to get rid of this broadsides?

He's a waste with assault Terminators. All he does is what they do but slightly better. Stick him with tactical Terminators for the Bolter Drill and added close combat punch. He's also good drop podding with a squad of Sternguard. That Bolter Drill is not to be missed out on.

The first I role on is Telepathy. If I get lucky and grab Puppet Master, I take that and the primaris power. If I don't get Puppet Master the first time, I just grab the primaris power and then roll on Biomancy. But if they have a farseer with them then a libby won't be much help with Deny the Witch shutting you down.

If the broadsides are that large of a problem. Drop a pod with ten sterngaurd full of plasma guns and combi-plasmas and combat squad. Hit the unit with one squad, then the other if you need to. If you get first turn he won't even be able to get Fortune off in time. Overkill for sure, but the point cost could be close to what they take out.

If he's smart and bubble wraps the suits correctly then it will cause you problems but broadsides have never been real powerful.

 Brother SRM wrote:
He's a waste with assault Terminators. All he does is what they do but slightly better. Stick him with tactical Terminators for the Bolter Drill and added close combat punch. He's also good drop podding with a squad of Sternguard. That Bolter Drill is not to be missed out on.

So you would recommend him? That's what I thought I would do. 5 man termies, 4 storm bolters and 1 assault cannon.

Or sternguard. As many as I could fit in a pod. Deep strike and cause hassle. Especially against my tau friend. With the ap 3 bolters, kill some battle suits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veldrain wrote:

If he's smart and bubble wraps the suits correctly then it will cause you problems but broadsides have never been real powerful.

He takes out every single tank that's put on the board with them beasts. He marker lights up so he re rolls on a 3+ to hit. Str 10 at 1 shots?

After that he then starts on high priority footsloggers I.e termies. Meganobz, carnifex.... And the list goes on. I hate them. He has the Farseer with them and LOADS of support with em.

With my daemons I tried 2x9 flamers, hit with both. Got about 9 wounds on him. I did a single wound to them after the dust had settled

I have a pure passion to them. Anyway I can get rid of them I will

I think I will use Lysander as a very useful Belial conversion....

I don't know if this is any "tip" but Eldar can't fortune (or Guide) any Tau units no matter who joined them..

I would consider a couple things. Lysander doesn't do a ton to change or help the army other than being a beatstick (a damn good one too!). Add to this that he makes your whole army stubborn and you may figure out there better SC's to run. Codex Marines generally want to take advantage of combat tactics BUT if you want to run an SC I would eye Pedro Kantor right now. Sure he makes the army stubborn like Lysander but he makes Sternguard score. For 25 points less than Lysander and 75 points more than a staple librarian you are looking at at least doubling the scoring bodies on the table. If you keep Pedro close to your units everyone will get +1A in the event you are charged. Now even though stubborn is generally bad for C:SM, Pedro adds more to the army by making more of it score for not many points. 5/6 missions will be about scoring objectives!

Currently my 2k list is utilizing Pedro and 2 sternguard squads in rhinos. Add in my 2 Tactical squads in rhinos and you are looking at 40 scoring bodies plus support.

Andy140491 wrote:

So you would recommend him? That's what I thought I would do. 5 man termies, 4 storm bolters and 1 assault cannon.

Or sternguard. As many as I could fit in a pod. Deep strike and cause hassle. Especially against my tau friend. With the ap 3 bolters, kill some battle suits.

Hell yeah I would! The dude's a wrecking ball and really hard to kill as well.

 Macok wrote:
I don't know if this is any "tip" but Eldar can't fortune (or Guide) any Tau units no matter who joined them..

Indeed, your friend is not playing by the rules.

As for Lysander, stubborn is worse than combat tactics so that is a drawback. On the otherhand he can let your sternguard reroll their boltershots (awesome with vengence rounds) provides 4 2+/3++ EW wounds for a walking sternguard squad and generally beats face in CC. So the answer is "It depends on what you prefer"

Woooo 600 points for a lr and assault terms?
Might want to check that again assault terms are 200 and a lr is only 250 so 450 you are 150 off lad

Ive been running him here and there. I used him in a game with Deathwing allies and he dropped with the deathwing squad on the relic mission. It took forever for them to be bothered.

He is really efficient for his points. Four wounds helps tons also in that he can safely charge dreads or really anything you need taken care of. Sternguard might be too pricey for him but its not a bad choice as well though just jumping down with a tac squad in a pod works.

Overall I feel hes the best character in the codex aside from Vulkan by a wide margin, and then Vulkan only has an army rule going for him.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Woooo 600 points for a lr and assault terms?
Might want to check that again assault terms are 200 and a lr is only 250 so 450 you are 150 off lad

If you have a HQ leading the charge, ~600 is a good ballpark price for a LR full of choppy death.

I play 750 point games and use lysander and 10 sternguard I've played countless games and lost once and drew a couple of times, reasons why i use him and he lets me win nearly every game.

eternal warrior i see this as a must its a victory point you dont want to loose with four wounds with a 3++ for 200pts

Rerolls on bolters with the changes to rapid fire with the huge range of shots and customization you can give them. I have found since 6th there is less vehicles being fielded and they own infantry and monstrous creatures.

Stubborn is still really good ignore the ney Sayers saved my marines arse several times.

I often towards the end of the game i send him out to dish out some pain in close combat he is a monster unquestionably ive had wipe out hundreds of points in one round of combat several times due to his strength 10! Master crafted hammer!

200points silly not to take him

Agreed. He is a beast. I've also considered pedro, even though I'm running a pure imperial fists army.

Question is now. Can I make a chapter master better?.

If not how do I get him into the ranks of the enemy.

And I might be wrong about the re rolling saves with the far seer. But I do know that he makes it so they have a 4++. Something from the new magic?

I personally don't like the way he does 2 different things.
He gives you a better shooting ability, but carries no gun so any nice shooty units won't benifit from the extra weapon.

The only reason i would take him is to protect one nice shooty unit in your army from cc units, but even then it might not save them.

 farrowking37 wrote:
I personally don't like the way he does 2 different things.
He gives you a better shooting ability, but carries no gun so any nice shooty units won't benifit from the extra weapon.

The only reason i would take him is to protect one nice shooty unit in your army from cc units, but even then it might not save them.

This is why he's so good that he protects the unit from cc as ive often found people are too scared to charge him and his unit because he will eat whatever hits them also with the new wound allocation you can stick him at the front to absorb all the shooty coming at the sterns.

In my gaming circle he know has a nickname of lasagne lol

Finally to the op you wont be able to get a chapter master anywhere near as you cant give them special rules and special weapons

If you want to use lysander ,then play SW . Take the anvil. He costs less does the same stuff[kills stuff] + throws his hammer doesnt take up HQ slot . In a normal marine army it is better to take an ally SW lord with or without TWC mount and the saga that gives eternal .

Sounds good but I'm making a pure imperial fists army

And like people have quoted. I dont think there's many a special character that will go toe to toe with him and come out alive.... Ghazgull and draigo permitted

 farrowking37 wrote:
I personally don't like the way he does 2 different things.
He gives you a better shooting ability, but carries no gun so any nice shooty units won't benifit from the extra weapon.

The only reason i would take him is to protect one nice shooty unit in your army from cc units, but even then it might not save them.

That's why you add him to a unit that's already decent in close combat, like Tactical Terminators or Sternguard veterans. They're both best served up in the front, shooting, charging, or taking charges.

Makumba wrote:
If you want to use lysander ,then play SW . Take the anvil. He costs less does the same stuff[kills stuff] + throws his hammer doesnt take up HQ slot . In a normal marine army it is better to take an ally SW lord with or without TWC mount and the saga that gives eternal .

Arjac only has 2 wounds and costs almost as much without benefiting your army in any way beyond "guy who hits a thing" instead of giving them Stubborn, Bolster Defences, or Bolter Drill.

I still don't understand how people keep saying he does 2 things? Especially in 6th Ed. IMO he does 1 thing extremely well. Buffs tactical termies or sternguard. He adds protection to sternguard that is the difference between firing once and dying or surviving to run amok. With the new wound allocation and LoS he has become incredible in a drop pod with sternguard. 6" disembark, Lysander up front, and bolter drill assuring your hitting at a 75%+ clip. I play a lot of marine armies in my area and his bolter drill on the ap3 special ammo is invaluable. Add to that the squad now has a 2+/3++ EW shield sitting up front and it becomes a unit that has to be dealt with but almost impossible to wipe the turn it drops. Then he'll typically break off and start smashing squads in the enemies backfield. While the sternguard continue to wreak havoc. Add to that he buffs a ruins for scouts or something else to deck chair in and adds durability to a second unit. The only problem I see is he forces you too lose combat tactics. But since I typically run him with vulkan it's never a problem for me.

Lysander is str 10 in close combat and gives +1 to the damage chart plus a bunch of wounds for cheap. He is the best marine close combat character in any book, including GK due to cost.

Actually, to say he only does 2 things is doing him a bit of disservice. The only way you can say he only does one thing well is if you are being vague and saying "The one this he does is be AWESOME"

He costs 25 more points then a TDA TH/SS captain, just a a baseline for what you are getting for your points. And that's with a plain TH, not the Fist of Dorn, which might be worth the 25 point difference.

He has 4 wounds, and eternal warrior. He is probably the toughest thing to kill in the entire codex. The only other character that is close is Calgar (the other 4W EW character) and he's not packing a SS. So one thing he does well is take a beating. And with the new wound allocation, that makes the squad he is with a LOT tougher.

He can beat things to death. The only other thing that hits like him in CC is the seismic hammer on an ironclad dreadnought. And he does it with 3 attacks with a master crafted weapon. You don't get S10 hits as marines unless you're in a walking coffin. Depending how you count things, you might just lump this with the first point as "He's a beatstick" But he's really good on both counts.

Then the bolter drill. This is where things get fun. Because this is a force multiplier. It's not just him being awesome, it's him making everyone with him better. While this is a more focused multiplier then Vulcan's army wide one, it is still quite powerful. The one big drawback is that he's so good in close combat, you want him there. But he can make a unit of sternguard godlike, and beef up the firepower of tac terminators. As a plus, both those units are no slouches in CC with veteran stat lines.

The bolster defenses is just the cherry on top. I don't know of you want to count that among the things he does. But it is there.

Making your army stubborn is sort of a wash. There are pros and cons to it.

You could field him with assault terminators, and he'd still be worth it. He could never see CC with a shooting squad, and would still be worth it. He is just that good. There might be tougher, killier, or better buffing characters in other codexes, but in C:SM, he's what we have. And that's just fine.

Stubborn was better last edition where units could escort you off the table. This edition you don't get escorted off the table, you fall back and auto regroup no matter how close the enemy is to you. This makes stubborn kind of bad now because C:SM aren't generally great in assault.

I feel like Lysander just doesn't change the army enough in a great way to warrant his point cost. No doubt he's tough. I'd be willing to bet he could take on Draigo due to the changes of power weapons.