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Right now I am having an extremely difficult time against multiple armies. I am brand new to nids and am just finding them super effective on turn two and then its more or less dependent on my rolls to win or lose a game. We always play 1250 or 1500 pts, lately more 1250.

Hive Tyrant- (Twin linked Dev-15, Hive commander- 25, Wings- 60)= 270
3x Zoanthropes- (Mycetic Spore, Barbed Strangler)= 235
Doom of Malantai- (Mycetic Spore, Barbed Strangler)= 145
15x Hormagaunts- (Toxic Sacs)= 120
10x Termigaunts= 50
Tervigon= 160
Trygon Prime- (Regen)= 265

I like the list I can through down a lot of pressure turn two, my doom usually gets focused allowing me to get some pretty effective shots off with the zoans or charge my trygon into something that is probably going to end up being a pool of blood. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for a less offensive, WELL ROUNDED tyranid listing for 1250 or 1500 pts.

Not much of a Nid player myself but my mate uses whatever spawns terms very effectively and it usually draws a lot of first turn fire.
It really depends on what you are vs'ing though

imperial guard, tau and space puppies. always those three. the odd time Necrons.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
imperial guard, tau and space puppies. always those three. the odd time Necrons.

well i play necrons and i know the term spawner can be a real pain in the ass to vs. as for space marines I think having an army that uses different types of elites and troops and tries to be varied works well. always keep your opponent guessing what you will do. Tryanids seem easy to defend against when theyre predictable.
best unit i have faced is the swarmlord, never managed to kill that S.O.B

Well I always run a spawner, and I find that 9/10 I'll have board presence to seriously hold all mid table objectives, I find that up until those flyers come in I am going to own the board against imperial guard. Swarmlord is essentially interchangable at the point cost for my Hive tyrant, but I hate that he footslogs (I guess he would be good company with the hormagaunts but if you take him I feel you need Tyrant guards) and that also gets rid of my answer for killing a Flyer.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
Well I always run a spawner, and I find that 9/10 I'll have board presence to seriously hold all mid table objectives, I find that up until those flyers come in I am going to own the board against imperial guard. Swarmlord is essentially interchangable at the point cost for my Hive tyrant, but I hate that he footslogs (I guess he would be good company with the hormagaunts but if you take him I feel you need Tyrant guards) and that also gets rid of my answer for killing a Flyer.

what about (although i know it seems untryannid like) an aegis defense line to help with the flyers?

despite it being utter nonsense that these options are available to tyranids I think it really is the only viable option.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
despite it being utter nonsense that these options are available to tyranids I think it really is the only viable option.

well it could easily be something which the tryannid found and changed. maybe see with the players you're vs'in about trading the wargear options of the aegis defense lines with something tryannid equivalent (not sure what though)

Yeah maybe strap some adrenal glands on some imps backs and green stuff some veins. Make them a brainbug commanded aegis defense line.

Take hive guard instead of thropes, and if you can free up more points, take more hive guard.

S8 assault 2 guns that pretty much ignore cover.
And the best bit? they ignore jink.
So simply use them to pop flyers as on average your going to hit 3 times with 3 in a unit.

Also, being S8, they can handle most armour.
Use the tyrant with smash attacks for anything big and armoured.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
Yeah maybe strap some adrenal glands on some imps backs and green stuff some veins. Make them a brainbug commanded aegis defense line.

bet it would look awesome

OK as a seasoned nids player, with a few editions worth of time under me and a sizable army.... I can see a few mistakes.

Tyrant mistakes: wings twin devourers --- probably one of the lowest rated builds for a tyrant EVERYONE seems to like it because it looks scary as hell on paper. in reality its a ... decent choice for a brick of points. by getting rid of whip... hes just an MC no initiative reductions no insta kills on some heroes (even as rare as it is bonesword has cut down MANY heroes or multiple wound models)
for 230 points you get a far more durable unit whos way better at melee (what hes meant for anyways) and has a MUCH better gun. load him with HVC or STC (personally I like the HVC its actually viable in 6th edition) "but shadow... how do I close the range with him" You dont. sorry you just dont. You walk him up the field taking shots at whatever you can with whatever weapon he has while avoiding LOS with as much ap1-2 as possible I prefer to knock down light apcs with him and assault squad after squad.

Trygon mistakes: regen.... sucks. period I ran it for a lot of games it literally did nothing. the few wounds you regen really arent worth it. most games my big guys are eiother flat out killed in one turn or they never die anyways. points will be FAR better elsewhere.

mycetic spores: drop the Barbed stranglers. ( its an awesome idea sometimes it pays off, but in general.. its a terrible choice and at that points cost.. again more solid choices elsewhere)

tervigon... I dont have enough input on them to be useful Ive heard good and bad about them... they are a cheap tough(ish) MC worthless in CC a very cheap tarpit can keep them busy all day....
"but shaddow they spit out babies... babies man...a lot of them too" Yeah they spit out easy to kill terrible melee units who all die when he dies (most likely) also these terrible infant gaunts have the worst load out possible... crappy guns. I am not a fan of them on paper and a ton of battle reports show both sides of the coin... but if i were you I would really try to find a way to increase termagaunt squads and give the devourers... I cannot stress that enough. and 160 points is 16 devigaunts. want to know the best way to kill 10 space marines? hitting them with 60 shots from a 200 point squad.... numbers my tyranid brother numbers.. ALSO its 3 damn shots... at higher str and range... WHAT?!? best upgrade for them period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also the hiveguard to zoanthrope argument... its old... they literally are so even in utility its a near pointless argument. it really is. They are both great units. one can easy pop light apcs without line of sight, one can easy pop a landraider or monolith or str5 ap3 blast template marines.... AFTER spodding in right where you need them. both units are amazing if given the point range id field a squad of both.

Surprised to hear you say a HVC is a good choice. I see nothing but match after match with disappointment. Am I doing something wrong. They can't pop transports, and often scatter to nothing. I find them pretty meh TBO. That's me though. Nothing against your comments I just have yet to see a BS or HVC pull its weight. I stand by the devourers. I have to respectly disagree with this comment:

wings twin devourers --- probably one of the lowest rated builds

Tyrants are I5 so not all that bad anyways. And if you got wings and devourers you are shooting not CCing.

I have never played Nids, but I have to agree with Shadowmyth515 in that most Tyranid players I face never upgrade their Spores and also seem to shun Regen. Most lists I see have far more Gaunts than you do and they tend to bring a LOT of one single type of Troops, i.e. either type of gaunt or 'stealers. The fashion right now seems to point to termagants.
I can only tell you which Tyranid units I fear the most, of course, since I'm not a Tyranid expert. I'd say the nastiest troops are Genestealers and Hormagaunts (both with toxin), much more so than termagants. With the new rules for fearless, Hormagaunts are scary, so I might recommend them to you. Remember to play to your strengths, don't try to outshoot Guard or Tau, you'll lose every time. In any case, you might consider spending some points you saved from BS and Regen to get old adversary on your HT (especially if you decide to use termagants), that ability is nasty.
About Devilgants: In my experience, they always come in spores, wipe out a unit of infantry and then they die next turn. Seeing that you face Guard quite often, sticking a lot of points into units that will be showered in pieplates may not be the best idea. But against SM, it certainly is an option.

To each their own on tyrant builds, I just have a ton of experience with them. They are an expensive let down. the way you run your flyrant is what... 285 points?

You take a tyrant, you take away some of his melee awesomeness (hes still good dont get me wrong I5 isnt terrible but it still gets slaughtered by some armies) you take away his durability and you take away one of the nids FEW ranged guns... and you add a little bit of speed and MINIMUM 20 more points? .... .... ....

HVC cant open vehicles eh? marine apcs... sure... still can immobilize, destroy weaponry and shred hull points, then again against marines I dont use it for vehicles. amazing vs those little bastards in the back that i cant reach that keep trying to put lascannon holes in my face. How good is an immobilized apc? only as good as its weaponry and how fast the contents can move on from it. not to mention crew stunned and shaken lock with hull point removal is still a decent strategy.

however against orks, against Dark eldar or any open topped vehicle... for its point cost is downright amazing.

I also LOVE the stranglethorn cannon. you have to remember it may not have the ap needed for marines, and marines are a good portion of most armies youll face... but for 20 points it fills a distance and a str and a blast template gap that most other guns do not. its pinning as well. also against dark eldar... eldar... ork.. other nids...chaos... imp guard....the ap is adequate so is the large blast template.

AS for your flyrant build it is the best choice for a flyrant. there is no doubt about that, you dont put cannons on a flyrant. i just think the extra points are just FAR better used in other areas, I also play against skilled opponents. If you play against mostly beginners.. they dont know target priority they dont know about fire till it falls they dont know how to control where your stuff goes and why... so against new players hes an ok choice.

with all the points you shave in other areas... you almost have enough for another MCs or swarm up your troops a little bit and give them punch.
hormagaunts need toxin sacs... adrenal glands... are meh debatable makes your charge vs meqs amazing.

termagaunts need devourers. the number of shots they field are absolutely devastating. yeah yeah yeah no ap... ok well with 30-90 shots i wonder how many saves your going to have to take... your bound to fail eventually. not to mention the leadership reductions.

Like i said.. to each their own... this games about 30% list build 30% tactics and 40% pleasing the dice gods. Im not knocking flyrants, they arent a TERRIBLE unit like... pyrovore or ripper swarms... but there are just better choices out there at that high of a point cost.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
I am just finding them super effective on turn two and then its more or less dependent on my rolls to win or lose a game.

Isn't this the principal behind the game though dude...?

I haven't used zoanthropes, though I have used the doom a lot. Thropes have a higher upside, but also much lower downside from Hive guard. Having to make psychic tests to be effective means that anyone talking Eldar allies can shut the zoanthropes down. I have three thropes to try out, but I still find the hive guard much more compelling. The one thing Thropes are definitely better for is anti-terminator duty; and since 2+ armor abounds in the game, that is no small thing.

The Tervigon is awesome, taken as a troop. The game is full of objective scenarios now, and this is a troop that can last, and one that can make several extra troop units for you. I've won all but two of my 6th ed games (granted, only ten or so) largely on the backs of two tervigons. People also tend to shoot at them early, giving your other MC's a chance to get across the table.

I don't bother with CC only troops anymore. They can be effective, but the odds are they will not be. Screw the hormagaunts, especially in such a small number. Spend those points on hive guard.

I like using units of 10-12 devilgaunts in a pod. It makes sure they get at least once chance to shoot, and often more. I don't use these as much at 1500 points or less, though.

I put VC's on my pods. VC's are a threat to more things, especially the rear's of vehicles. It makes opponents shoot at pods instead of just moving outside of their 6" range, and if they are shooting at pods, they aren't shooting at other MC's or troops. Try to drop the pods where they can use their tentacles on the turn they drop, especially on the backs of vehicles.

The doom is hit and miss. If troops are in their vehicles, it really doesn't do much. You can use Zoanthrope psychics with it according to the FAQ, so they are far from useless, but a smart opponent often can negate the doom.

My HT's are Armor 2, HVC or TLD armed, and have Old Adversary. That is an incredibly powerful ability, especially combined with devilgaunts and hive guard. They still have a lashwhip and bonesword for fighting. Armor 2 dramatically increases survivability, as long as you don't stick him out in front of a bunch of las cannons.

Note that there is no great answer for flyers, but bugs done have one now. Hiveguard are probably the best you can do. The FLying HT with TLD is valid, but at armor 3 I think it dies too easily, and the grounding rules are brutal.

A bug Aegis line is a great choice for keeping devilgants alive, but I prefer to keep them mobile.

Here is my most recent 1500 point list:
2X Hive Tyrant, TLD, LW+BS, AS, Old Adversary,
2X 3 hivegaurd
3X 10 termagants w devourers
2X tervigons, AG+TS+catalyst. (AG probably not that useful)

Keep the tervigons away from the devilgaunts with devours when possible, but keep devilgants and Hiveguard within 6" of HT's

I can also run Hive guard in groups of 2 to help spread out damage.

I also run 1500 points with 1X HT, 6X HG, 2 units devilgants, 2 tervigons, and either a tyrannofex or Trygon prime. Tyrannofex is also hit or miss, but it can clean off the board when it is hitting!
2X Hive Tyrant, TLD, LW+BS, AS, Old Adversary,

Mysticdog wrote:
Keep the tervigons away from the devilgaunts with devours when possible, but keep devilgants and Hiveguard within 6" of HT'

Whats the theory behind this might i ask?

"Should a tervigon be slain, every termagaunt brood spawned or otherwise within 6" immediately suffers 3d6 strength 3, ap - hits."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the way he built his list he put OA (old adversary) on his tyrants. Allowing rerolls of 1's to hit ... and I dont have my book on me but I believe to wound as well. Its called an OA bubble any unit within the OA bubble of 6 the preferred enemy buff, since preferred enemy isnt a chosen army like say orks... its preferred enemy EVERYTHING. This makes gaunt screening with devigaunts and hive guard AMAZING. yea its only re rolls of 1's but... there are so many bullets and hive guard only miss the first round on 2's so... its really helpful. for 25 pts if your running a devigaunt or Hive guard army ... it is by far onme of the better upgrades.

For the tyrant I would also go for the full TKL devourer loadout - 12 twin-linked shots will cover your anti-flyer issues. I just don't tend to put him into comaby with anything lethal as his 3+ armour is negated by almost all power weapons and he has 4 wounds not 6 likel trygons, tervigons etc.

Tervigon - you really want to look at 200 pts for him and not the base 160. AG and TS boost the termagants massively - S4 on the charge means they can glance vehicles and a guarantted 4+ to wound from the toxin sacs. Also the tervigon himself often can then get a rerollable 2+ to wound which is really good. Catalyst for FNP is great or trade it in so you get 2 powers on the biomancy table. Win either way. For 5 pts I do give mine scything talons so I can reroll 1s to hit. Amazing how often that pays for itself.

Hormogaunts I just haven't gone anywhere near in 6th. I really think they are now Nids' least effective troop choice. T3 and 6+ armour save means the unit is shredded in shooting by lamot anything and cover is generally now 5+ rathr than 4+. Proxy them as extra termagants is my recommendation on the models.

Regen only worth it on the Prime as it's 10 pts. Elsewhere it's 25 pts and that's too much certainly at sub 1,500 pt levels.

I did run full reserves in 5th but can't in 6th. The plan is still vlaid though providing there's sufficent LOS blocking terrain for the units starting on the board. Remember if the deployed units die in T1 then it's an auto lose!!

For the lower points level I would lose the extra weapons on the spores as well, maybe even lose the prime upgrade on the trygon. Suggestion in keeping to the reserves/spore style list you're playing rather than a complete rewrite:

HQ Flyrant, TL devourers, HC 285
EL 2 zoeys in spore 180
EL 2 zoeys in spore 180
EL Doom in spore 130
TR tervigon 200
TR 10 termagants 100
HS trygon, TS 210

That's 1,285. A bit risky with only 2 troops, but those 3 elite units in spores can shred your opponent. It's certainly fun to play.