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Sorry if its been asked before, but upon looking through the DE codex I came across the rule for Leliths Penetrating blade. It states that her attacks ignore armour, as I guess RAI means just her cc attacks, but RAW it would suggest her ranged attacks aswell.

Imagine a plasma grenade that ignores armour.

Discuss and thoughts please.

Heaven forbid she gets her hands on a quad-gun!

I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

I don't have the DE Codex on me, how's the rule worded? I somehow doubt the OP is word for word

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

I don't have the DE Codex on me, how's the rule worded? I somehow doubt the OP is word for word

I don't have it either, but I fail to see how a rule that is clearly meant to be applied to her CC weapon can also be used with shooting.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

I don't have the DE Codex on me, how's the rule worded? I somehow doubt the OP is word for word

I don't have it either, but I fail to see how a rule that is clearly meant to be applied to her CC weapon can also be used with shooting.

If you don't have it but say it's "clearly" worded... I am confuzzled.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

I don't have the DE Codex on me, how's the rule worded? I somehow doubt the OP is word for word

Just a reminder though, this forum is based off of RAW. If you don't have the Raw and cannot back up your judgement than don't pass any.

The rule simply says her attacks ignore armor saves

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and say no, as the rule clearly refers to her CC attacks.

I don't have the DE Codex on me, how's the rule worded? I somehow doubt the OP is word for word

Just a reminder though, this forum is based off of RAW. If you don't have the Raw and cannot back up your judgement than don't pass any.

Alright, fair enough.
Out of curiosity, is the penetrating blade a weapon in itself?
And doesn't the term "attacks" in general, without anything such as shooting are whatever before it, generally refer to CC attacks?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Just a reminder though, this forum is based off of RAW.

That's not what the Forum Tenets say:

 Lorek wrote:
4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.
...
A Few Definitions
For those who haven't seen these terms before.

Rules As Written - This refers to playing by the strict letter of the rules, which can lead to odd or counterintuitive situations.

How You Would Play It - This refers to taking small liberties with the rules to smooth out the odd or counterintuitive situations listed above.

Rules as written, all attacks made by Lelith ignore armour saves.
"Her attacks ignore armour saves"

No reference is made to CC or range.

Pyrian wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Just a reminder though, this forum is based off of RAW.

That's not what the Forum Tenets say:

 Lorek wrote:
4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.
...
A Few Definitions
For those who haven't seen these terms before.

Rules As Written - This refers to playing by the strict letter of the rules, which can lead to odd or counterintuitive situations.

How You Would Play It - This refers to taking small liberties with the rules to smooth out the odd or counterintuitive situations listed above.

Touche,
however someones opinion about a subject matter, of which he admits to not having the codex to kinda falls under this one as well.


2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs.
Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

now back to topic.

It sounds like RAW it's all her attacks both in CC and shooting.

Right they are talking about her daggers unless her daggers can shoot then its cc only.

Lungpickle wrote:
Right they are talking about her daggers unless her daggers can shoot then its cc only.

back it up?

It's the same thing with Epidemius. Enough kills and Nurgle followers attacks ignore armor. Faq classified this applied to both.

If I'm remembering correctly.

But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Kinda sorta, 1 grenade a turn won't break anything for sure. It's not too OP if OP'd at all.

I say go for it, looks within the rules and not huge.

I don't know, i tend to think it's 'common sense' to apply the rule as written as much as is practical rather than trying to divine the 'intent' of the rule in reference to it's interaction with other parts of the game; especially if that context isn't written somewhere in the rules themselves.

Basically: if the rule says it applies to 'attacks' and there is nothing which states any limitations on the type of attack, isn't it simpler to apply it literally?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Kinda sorta, 1 grenade a turn won't break anything for sure. It's not too OP if OP'd at all.

I say go for it, looks within the rules and not huge.

4 TL STR7 AP4 attacks a turn with a 48" range that ignore armor saves is pretty powerful though.
And that's pretty easy to get.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Could be a metaphor for how her attacks are like a penetrating blade!

As for Lelith quad gun, well, bombard her like mad then, she only has a 4++ save and T3, throw some high strength shots in, she'll die with 1 unsaved wound. She does cost a load for what little she can do, wouldn't mind at all if her penetrating blade rule made her slightly better.

rigeld2 wrote: 4 TL STR7 AP4 attacks a turn with a 48" range that ignore armor saves is pretty powerful though.
And that's pretty easy to get.

Yeah but it would cost 275 points to do and Lelith dies in a stiff breeze.

More on topic though, the rule states that her attacks ignore armor saves. Just attacks, not cc attacks. Does it make sense? Not really, but that's how a lot of 40k is.

Starless Night wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: 4 TL STR7 AP4 attacks a turn with a 48" range that ignore armor saves is pretty powerful though.
And that's pretty easy to get.

Yeah but it would cost 275 points to do and Lelith dies in a stiff breeze.

More on topic though, the rule states that her attacks ignore armor saves. Just attacks, not cc attacks. Does it make sense? Not really, but that's how a lot of 40k is.

Given that, until this edition, she had no way of making a ranged attack, it's not all that surprising that the wording is a little "loose". Why specify CC attacks when the model comes with no ranged weapons, couldn't throw grenades and there was no battlefield debris that she could fire in 5th?

Penetrating Blade. Lelith places her blows with such uncanny precision she can always find a chink in the enemy's armor. Her attacks ignore armor saves.

That would read CC to me with "her blows".

Fluff sentence is fluff. The only part that is actual rules is "Her attacks ignore armor saves."

Maybe she's blowing kisses with grenades?

The second part to me is what matters

"her attacks ignore armor saves."

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Kinda sorta, 1 grenade a turn won't break anything for sure. It's not too OP if OP'd at all.

I say go for it, looks within the rules and not huge.

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.
She is already a powerful CC killing machine. Don't make her even more deadly.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.

If someone foolishly spends points on Lelith Hesperax, they deserve to occasionally have her kill something, instead the usual.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Kinda sorta, 1 grenade a turn won't break anything for sure. It's not too OP if OP'd at all.

I say go for it, looks within the rules and not huge.

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.
She is already a powerful CC killing machine. Don't make her even more deadly.

Stop clumping your termies so close together? It's only str 4 eh? they do have invul saves.

You are taking this one thing way outta hand. I'd be more concerned with like the fortress of redemption and her manning a Heavy Bolter ... lol

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.

If someone foolishly spends points on Lelith Hesperax, they deserve to occasionally have her kill something, instead the usual.

She has about 9 attacks (4 Attacks+A League apart. WS of opponent is usually 4. Her's is 9). And they ignore armor. And she has initiative 9.
If you fail to kill something with her, you did something wrong.

Does she have a rule that prevents her from joining units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that is absurd. Common sense says that a rule with a name like "penetrating blade" would affect only CC attacks.
Does she have grenades that she can throw, because if so, then nades just got stupidly powerful.

Kinda sorta, 1 grenade a turn won't break anything for sure. It's not too OP if OP'd at all.

I say go for it, looks within the rules and not huge.

Tell that to the 5 man termy squad that gets nuked by a plasma grenade, which ignores armor saves due to ridiculous wording.
She is already a powerful CC killing machine. Don't make her even more deadly.

Stop clumping your termies so close together? It's only str 4 eh? they do have invul saves.

You are taking this one thing way outta hand. I'd be more concerned with like the fortress of redemption and her manning a Heavy Bolter ... lol

Oh, I don't play SM. I play necrons, who are much, much worse in CC. It's not so much the threat of her wiping out the entire squad with a nade, than her softening them up easily, and then charging them with her ridiculous number of attacks.
And it just comes across as cheap. The only reason why it doesn't specify CC, is because there was no reason to; she had no ranged attacks, nor did she have the capability to acquire ranged attacks.

She can join units freely.

Like DE are supposed to be, she can pile on the hurt, but she is very very fragile.

She also costs an obscene amount of points for what she does, and is overcosted even then She's ok in challenges, but otherwise not that effective.

Sure, she has a lot of attacks. At S 3..

Against a marine unit she will get something like 9 attacks, and hit with about 6 of them. 2 will wound, ignore armour and kill marines. 2 marines dead isn't that much for an IC. How many Marines can Mephiston kill per round? He is near the same points for way more badassery. There are cheaper IC's that can pile on more hurt than she can.

Her stats look OMG OP!!! if you look only at the number of attacks and the WS/I entries, but she really isn't all that for her points.

Against Assault termies with TH/SS:

SHe will hit 6 times, wound twice, have at least one blocked by the SS (and often both).

They then get to hit her back.

Any hit she doesn't save, she's deader than canned spam.

Any Powerfist (even from an IG) or S6 attack she fails her save on (and her saves aren't that godly) will have wounded her on 2's and instakilled her. A Marine IC would likely still keep on trucking, muttering about being slightly scratched.