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so I have a dilemma. Now that standard power weapons have different rules depending on what they are what do you do if your power weapon is a non-standard looking weapon?

My example is in regards to my Dark Eldar Archon. I gave him a set of the weighted flails like what the wyches can use and converted wires and a little power unit on his wrist to turn it into a power weapon. Since it doesnt conform to any of the normal types and has no special rules like the "unusual" ones what would I count it as?

OR will I end up having to tear that arm off and find a different power weapon for him?

Declare what it is, and just make sure you're consistent about it. In a tournament the choice of weapon needs to be clearly written on your army list (and before you start playing any games), and in non-tournament games you should pick one and stick with it. As long as it doesn't magically change weapon types depending on who you're playing against you should be fine.

In general, if its a bladed instrument its a Sword.

If its a blunt instrument its a maul.

If its a weighted cutting impliment or has a long reach its a Axe/Halberd.

If its long and pokey its a lance.


If its way too unusual to fit into any of the above, its simply AP3.

The no-hassle way is to just treat it as unusual.

If you really wanted it to be a mace, though, I think a flail would probably be close enough. I don't think you could pull off anything else, though.

hmmmm well if I should basically pick something and stick with it what is the consensus of two bladed discs each attached to its own chain and hooked on the guys wrist?

BossGrizznit wrote:
hmmmm well if I should basically pick something and stick with it what is the consensus of two bladed discs each attached to its own chain and hooked on the guys wrist?

As I said, it doesn't matter as long as you're clear and consistent with it. Bladed discs on a chain doesn't look like a maul/axe/sword/lance so call it whatever you want to. Just pick one and don't change your mind every time you find yourself in a situation where it would be better for it to be something else.

BossGrizznit wrote:
hmmmm well if I should basically pick something and stick with it what is the consensus of two bladed discs each attached to its own chain and hooked on the guys wrist?

Unusual, definitely.

The pick and stick is mostly fine, but it does have to at least vaguely resemble what you're looking for. You can't just have something that clearly looks like a sword and call it an axe (no matter how often you call it that) without it being a proxy. Proxying is fine (usually), of course, but don't fool yourself.

In the case of a blade on a chain, it's clearly not a sword, axe, mace or spear. It's got to go as unusual.


'

 Ailaros wrote:
In the case of a blade on a chain, it's clearly not a sword, axe, mace or spear. It's got to go as unusual.

Except the rules for unusual power weapons clearly refer to the weapon having non-standard rules and say nothing about the model. RAW you must pick one of the four basic types.

And no, it's not a proxy. A proxy is using a model that has rules as something else, or using something that isn't a model at all. Using a model with a scratchbuilt weapon is a counts-as model.

If a weapon can't be determined as one of the four types, then it's not a power weapon, as it doesn't follow the rules for them. In this case, it's like an ork model holding onto a tube that could easily be one of many possible weapons. If it's not modeled as THE weapon, it's no different than if it's modeled as a different weapon. Calling a chain with a hook on the end a power axe is just as proxying as calling a meltagun a plasma gun. In both cases, the model doesn't follow the rules for what it represents.

If power weapons had no modelling requirements written into its rules, then it would be no big deal, but as it is, they are.

 Ailaros wrote:
If a weapon can't be determined as one of the four types, then it's not a power weapon, as it doesn't follow the rules for them. In this case, it's like an ork model holding onto a tube that could easily be one of many possible weapons. If it's not modeled as THE weapon, it's no different than if it's modeled as a different weapon. Calling a chain with a hook on the end a power axe is just as proxying as calling a meltagun a plasma gun. In both cases, the model doesn't follow the rules for what it represents.

If power weapons had no modelling requirements written into its rules, then it would be no big deal, but as it is, they are.

Please go re-read the rules for unusual power weapons*. It says that the RULES for the power weapon must be different (for example, a power weapon that adds +1 attack is an unusual power weapon), it says absolutely nothing about allowing you to choose to take an unusual power weapon. If the rules in your codex only say "power weapon", you have exactly two choices:

1) Clearly model it as one of the four basic types, in which case it uses the appropriate rules.

or

2) Create a counts-as model that uses the rules of one of the four basic types.

Absolutely nothing in the rules allows you to use modeling to create an unusual power weapon.



*Here, I'll even get them for you:

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Note that it says nothing about "if you modeled it with something weird", which is a counts-as or illegal (depending on your position on that) model, not a weapon with unique rules.

Since Unusual power weapons are AP3, and power swords are AP3, I think you'd be pretty safe to just call it an AP 3 power weapon with no additional rules.

-Matt

For one off games above is fine

If you going tournament though i would suggest remodelling the other weapon.

At the final 5th ed tourney we discussed this and some players were firm, if it looked like something, thats what it was. To avoid competitive types causing delay and frustration i would proactively remodel so its clearly WYSIWG

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
For one off games above is fine

If you going tournament though i would suggest remodelling the other weapon.

At the final 5th ed tourney we discussed this and some players were firm, if it looked like something, thats what it was. To avoid competitive types causing delay and frustration i would proactively remodel so its clearly WYSIWG

In my opinion, poor advice. Don't remodel your weapon. As long as it's clearly written in your army list how to play it - Probably just a "Counts as" Power sword, generic ap3 as listed above, as it replaces generic power weapons from before. No one would have a problem with this. Cool, unique models at a tournament equals win.

Peregrine wrote:Absolutely nothing in the rules allows you to use modeling to create an unusual power weapon.

That's true.

You entirely missed my point.

If a weapon doesn't look like any of the 4 weapons listed, then, by the rules, it doesn't get to use any of those rules for power weapons. You have to look at the model, and if the model isn't armed with something that looks like an axe, you can't use it as an axe. If it doesn't look like any of the 4 categories, then you can't use the rules from any of the 4 categories.

As such, a power whip, or a power bag of caltrops, or a power whatever weird thing you come up with literally does not have rules for how to play with it.

If you're using a weapon that doesn't have rules, and using it to represent a weapon that has a certain set of rules, that is scarcely different than using a weapon that has one set of rules and using it to represent a different weapon that has a certain set of rules.

So, if you have a model that has a weapon upgrade for which there are no rules, and you want it to have special attributes, then you need to break the rules. If you're going to break the rules, the way in which it makes most sense is to use the rules for the weapon type that exists to handle things which are unclear. Calling a whip an axe or a spear doesn't make any more sense than calling a weapon which does not have a type unusual, since you're breaking the rules anyways.

 Ailaros wrote:
As such, a power whip, or a power bag of caltrops, or a power whatever weird thing you come up with literally does not have rules for how to play with it.

Which is a textbook case of counts-as. It has no rules at all, so you assign it whatever rules you want it to count as. Since it is none of the four basic types there is no reason to prefer one of them over the others, and it should be left up to the player to declare what it is (as long as all power flails have the same type).

You can't just have something that clearly looks like a sword and call it an axe (no matter how often you call it that) without it being a proxy. Proxying is fine (usually), of course, but don't fool yourself.

In the case of a blade on a chain, it's clearly not a sword, axe, mace or spear. It's got to go as unusual.

I understand what you mean and I agree 100%, but in the same time, Grimnars Axe of morkai is called an axe and looks very much like an axe but is a sword.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
As such, a power whip, or a power bag of caltrops, or a power whatever weird thing you come up with literally does not have rules for how to play with it.

Which is a textbook case of counts-as. It has no rules at all, so you assign it whatever rules you want it to count as. Since it is none of the four basic types there is no reason to prefer one of them over the others, and it should be left up to the player to declare what it is (as long as all power flails have the same type).

I might try to modell one of my space vikings with a power-bag-of-potatoes (counts as a maul) pure epic

thanks for all the advice and discussion. I will most likely end up just counting it as a power sword(or unusual power weapon since visually it is unusual)

thats not going to help me in fights against the tough guys but eh it looks really cool so I'm going with it. heck I might even drill holes into it and make it a huskblade. more Dark Eldary that way.

The counts-as rule for whichever basic power weapon you want is fine, just be consistent and make sure it makes sense. (To me, your weapon sounds like a kind of flail). Do it in the spirit of the game, and people will agree and like it.