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There seems to be a huge stigma with taking blood claws and as a result leaving most wolf players to only care for one of the two options available to them. Also there is a massive selection of elites for us wolves to choose though most people only take wolf guard or lone wolves, more often than not the poor old wolf scouts never see any action.

I propose swapping blood claws into fast attack ( consolidating all claw types under one entry) making them too preoccupied with combat to claim objectives. This would let more traditional wolf style of play be viable (all warriors fighting on their feet) even if you fill all FoS.

Slot the wolf scouts into troops, after all capturing objectives is part of what they do and they are of the same 'rank' as grey hunters. To show the true nature of the wolf scouts they should lose counter attack, they are loners and don't share the same bond as other wolf packs. Replace it with furious charge to represent their cold brutality in lightning assaults to silence lookouts. And give them the option for camo cloaks (3 points per model would be on the money) so they could optionally fill the same role role as other SM scouts all be it at higher cost.

Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Jefffar wrote:
Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Accept that Space Wolves just shouldn't be cheaper... ever.

 Lord Magnus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Accept that Space Wolves just shouldn't be cheaper... ever.

As a primarily wolf player I agree with that. Blood claws are cheap enough given the SRs they have and the wargear available to them. The issue I presented was more that blood claws get no love as troops and wolf scouts in elites are much the same. Altering their position at least gives us a viable second option for troops (filling a more aggressive role with the wolf scouts) and a cheap fast attack option for those sons of Russ that choose to fight on their feet. Also allowing these packs to live up to their back story.

I suppose one could make the argument that Blood claws being in fast only could reduce the cost slightly (like by one point) as they no longer count as scoring units, but that's neither here nor there IMO. Also I'd just like the option to attach a jump pack wolf guard if they upgrade to jump packs, its ridiculous that sky claws are the only pack of blood claw type units that don't get the option and they are the ones that need it the most.

Sorry Bausk, in my comment to the other I forgot to give feedback. I like the idea of Blood Claws being Fast Attack, however, I still think they wouldn't see use, ESPECIALLY if Wolf Scouts (Which are a great unit btw) is changed to troops (They are to good for troops, well placed Wolf Scouts can ruin your day).

 Lord Magnus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Accept that Space Wolves just shouldn't be cheaper... ever.

I didn't say which unit to adjust.

Though I am liking the idea of making the BC fast attack, removing Sky Claws and Swift Claws. And making the BC upgradeable with cheap jetpacks or bikes. Perhaps Ragnar Blackmane could turn them back into troops.

I like my Wolf Scouts as Elites, it fits the fluff and the capabilities they have. I've never really felt that I've had to make a hard choice whenever I put them in a list or left them out. It's all about the plan you want to have. Sometimes a dreadnought fits better than scouts, sometimes scouts fit better than a Lone Wolf. So no, for scouts as troops I'd leave that for Erik Morkai to unlock.

Jefffar wrote:

 Lord Magnus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Accept that Space Wolves just shouldn't be cheaper... ever.

I didn't say which unit to adjust.

Though I am liking the idea of making the BC fast attack, removing Sky Claws and Swift Claws. And making the BC upgradeable with cheap jetpacks or bikes. Perhaps Ragnar Blackmane could turn them back into troops.

I like my Wolf Scouts as Elites, it fits the fluff and the capabilities they have. I've never really felt that I've had to make a hard choice whenever I put them in a list or left them out. It's all about the plan you want to have. Sometimes a dreadnought fits better than scouts, sometimes scouts fit better than a Lone Wolf. So no, for scouts as troops I'd leave that for Erik Morkai to unlock.

Even better idea here^, put all the claws is one slot (fast attack) and make them upgradable to different claw units.

Jefffar wrote:

 Lord Magnus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Only issue I have with Blood Claws is they cost the same as the Grey Hunters and are not as good. Adjust the pricing and you'll see them more often.

Accept that Space Wolves just shouldn't be cheaper... ever.

I didn't say which unit to adjust.

Though I am liking the idea of making the BC fast attack, removing Sky Claws and Swift Claws. And making the BC upgradeable with cheap jetpacks or bikes. Perhaps Ragnar Blackmane could turn them back into troops.

I like my Wolf Scouts as Elites, it fits the fluff and the capabilities they have. I've never really felt that I've had to make a hard choice whenever I put them in a list or left them out. It's all about the plan you want to have. Sometimes a dreadnought fits better than scouts, sometimes scouts fit better than a Lone Wolf. So no, for scouts as troops I'd leave that for Erik Morkai to unlock.

The issue remains that Grey Hunters are kinda the only Troops most wolf players take. Logan and Cainis make sense with their forced (as in they must be troops) troop selections, well I couldn't care about Cainis but his fits his fluff anyway Popping Wolf scouts in troops only facilitates the option to field a detachment of Eriks company in any game. Given their limited utility and less than specialized role presently I don't think they warrant elite status. At this point Standard SM scouts are more suited to an elite slot given the utility and survivability.The only thing Wolf scouts have rocking is BEL and that's not that useful considering we can't assault from reserve and the only guns worth using have a 12" range. Any half competent player would stay more than 12" from any edge and kill the scouts as they rock on to the table.

Some special character sergeants might add a little more to their playability.

Say one that makes them more likely to wolf out?

I'm confused as to how moving Blood Claws to Fast Attack is going to make them more desirable. You are simply removing their ability to Score and thus make them an even worse comparison. All you have achieved is that the few fluffy players who base armies on Blood Claws, now cannot.

Wolf Scouts as troops could work, but I'm not convinced it should be a standard thing. Perhaps if your Warlord had the Saga of the Hunter (? The Outflank one), they could become Troops if they don't make use of Behind Enemy Lines. I just don't think that you should be capable of dumping 6 units safely into the backfield at the drop of a hat.

The Furious Charge / Counter Attack thing could be quite cool, certainly something to consider.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'm confused as to how moving Blood Claws to Fast Attack is going to make them more desirable. You are simply removing their ability to Score and thus make them an even worse comparison. All you have achieved is that the few fluffy players who base armies on Blood Claws, now cannot.

Wolf Scouts as troops could work, but I'm not convinced it should be a standard thing. Perhaps if your Warlord had the Saga of the Hunter (? The Outflank one), they could become Troops if they don't make use of Behind Enemy Lines. I just don't think that you should be capable of dumping 6 units safely into the backfield at the drop of a hat.

The Furious Charge / Counter Attack thing could be quite cool, certainly something to consider.

The point to moving them to fast gives them a whole new FoC slot to be used in at the cheaper 15pts per model rather than buying sky claws or swift claws. That's the appeal that gets them used. There is no reason they cant be brought back to troops by a lords special rule.

Having Wolf Scouts, the aggressive flexible rapidly deployable troop, in troops with two alterations makes a competitive choice for the grey hunters, the close range fire fight scrapper line troops.

The reason I wouldn't run them is the WS3 BS3... I mean compared to Grey Hunters who have CCW, BP, and bolters and who can take a freaking plasma or Melta gun for free??? Why would I ever pass that up for a WS3 BS3 noob?

Blood Claws aren't terrific, but they can be pretty terrifying in a big blob of 15 and hard to deal with.

I think a simple fix would be to keep them as they are and replace their current unique special rules with Rage (which is pretty much what they have now anyways) and either Fleet or Crusader. Sure they're still 15 points per model and only have WS 3 and BS 3, but they get more attacks on the charge (if they have Bolt Pistol and CCW they essentially get 4 Attacks each on the charge, that's 60 Attacks for a blob of 15), can be taken in larger blobs, and would be more mobile due to Fleet or Crusader.

Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

TanKoL wrote:
Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

You, sir, definitely have a point. I fully concur with this idea.

 Marik Law wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

You, sir, definitely have a point. I fully concur with this idea.

I dont fully agree but it seems that may be the way its shaping up if the CSM codex is anything to go by. The CSM have two weapons with the purchase of a third optional for like 1 or 2 points. Seems fair for that price but im not sold due to the limitations on GHs already when compared to CSM and other MEQs. The lack of character model is a big one, you have to use an elite slot just to get one. and if you roll in a transport then you have to miss out on one special weapon. Its not all gravy for GHs.

 Bausk wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

You, sir, definitely have a point. I fully concur with this idea.

I dont fully agree but it seems that may be the way its shaping up if the CSM codex is anything to go by. The CSM have two weapons with the purchase of a third optional for like 1 or 2 points. Seems fair for that price but im not sold due to the limitations on GHs already when compared to CSM and other MEQs. The lack of character model is a big one, you have to use an elite slot just to get one. and if you roll in a transport then you have to miss out on one special weapon. Its not all gravy for GHs.

The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though.

TanKoL wrote:
Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

I would appreciate if gw did this, this is the solution (sw is my only army also)

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Marik Law wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
Instead of trying to find weird ways of making the Blood Claws more appealing, why don't you attack the root of the issue there ?

It's not that Blood Claws are overpriced (same for the scouts by the way)
It's simply that the Grey Hunters are way underpriced
Give them their "real" price and you'll see more Blood Claws on the tables.
I'd say they should cost about 18-19 points if compared to C:SM or 17 when compared to the new CSM prices (paying 2-3 pts for 3 weapons, ATSKNF, Counter-attack, acute senses)

You, sir, definitely have a point. I fully concur with this idea.

I dont fully agree but it seems that may be the way its shaping up if the CSM codex is anything to go by. The CSM have two weapons with the purchase of a third optional for like 1 or 2 points. Seems fair for that price but im not sold due to the limitations on GHs already when compared to CSM and other MEQs. The lack of character model is a big one, you have to use an elite slot just to get one. and if you roll in a transport then you have to miss out on one special weapon. Its not all gravy for GHs.

The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though.

Space wolf GHs excel at one area of combat, close range fire fights. They are ok at assault but better when they are charged. Their options that make them good at their role makes them expensive quickly. If you don't they are good but nothing to write home about. One of their USRs might as well not exist as its only used by two units in the entire army. They are great for people who play dumb by just moving toward the enemy as fast as possible shooting as much as possible but can be leathal if played right, just as any unit can be. Pretty much that what this boils down to, people having a hissy fit over GHs because every dumbass and their dog (giggle snort) play space wolves with o brain. Rolling nothing but rune priests.GHs and long fangs with missile launchers hurr hurr hurr. Not like that dumbed down predictable tactic is hard to counter, its just most people can't be arsed thinking and take the same dumbass view on tactics and just spam & charge. Its pathetic.

That said, paying 1 point for a Bolt pistol, I could do happily.