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So i dunno about more ork players but i eventually find myself from time to time building choppa & Slugga boyz with just 2 sluggas. Sounds Mundane but in big WYSIWYG matches its handy because you can say "no choppa that is is form of a shoota" I don't normally do this of course I try and use all the models the way they are intended; but i still enjoy making them this way because it not only looks a little cool but also in my imagination it just seems like something orks would do.

But with 6th ed my mind started to think "What if you really could give orks 2 sluggas officially?" Normally you see a debate on which ork is better for what job and the resounding winner at this time is shoota boyz IMO due to the volume of shots and overwatch protection. But lately... I've been wondering if 2 sluggas could make the perfect aggressive ork foot solider. You have the 4 attacks on the charge like a Choppa/slugga boy and the 60 shots of shoota boyz and the only real trade off is 1/3 of your range which is only 6 inches.

It doesn't sound overpowered it just gives you versatility.

What do you guys think?

As an ork player with hundreds of slugga boyz, that would be awesome.

 Ultrafool wrote:
As an ork player with hundreds of slugga boyz, that would be awesome.

Yeah i know right? pistols are CCW for the purpose of 2 close combat weapons and as far as i can tell no race other than a few of the SOB use 2 pistols at this time.

There are a lot of characters and probably a few squads in various armies with options such as "May swap laspistol and or chainsword for..." and then lists a pistol in there somewhere. This means they can have, for example, a laspistol and plasma pistol - allowing you to use the gunslingers rule.

On the main topic, I would love Orks to have the option of two sluggas. I have a number of Boyz modeled that way, and would love to see it as an official option for at least Slugga Boyz.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So i dunno about more ork players but i eventually find myself from time to time building choppa & Slugga boyz with just 2 sluggas. Sounds Mundane but in big WYSIWYG matches its handy because you can say "no choppa that is is form of a shoota" I don't normally do this of course I try and use all the models the way they are intended; but i still enjoy making them this way because it not only looks a little cool but also in my imagination it just seems like something orks would do.

But with 6th ed my mind started to think "What if you really could give orks 2 sluggas officially?" Normally you see a debate on which ork is better for what job and the resounding winner at this time is shoota boyz IMO due to the volume of shots and overwatch protection. But lately... I've been wondering if 2 sluggas could make the perfect aggressive ork foot solider. You have the 4 attacks on the charge like a Choppa/slugga boy and the 60 shots of shoota boyz and the only real trade off is 1/3 of your range which is only 6 inches.

It doesn't sound overpowered it just gives you versatility.

What do you guys think?

Two shots like a shoota and two CCWs? yeah, OP. Especially in a horde army. Granted the 2 shots are at a reduced range but that's only half the balance between the slugga and shoota. The shoota trades the +1A in CC for improved range and 2 shots. The 2Xslugga trades a slight reduction in range for 2 shots and +1A in CC. A single slugga has the advantage of an additional attack in CC for reduced range and a single shot. The bonus attack is weighted against two flaws because it makes a massive difference with on an Ork boy. For example, if the tau were able to swap their rifle for a pistol and CCW they would most likely cost less as a result because they have a ranged oriented stat line.

 Bausk wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So i dunno about more ork players but i eventually find myself from time to time building choppa & Slugga boyz with just 2 sluggas. Sounds Mundane but in big WYSIWYG matches its handy because you can say "no choppa that is is form of a shoota" I don't normally do this of course I try and use all the models the way they are intended; but i still enjoy making them this way because it not only looks a little cool but also in my imagination it just seems like something orks would do.

But with 6th ed my mind started to think "What if you really could give orks 2 sluggas officially?" Normally you see a debate on which ork is better for what job and the resounding winner at this time is shoota boyz IMO due to the volume of shots and overwatch protection. But lately... I've been wondering if 2 sluggas could make the perfect aggressive ork foot solider. You have the 4 attacks on the charge like a Choppa/slugga boy and the 60 shots of shoota boyz and the only real trade off is 1/3 of your range which is only 6 inches.

It doesn't sound overpowered it just gives you versatility.

What do you guys think?

Two shots like a shoota and two CCWs? yeah, OP. Especially in a horde army. Granted the 2 shots are at a reduced range but that's only half the balance between the slugga and shoota. The shoota trades the +1A in CC for improved range and 2 shots. The 2Xslugga trades a slight reduction in range for 2 shots and +1A in CC. A single slugga has the advantage of an additional attack in CC for reduced range and a single shot. The bonus attack is weighted against two flaws because it makes a massive difference with on an Ork boy. For example, if the tau were able to swap their rifle for a pistol and CCW they would most likely cost less as a result because they have a ranged oriented stat line.

See i vehemently disagree with this assumption of facts. Orks are besides our meganobz the weakest armor saves and init in the game our ability to charge was already challenged by anyone with a init of 3 or more and adding overwatch makes for a brutal tradeoff. Most orks don't even assault unless it means extra pain ontop of a shooting round now and days. Giving us a hybrid for even 1 extra point a head isn't over power 12 inches is effectively stupidity unless point blank range to shoot at someone if you still hope to charge them.

18 makes for a decent ranged gun but you have to muscle and fight enemies who are using 24 inch standard weaponry. this means at dangerous range the Ork damage explodes at just the right time not allowing us to have the same deterrent at a shoota boy because the 6 inches matters immensely. the only way the army holds itself together against 2+ re-rollable invulns and armor saves is spam now at this time. And with no multi-charge benefit, no init benefit and every CCW besides basics cut through our nob armor (all save mega armor) it gets ANNOYING to hear someone say it would make us over-powered. We aren't over-powered we are just china and we can buy more guns than you and pray we are lucky rollers.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So i dunno about more ork players but i eventually find myself from time to time building choppa & Slugga boyz with just 2 sluggas. Sounds Mundane but in big WYSIWYG matches its handy because you can say "no choppa that is is form of a shoota" I don't normally do this of course I try and use all the models the way they are intended; but i still enjoy making them this way because it not only looks a little cool but also in my imagination it just seems like something orks would do.

But with 6th ed my mind started to think "What if you really could give orks 2 sluggas officially?" Normally you see a debate on which ork is better for what job and the resounding winner at this time is shoota boyz IMO due to the volume of shots and overwatch protection. But lately... I've been wondering if 2 sluggas could make the perfect aggressive ork foot solider. You have the 4 attacks on the charge like a Choppa/slugga boy and the 60 shots of shoota boyz and the only real trade off is 1/3 of your range which is only 6 inches.

It doesn't sound overpowered it just gives you versatility.

What do you guys think?

Two shots like a shoota and two CCWs? yeah, OP. Especially in a horde army. Granted the 2 shots are at a reduced range but that's only half the balance between the slugga and shoota. The shoota trades the +1A in CC for improved range and 2 shots. The 2Xslugga trades a slight reduction in range for 2 shots and +1A in CC. A single slugga has the advantage of an additional attack in CC for reduced range and a single shot. The bonus attack is weighted against two flaws because it makes a massive difference with on an Ork boy. For example, if the tau were able to swap their rifle for a pistol and CCW they would most likely cost less as a result because they have a ranged oriented stat line.

See i vehemently disagree with this assumption of facts. Orks are besides our meganobz the weakest armor saves and init in the game our ability to charge was already challenged by anyone with a init of 3 or more and adding overwatch makes for a brutal tradeoff. Most orks don't even assault unless it means extra pain ontop of a shooting round now and days. Giving us a hybrid for even 1 extra point a head isn't over power 12 inches is effectively stupidity unless point blank range to shoot at someone if you still hope to charge them.

18 makes for a decent ranged gun but you have to muscle and fight enemies who are using 24 inch standard weaponry. this means at dangerous range the Ork damage explodes at just the right time not allowing us to have the same deterrent at a shoota boy because the 6 inches matters immensely. the only way the army holds itself together against 2+ re-rollable invulns and armor saves is spam now at this time. And with no multi-charge benefit, no init benefit and every CCW besides basics cut through our nob armor (all save mega armor) it gets ANNOYING to hear someone say it would make us over-powered. We aren't over-powered we are just china and we can buy more guns than you and pray we are lucky rollers.

For starters a quick comparison, a guardsman is no better off than an ork boy in many respects (tissue armour, weaker gun, terrible in assault, no access to armour better than 4+ save the tech priest).

Close combat army's were death incarnate in 5th, it was a matter of charge in and kill everything. Got boring right quick. Even now the assault phase is used by both army's in both players turns, that's 2 assault phases you get to swing blows in compared to one shooting phase for the lowly guardsman. Which is still a leg up for assault oriented forces. Add to this an orks default toughness is 4, each boy starts with a base attacks of 2, Furious charge, and a WS of 4.All for one point per model more than a guardsman. Sure your BS is 2, but Orks still seem to hit most of the time. And your Init is 2 which means you go just before Power fists, but hey that high toughness and sheer quantity gives orks more than a fighting chance. Lets not forget those sluggas and shootas are Strength 4. Oh and you count as fearless in mobs of 11 boys more more, fearless got a huuuge buff in 6th.

The difference between one attack per model and an extra shot at 12" or 18" has a big impact on the effectiveness of a model, let alone a mob of them. Then you you don't see the reason having both 2 shots at 12" AND an extra attack is over powered for the unit? Sure, I'd accept it for an appropriate point cost per model upgraded with an extra pistol. Because that's a balance feature that can be used when you are gaining pure advantage.

EDIT : Ah yes, overwatch and charging multiple units. Overwatch was added as a part counter to the imbalance towards assault armys, its not as great as you seem to make it out to be. And there is advantages in charging multiple units at once, they can't shoot your other units when they are engaged in assault, you can spread your plethora of attack across more models thus none are wasted etc. They just added more risk to doing that, you know balance. Risk VS reward. They added tactics back into 40k, rather than a charge fest of who gets into assault first wins.

EDIT: point of interest: Who has a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save?

For starters a quick comparison, a guardsman is no better off than an ork boy in many respects (tissue armour, weaker gun, terrible in assault, no access to armour better than 4+ save the tech priest).

5+ standard armor, better basic init, larger squads, stubborn rule (better than fearless due to going to ground with the amazing aegis defense line) multiple weapon options and disposable characters compared to one. all for nearly identical points heavy weapon squads ect. Nah i love ork boyz but side on side guard are better when you ask me.

Close combat army's were death incarnate in 5th, it was a matter of charge in and kill everything. Got boring right quick. Even now the assault phase is used by both army's in both players turns, that's 2 assault phases you get to swing blows in compared to one shooting phase for the lowly guardsman. Which is still a leg up for assault oriented forces. Add to this an orks default toughness is 4, each boy starts with a base attacks of 2, Furious charge, and a WS of 4.All for one point per model more than a guardsman. Sure your BS is 2, but Orks still seem to hit most of the time. And your Init is 2 which means you go just before Power fists, but hey that high toughness and sheer quantity gives orks more than a fighting chance. Lets not forget those sluggas and shootas are Strength 4. Oh and you count as fearless in mobs of 11 boys more more, fearless got a huuuge buff in 6th.

agreed these are the stated advantages of orks at this time... yet we use to be init 3 with furious charge making us go the same as guard and tau and have overwhelming numbers, it ultimately doesn't change must because the vast majority of orks were always last on init due to never taking grenades anyway but now facing things like wraith lords and dreadnoughts proves fatal for nob squads and the like. Yet again our CC is nerfed while others remain unchanged.

The difference between one attack per model and an extra shot at 12" or 18" has a big impact on the effectiveness of a model, let alone a mob of them. Then you you don't see the reason having both 2 shots at 12" AND an extra attack is over powered for the unit? Sure, I'd accept it for an appropriate point cost per model upgraded with an extra pistol. Because that's a balance feature that can be used when you are gaining pure advantage.

Not huge imo, with the shoota you could get 2 rounds of shooting and an assualt with 3 attacks, with slugga you will probably will only get 1 round of shooting with 4 attacks in CC and even then your 12 inch range will probably leave a large majority of the shots out of range since most these orks would be desperate to close the gap at 12 inch range since it's better to charge as orks than be charged... so they are faced with "shoot and deprive your charge more than likely unless nearly point blank range or just run in with 4 attacks and probably wipe the unit. to me, it's still barely any shooting at all unless you were lucky enough to already to be right next to the enemy which is more THERE fault than yours.

if you compare to IG think of how often you actually get to rapid fire as any army right now ... normally 1 round right? then the unit is either dealt with or they charged you.

EDIT : Ah yes, overwatch and charging multiple units. Overwatch was added as a part counter to the imbalance towards assault armys, its not as great as you seem to make it out to be. And there is advantages in charging multiple units at once, they can't shoot your other units when they are engaged in assault, you can spread your plethora of attack across more models thus none are wasted etc. They just added more risk to doing that, you know balance. Risk VS reward. They added tactics back into 40k, rather than a charge fest of who gets into assault first wins.

I actually don't think it's great at all, i never said so either it just is an added pain to orky assualts is all. it has rarely ever made the difference to me assualting or not and i think it's a perfectly fine rule to have, you must assume I am like the vast majority of other orks out there, i sadly am not i never made sense to me to not have guardsment shooting till the bitter end. Assualts are still make or break and beleive it or not I play orks incredibly tactical thus my interest in double slugga boyz in the first place because it allows a close combat unit to be good at charging and being charged without it being shoota boyz which is a compromise. Ultimately no ork commander charges at this time due to our stat lines and that is fine by me I charge in when i know I will win like any prudent leader now. I even multi-assualt when it pays off I've killed 4 units simultaneously with a nobz squad and know when to do it and not. Ultimately it isn't the fact assualts have been discouraged through overwatch its that the only way to confidently multi-assualt with troops now is choppa slugga boyz who do not have the firepower to widdle down enemies before we charge 1 or 2 squads.

to sum it up, poor saves, poor init, and no options to accelerate our assualt process but to do 1 unit at a time really hurt all options so we need something of a hybrid like dual sluggas which can give us the firepower to widdle down badass squads like paladins while also having the attacks we use to if we need to multi-assualt. It's not something I expect we will receive more than likely boyz are going to get a major overhaul for CC weaponry in our squads so we can actually be dangerous as an assualt army once again.

EDIT: point of interest: Who has a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save? Happens through allies mostly but lets see i'll make a death star assualty one.

HQ: Farseer (1#, 130 pts)
1 Farseer, 130 pts ( Doom ; Fortune ; Spirit Stones)

HQ: Archon (1#, 190 pts)
1 Archon, 190 pts (Plasma Grenades; Huskblade; Blast Pistol; Haywire Grenades; Ghostplate Armour; Combat Drugs; Phantasm Grenade Launcher; Shadow Field)

Elite: Striking Scorpions (10#, 202 pts)
9 Striking Scorpions, 202 pts
1 Striking Scorpion Exarch ( Shadowstrike ; Stalker ; Biting Blade)

522 pts you have made a unit that i would consider almost unkillable their only real weakness is morale, which you can fix by taking Karandus the pheniox lord, gain eternal warrior and fearless + extra attacks and a power klaw incase your blast pistol didn't do the job... i've seen horribly cheap tactics abused by allies and it's annoying to be told 2 CCW pistols... is op just makes me gnash my teeth.

5+ is just as useless against the majority of guns that orks face, the difference is boyz have 4 toughness making it much harder to wound them. Better init is not as good as better WS AND more attacks in close combat, not forgetting the fore mentioned toughness. Two units in the guard forces are capable, not as a rule always, of being larger than a unit of boyz (let alone the majority of the ork codex); Infantry squads blobed and conscripts, the 5pts per model unit and its 4pt per model poorer cousin. Hardly an overwhelming force.

Everyone took the same hit to CC that you did, well everyone with FC. Guards only viable close combat unit, ogryn, use to get 3 init on the charge too. As did zerkas get the +1 and anyone else that has FC. *shrug* You don't think a unit of model that cost 6 points each shouldn't be beaten in close combat against a 100 point vehicle? Its like me saying a IG infantry should be able to blast the same dread to bits with ease. Right weapons for the right job, I don't see the issue, just don't charge a dread. hit it with something that will do the job not your basic troop choice.

It is huge when its your strength, it is huge when that simple +1A translates to (potentially) +30A on top of 90 attacks at WS4 S4 on the charge with a follow up of +30A on top of 60 at WS4 S3 for each round after. And you want that on top of an extra shot at 12" for free? No thank you. Pay a points cost and I'm fine with it, get it for free and its a deal breaker.

How often do guard get to rapid fire? As in fire twice? Same as always, when they have a target unit with in 12". Which would be the range you get to shoot twice if you had your way...ontop of the for mentioned fethton of attacks. Guard are just able to fire once at 24" on the move now, woohoo! Lets presume its a unit of equal points cost to the above 30 Boyz Its good and all but pales in comparison to your proposed suggestion.

Those points aside both army's have strengths and weaknesses, my fav battles with my guard are always against orks. So we somehow have 36 Infantrymen, this translates to 36 shots at BS3 S3 at 24-13", so two rounds of shooting. Now at this point any unit can charge it on the second or third round, but lets say the opponent doesn't want to risk it and goes on one more round. 72 at 12-2" which equates to one, possibly two, more round/s of shooting at most before being charged. lets assume its the former. Thats 144 shots at BS3 S3, hitting boyz 16.6% less than the boyz and wounding them around 25% less than the boyz while only making 16.6% more saves due to the 5+.

Lets break them down; IG:36 Orks:30
72 shots with impunity, half miss so 36 shots land. at 5+ to wound only 12 (11.88) wounds are scored. The orks make their 6+ save and 10 die. Twenty remain to fire back when they move into 12" range, 20shots at BS2 so 7 hit (6.66). at 3+ to wound the orks land 5 (4.662) wounds. At a 5+ save 3 guard die. At this point the orks could attempt a charge but lets continue for one more round shall we. IG:33 Orks:20

The guard lay down rapid fire on the advancing orks firing a total of 66 shots, 33 hits, 11 wounds, killing 9 orks after they make 2 saves. The orks retaliate with 11 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds and one guardsman death. IG: 32 Orks:11

Now it looks like the guard has the edge but this is where that huge difference of one attack comes in.

The orks charge, the guardsmen and the over watch 72 shots at 6+ for a total of 12 (10.62) hits, at 5+ to wound they score 4 (3.66) wounds that the orks save one (0.66) of and 3 orks die. The guard strike first with 32 attacks at 4+ to hit, 16 hit. At 5+ to wound 5 (5.32) wounds are inflicted.and the orks make one (0.83) save and 4 orks die before they can strike back. The remaining 4 orks have 16 attacks for 2 base, one extra CCW and 1 for charging. At 3+ 11 (10.65) land hits. of those 11 at 3+ to wound 7 (7.33) inflict wounds. The guardsmen make 2 (2.33) saves and 5 guardsmen die. The guardsmen lost combat by 1 wounds so have to roll under 6 to stay in combat, which on an average 2D6 dice roll they would fail. The orks make a sweeping advance and that 1 init, that they never had in this part, makes little difference. Its near 50% the orks wipe the guard out instantly or the guard runs an average of 7" and the orks can easily catch them in their next turn. IG:27 Orks: 4

What if the guard don't run?

Then they attack with 27 attacks, 14 (13.5) attacks land, 5 (4.66) wounds inflicted, and one (0.83) save is made killing the remaining 4 orks.

All this is presuming that the unit is within range and all models are engaged in assault. Which, as you know, with a larger squad can be difficult.

Half the time, the orks win, the other half the guard win. Admittedly there is a disparity in how many points the guard win by (111 points difference) but consider the sheer wieght of fire the orks took and did not falter compared to one round of combat potentially breaking the guard. And you want to add 3 unsaved wounds that would make that first round of combat near unsurvivalbe for free? No, just no.

Again for like 1 point or 2 points per model sure, no probs. Heck man I don't like fighting GKs because their default Wargear isn't point appropriate.

I don't presume you are like any ork player, you mentioned overwatch as a brutal. I infer from that you saw it as important mitigating factor. That is all. From what you say your play like a Blood Angel, they suck at close combat by comparison. But its good that you don't charge in like a dunce that might as well play units that have rage.

Guard have terrible saves and no 2+ available to them, they have one single model unit that has a 3+ and if we kit out force out with 4+ it costs us potential numbers in addition to points. The size of an ork force is only limited by the points by comparison. The additional init makes very little difference over all and a minor advantage in CC. Seeing as the guard don't have the skill, attacks, strength or toughness for CC that init is wasted in CC.

I do agree the orks and other CC oriented units (Berzerkers for instance) lack the wargear options they need to be truly lethal in CC. And again I'm not opposed to the idea, just getting it for nothing.

Point of interest:

Wow, elaborate set up for a rerollable 2++. To be fair that's one rerollabe 2++ and I can safely say I've never seen a list with that set up in it every before today. I'm sure if you throw enough shots/hits at it it would die, 2+ kinda falls down under weight of fire/attacks.