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I've only ever seen negative comments for the whirlwind but I kind of think it's nice. The incendiary missiles seem to be kind of useless since the only difference between them and vengeance missiles is ignore cover and barrage seems to that anyway. Other than that if you just use the vengeance missiles it seems good.

Large pie plate that splatters light infantry, can be fired without LOS and doubles your chances at getting that glancing hit on AV11. Clearly not meant as anti-armor but everything has its role right? I just wonder about the 85 point cost...whether that too expensive or not.

Does anyone use these on a regular basis? Perhaps have any insight on its place in a list or its overall usefulness?

There are two types of bad units. The first type are units that, when observed in a vacuum, suck. An example would be Necron Flayed Ones. They don't really do anything, and if they were the only elite choice available to necrons, I guess I wouldn't be taking any elites ever. Then there are bad units which aren't bad in of themselves, but competing units in the codex, sometimes even competing for the same FOC spot, are either more powerful, versatile, or efficient. The best example I can think of is another Necrons example, this time with the fast attack slot. Wraiths are not only highly efficient (45 points gets you S6, 2 Wounds, 3 Attacks, a 3++, and Whipcoils, which effectively gives you infinite initiative) but also fill a major hole in most necron list's army composition (a CC unit). Additionally, Scarab Swarms are an extremely efficient tarpit unit that can strip armour from tanks (literally). The other two options, Destroyers and Tomb Blades, despite both being good units, don't offer quite as much as Scarabs or Wraiths usually will to a Necron army, as Destroyers are somewhat fragile and Tomb Blades provide weaponry that can be taken elsewhere in the book. That doesn't mean that most other armies wouldn't jump to take Tomb Blades or Destroyers, but just because they offer less than Wraiths or Scarabs they are seen as bad by comparison.

I suspect that the Whirlwind falls in this second category of bad. Just look at how it performs versus other heavy support options that perform the same role. For example, compare a dakka predator to a Whirlwind. A predator with an Autocannon and 2 Heavy Bolters is the same cost, has better armour, and can kill infantry nearly just as well (6 heavy bolter shots and 2 autocannon shots will take a chunk out of most squads), but is also able to do light anti-tank duty. The only real advantage that a Whirlwind has over a dakka predator is indirect fire (somewhat outweighed by the better front armour) and that the large blast template is slightly better against hordes.

In effect, the whirlwind isn't bad, but it just doesn't bring as much versatility to the table as other options in the codex.

That analysis is pretty solid, and held true pretty solidly through 5th edition. What it doesn't account for is the new unique capability that the Whirlwind brings that other SM units don't; which is sniping specific models out of the back/middle of a unit.

If you land a Whirlwind shot on (for example) the heavy weapon model in an enemy squad, and cover three or four models in that unit, all the wounds you roll are applied to that first, closest model to the hole in the template. So if you get three wounds, and the heavy weapon guy is that middle model, he has to take every single save and dies first.

Now, it can scatter off of course, but it's a unique capability and can be damn useful.

It's average at best.
The Imperial Guard Griffon is 10 points cheaper, and S6 instead of S5. Also packs a heavy bolter instead of storm bolters. And the ordnance re-rolls the scatter.

How often do you see griffons? It's cheaper and better, yet hardly ever gets any love (might be due to the lack of model).

-Matt

As RegalPhantom points out, there is just better things you can take. The only time I would recommend Whirlwinds is when you are tight on points and need some cheap anti-horde with long range.

The first type are units that, when observed in a vacuum, suck. An example would be Necron Flayed Ones. They don't really do anything, and if they were the only elite choice available to necrons, I guess I wouldn't be taking any elites ever.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How often do you see griffons? It's cheaper and better, yet hardly ever gets any love (might be due to the lack of model).

TBH the Griffon is one of the most underrated units in the codex, especially in smaller games where you have a hard time filling your heavy slots with the biggest guns. Mine has always worked very well, and I'll probably buy a second one soon. Also, it does have a model, and a very nice one even: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html

The problem with the Whirlwind is that it doesn't really fit very well with what the rest of the marine army wants to be doing. You're better off taking units that fill the core marine role of elite infantry than trying to add an inefficient barrage sniper to your list.

TFC fits the bill better than whirlwind. 15 points worth paying for the cannon's monumental firepower over the whirlwind.

 Mannahnin wrote:
That analysis is pretty solid, and held true pretty solidly through 5th edition. What it doesn't account for is the new unique capability that the Whirlwind brings that other SM units don't; which is sniping specific models out of the back/middle of a unit.

If you land a Whirlwind shot on (for example) the heavy weapon model in an enemy squad, and cover three or four models in that unit, all the wounds you roll are applied to that first, closest model to the hole in the template. So if you get three wounds, and the heavy weapon guy is that middle model, he has to take every single save and dies first.

Now, it can scatter off of course, but it's a unique capability and can be damn useful.

In the vein of things that changed in 6th, the dakka pred can shoot down light flyers, while the whirlwind cannot.

The main problem I have with the whirlwind is the redundant role. It is an excellent anti-horde unit. The problem is when I make my list, and think what do I have vs. hordes, I say "tactical squads." Massed bolter fire, with the odd multi-purpose unit (like typhoon speeders) generally gets the job done. So I see no need to bring a specialist unit that really only does one thing.

If I was fielding an oddball list (like bikes, or all scouts) that didn't field a lot of tactical squads, I might feel the need to shore up my anti-horde firepower. But I like tac squads, so I'm all set.

A whirl wind is approx the same cost as 5 marines from a tact squad. With the much greater range I would have though a better bet against hordes than 5 bolters. I think the problem with them has been nailed previously in that they take up one of the heavy support choices and leave you in the position of being lught on fire power to shoot down the tougher oponents.

When I started off with marines I got my rag tag force (I had to include everything I had + unofficial allies to make a 1500pt game) I got wiped out by a horde and would have love a whirlwind.
If I return to marines I would go for a whirl wind / vindicator combo Vs a horde. I've been told vindicators work well in two but it is a bit pricey on points.

If they could be taken as a detachment of 1-3 I would imagine they would become more popular again.

I play SW so I suppose long fangs would outshine a whirlwind any day for the same missile role. (minus that indirect and barrage thing)

What would it take to make it useful? Perhaps a krak-like missile so it has some anti-armor capability? It's always sad looking through your codex for new things to try out and having some units that will do nothing but gimp you if you take them.

Oh, whirlwind also has the pinning effect on its hits. Not sure if that increases its usefulness at all though...

I find whirlwinds fill a specific role. Play against Tau, Tyrannid or Orks and you are happy you have it. Play against Guard and you are throwing rocks while they are throwing boulders. Play against anyone with heavy armor and you can find something better/more efficient to serve the purpose.

The other problem is one - much like vindicators - is a nuisance so it comes down to is it worth fielding 2 or 3 of them.

Now you talk a tournament and all bets are off. You have to plan on what is being played in your area and unless you have a lot of Tyranid/Tau/Ork players, Whirlwinds are one of the first things you are going to cross off the list.

I like building lists and in the back of my mind is a flexible rather than specific build. That said I have ONE build out of hundreds that has whirlwinds in it. (It just so happens it is also the one build that has a fortress of redemption in it.)

The FLGS and the few friends I have that actually play 40k play orks, tau, nids, necron, grey knights and SW. I see what you are saying for the first three...AP4 large pie plate that denys cover saves would splatter huge swaths of infantry. I don't know what necrons have for armor saves but for the last two it would be all but useless.

We are also all playing at a max of 1000pts too if that changes anything. Although even if its great in 500-1000 point games theres the problem of having to buy it for it to sit on a shelf when i make it up to 1500+ games.

As for tournaments we don't really have many. The rare time when a mini tournament happens, none of us are WAAC. Lists tend to be what we currently own (still building armies) or what we want to try out.

Now if both rounds were 1S higher or - even at an upgrade cost - it could provide anti-air, and Whirlwinds would make a greater appearance in lists.

1. Inaccurate indirect fire. (1/3 hit the other scatters the full 2d6)

2. Low strength equals low out put.. So say you hit spot on 8 marines... 5 wound and maybe 2 kill. The incendiary round might do something but S4 limits it. So say you hit 10 pathfinders and manage to get 4 under the template, 2 kills.

Now 1 typhoon landspeeder provides more flexibility and speed to an army all for what 5 points more.

I am in the minority on this I know, but I actually love fielding my whirlwind. It has proven solid against everything from Plague Marines to DE Raiders. I love the fact it is now full strength hits anywhere on the marker. The s4 ap5 ignores cover is great for getting troops cleared off objectives in or near terrain, especially now with how good cover saves can get when you start stacking stealth, shroud, or going to ground. The sniping effect is surprisingly useful against tough units buried

Thunderfire cannon is more useful. Also more small templates are easier to use than a big template.
The big template is a question, if you plan to target a model then you can not be picky where you lay the thing and you will get less wounds.

Night fighting does give it a role to ignore cover but even better to use its search light(it gives an interesting dilemma for the enemy when the whirlwind lights itself up)

Against orks or 'nids you will be accused of list tailoring, against other armies they will not really be the best unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How often do you see griffons? It's cheaper and better, yet hardly ever gets any love (might be due to the lack of model).

TBH the Griffon is one of the most underrated units in the codex, especially in smaller games where you have a hard time filling your heavy slots with the biggest guns. Mine has always worked very well, and I'll probably buy a second one soon. Also, it does have a model, and a very nice one even: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html

This. The last IG army I faced in a tournament had two. For 75 they're an absolute steal. If Whirlwinds were S6 and re-roll scatter every SM army would have them. Right now they're a bit more borderline, but still bring a unique capability.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
How often do you see griffons? It's cheaper and better, yet hardly ever gets any love (might be due to the lack of model).

TBH the Griffon is one of the most underrated units in the codex, especially in smaller games where you have a hard time filling your heavy slots with the biggest guns. Mine has always worked very well, and I'll probably buy a second one soon. Also, it does have a model, and a very nice one even: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html

This. The last IG army I faced in a tournament had two. For 75 they're an absolute steal. If Whirlwinds were S6 and re-roll scatter every SM army would have them. Right now they're a bit more borderline, but still bring a unique capability.

Yep, I planned on spamming Griffons because they are super cheap and can reroll their shots, so really, they are pretty damn accurate. They are an incredibly underrated platform, they really do perform, because of cost and being so accurate

FWIW, the current Dark Angel rumors have the WW getting Flakk. We'll see if they retro-actively upgraded the other SM's similar too TH/SS back in 5th.