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My buddy got the dark angels half of Dark Vengeance and keeps getting bummed out cause every time we play i beat him. But i was wondering if the dakka community might be able to help me build a dark angels list for sixth thats not death wing spam or raven wing spam. he would like something competitive but not a WAAC list.

For his Dark Angels he has the Dark Vengeance Half plus the new special chaplain that came with it. plus a tac squad and a rhino.

any thoughts tips suggustions would be great as i would like to help him win a game or two when he plays.

thanks dakka

 alabamaheretic wrote:
My buddy got the dark angels half of Dark Vengeance and keeps getting bummed out cause every time we play i beat him. But i was wondering if the dakka community might be able to help me build a dark angels list for sixth thats not death wing spam or raven wing spam. he would like something competitive but not a WAAC list.

For his Dark Angels he has the Dark Vengeance Half plus the new special chaplain that came with it. plus a tac squad and a rhino.

any thoughts tips suggustions would be great as i would like to help him win a game or two when he plays.

thanks dakka

I am not entirely sure what to say. Deathwing armies are a hell of a lot of fun to play, and if you don't play them properly, you'll get crushed. Ravenwing armies are even worse in this regard.

I think you have some preconceptions about armies which rely on multiples of a single type unit (i.e. lots of terminators or lots of bikes). They are not always WAAC armies.

Maybe Dark Angels just aren't for him, and he'd be happier with Vanilla Marines. Or, maybe you are putting too much beatstick into your games against him.

2 tactical squads, a rhino, a unit of Ravenwing and a unit of Deathwing, with a chapter master and a interrogator-chaplain is a solid list.

Maybe he should change his tactics.

David Jackson

well i do put the hurt on him cause i play a lot of WAAC players. I will let him know that it is a decent starting army. and let me rephrase he doesn't want to be cheesy is what i ment to say about the death wing and raven wing lists. the preconceptions is my personal view on them as i usually get my ass handed to me by beleal and company. But ill let him know what i have discovered thanks Mr. Jackson

 alabamaheretic wrote:
well i do put the hurt on him cause i play a lot of WAAC players. I will let him know that it is a decent starting army. and let me rephrase he doesn't want to be cheesy is what i ment to say about the death wing and raven wing lists. the preconceptions is my personal view on them as i usually get my ass handed to me by beleal and company. But ill let him know what i have discovered thanks Mr. Jackson

I play a Deathwing army as well (with a sprinkling of Ravenwing), and it either does really well or really badly.

Go easy on the guy, next time. We need all the 40K players we can get.

David Jackson

The Dark Angels with the exception of Deathwing and a few units are at a disadvantage.

1. You pay a premium maybe 5 or 10%. Not much but if you play 1850, that is basically meaning you are playing minus 1 tactical squad.

2. Ravenwing is even worse... 90 for vanilla 3 bikes. 120 for Ravenwing.. For that you get 2 advantages fearless and scout move. Both not big when you are at such a numbers disadvantage. And to add insult you have to field Sammiel to make them troops... About the worst character IMHO. Either he is singular on a bike and subject to instant death or he is a super speeder. That means you are paying near landraider cost for now where near landraider effectiveness.

3. Nothing for Combat Tactics... A vanilla has combat tactics or the option to switch it out with a special character. Same cost and SW have Counterattack. (Still a sore point with me. The most powerful ability and SW get it for nothing and then get free special weapons and dirt cheap long fangs.) About the only optioin DA have is to embrace fearless by taking an Interrogator Chaplain plus a command squad with Blessed Standard. Not good when you have to dedicate 200+ points to something other marines just have.

The few tactical benifits you have is that 5-man squads can take a special weapon. Again not big unless you totally commit to it and that means razorspam.

Typhoon Landspeeders- 75 for what everyone else pays 90.

So without deathwing, you are left with razorspam + typhoons.

Now hopefully in a month or two they will be getting a new codex, at that time I expect all the problems to be resolved. May not be a power codex but at least it will be competitive.

5 man units with laserbacks are really solid choices. Not the best choice in 40k as whole but good enough.
Back it up with some cheap vindicators or preds and cheap typhoons.
What really works well with this is deathwing as they can give cover saves to the mech. Also Belial is a really awesome HQ to go with this as he is dirt cheap.
It is definitely possible to win with razorback spam.

If you want a different choice until the codex drops then probably look at IG allies. Azrael+librarian makes an awesome power blob of infantry.

I play Dark Angels in an entirely atypical manner: I field a pair of small Ravenwing squads and a pair of small Deathwing squads with a large contingent of Tactical Marines and Devastators in support. I run the Ravenwing forward immediately, using their speed to tie the enemy up and trusting to the jink save to keep them alive long enough for Deathwing Assault to bring the Deathwing in to help, thus keeping the enemy a long ways away from my Tactical and Devastator squads who shred the enemy with massed heavy weapon fire. It's not the most competitive way of playing the game, but it works pretty well on a more casual field; it's fun, versatile, and responds well to being reorganized/rearranged if I decide other units in my arsenal aren't getting enough attention.

DAaddict wrote:

About the worst character IMHO. Either he is singular on a bike and subject to instant death or he is a super speeder. That means you are paying near landraider cost for now where near landraider effectiveness.

This is a little harsh isnt it?

First of all Sammael allows us to take bikes as troops, on his jet bike he is Toughness 5, 3 Wounds, has a Plasma Cannon on a jet bike and due to his Adamantine Mantle is immune to instant death! I agree he isn't perfect, for some reason he isn't an independent character so you cant join him onto a squad and he is over priced but what in our codex isnt?

Where as in his speeder he has AV14 front and sides, 4 hull points, TL AC and HB which does provide a lot of firepower especially at BS5 with twin linked!

Sammael has two hull points which makes the landspeeder option a bit iffy. I do agree the jet bike is always dismissed unfairly when it is perfectly serviceable unit.

This all takes into account that Sammael's points include the bikers as troops.
It is the quality of ravenwing that should be discussed rather than the one model. Ravenwing are able to win, they have enough scoring units if not actual models and more than capable of killing things.
Like all biker armies they are unforgiving and just generally hard to play but more so.