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Hello dakkadakka,
This past weekend at my FLGS during a 1000 point game my lead ork shootaz boyz mob took 3 Frag Missile hits in a row. The SM player targeted the middle of my mob (which wasn't spread out at all) 3 times and rolled a Hit on the scatter 3 times. So he hit the same 9 models 3 times, landing 27 hits. We rolled all of those wounds at once, and my KFF only saved 15, so I lost 12 of my 25 boyz ( pulled from the front following rules put forth on page 33 of BRB). Now what bothers me is that the blast templates only hit 9 models, not 12. I can maybe see some "realistic" reasons why I lost 12 boyz (shrapnel, explosion, flying teef), but I feel as if the rules are a little unrealistic. So my question is should we have done each missile individually, rolling hits then wounds then saves for each shot? It just seems silly that multiple blast template hits on the same few models increases the number of hits allocated.

The rules are far from realistic. They're set 38k years in the future for one

First of all, don't be complaining your 5+ KFF saved over half the wounds.
Second, would you feel the same if a squad of marines, who were only in range of one of your guys, scored more than 1 wound total? Basically the same thing. If this would bother you, then perhaps 40k is not for you.

psyklone wrote:

Second, would you feel the same if a squad of marines, who were only in range of one of your guys, scored more than 1 wound total? Basically the same thing. If this would bother you, then perhaps 40k is not for you.

You're not very clear as to what's going on there. Are the Marines all in firing range of my 1 ork of a mob? If the marines can only hit 1 ork in firing range, then only that one ork can take hits/wounds. You wouldn't allocate wounds to the units behind him because they're only shooting at 1 ork.

Not the nicest way to attempt to answer a simple question (which you didn't).

To answer your question, pg 33 Multiple Blasts. Although it would not really change the results much.

Yes, and on page 33 for the Multiple blasts section it says to resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above. "Above" describes how to resolve one Blast shot. So what I'm asking is should we have done each shot separately by selecting target, rolling scatter, counting hits, then roll to wound, then saves? Is this how you play? Or how you would play at a tournament?

I think i see what is confusing you.

You roll to hit/scatter. Count up the number of hits. Repeat with next blast. Total the number of hits.

After you have determined all your hits(both blast and other shooting), you roll to wound as normal, resolve saves etc...

And yes, this does make them very nasty against a large unit which has a clump of models somewhere in it, if they can manage to roll multiple HIT dead-on results.

In old editions of the game (3rd, and 4th IIRC) you had to resolve blast markers one at a time, and casualty removal would come from under the blast and make placing the later ones to get a good number of hits difficult. They tweaked the rules to make them quicker to resolve and more powerful (albeit at the cost of losing the sniping ability they functionally had in 3rd).

The rules for Warhammer 40K is a compromise between Realism, Ease of Play and Game Balance.

Sometimes a rule doesn't "make sense" from a certain point of view, be it realism, balance or a clunky game mechanic. Just realise that one of the other "factors" might have been chosen to override the other two in this particular case.

Best advice will be to live with it and move on. It will make your gaming experience a lot more enjoyable.

It is kinda like the old problem-solving adage; "You can have it Quickly, Complex or Correct....Choose any two and live with the consequences."


...

Wingeds wrote:
Hello dakkadakka,
This past weekend at my FLGS during a 1000 point game my lead ork shootaz boyz mob took 3 Frag Missile hits in a row. The SM player targeted the middle of my mob (which wasn't spread out at all) 3 times and rolled a Hit on the scatter 3 times. So he hit the same 9 models 3 times, landing 27 hits. We rolled all of those wounds at once, and my KFF only saved 15, so I lost 12 of my 25 boyz ( pulled from the front following rules put forth on page 33 of BRB). Now what bothers me is that the blast templates only hit 9 models, not 12. I can maybe see some "realistic" reasons why I lost 12 boyz (shrapnel, explosion, flying teef), but I feel as if the rules are a little unrealistic. So my question is should we have done each missile individually, rolling hits then wounds then saves for each shot? It just seems silly that multiple blast template hits on the same few models increases the number of hits allocated.

You always roll all the hits, then all the wounds, then all the saves, then start pulling guys off.
40K uses a lot of abstractions, and blasts is one of the big ones.

Sounds like it got played correctly.
If a 3" marker touched 9 orks, you really need to spread out more.

-Matt

Wingeds wrote:
Hello dakkadakka,
This past weekend at my FLGS during a 1000 point game my lead ork shootaz boyz mob took 3 Frag Missile hits in a row. The SM player targeted the middle of my mob (which wasn't spread out at all) 3 times and rolled a Hit on the scatter 3 times. So he hit the same 9 models 3 times, landing 27 hits. We rolled all of those wounds at once, and my KFF only saved 15, so I lost 12 of my 25 boyz ( pulled from the front following rules put forth on page 33 of BRB). Now what bothers me is that the blast templates only hit 9 models, not 12. I can maybe see some "realistic" reasons why I lost 12 boyz (shrapnel, explosion, flying teef), but I feel as if the rules are a little unrealistic. So my question is should we have done each missile individually, rolling hits then wounds then saves for each shot? It just seems silly that multiple blast template hits on the same few models increases the number of hits allocated.

It does not matter where he placed it, the actual cinematic effect would be 3 missiles the center of the mob (enough to cover the whole mob in shrapnel) in 3 key places to explode with maximum effect. But the SM missiles instead hit the leading edge of the KFF and those boys trapped outside of the fickle piece of ork technology were torn apart by the blast while those inside were saved.

There are some very odd and implausible things about Blasts in 40k if you take them literally. Me, I reconcile it by understanding that Blasts are simply game mechanic to work out the number of hits from "area effect" weapons against targets that can be tightly or loosely bunched - it's pretty elegant really.

Then you cinematize it, like Bausk said.

Wingeds wrote:

psyklone wrote:

Second, would you feel the same if a squad of marines, who were only in range of one of your guys, scored more than 1 wound total? Basically the same thing. If this would bother you, then perhaps 40k is not for you.

You're not very clear as to what's going on there. Are the Marines all in firing range of my 1 ork of a mob? If the marines can only hit 1 ork in firing range, then only that one ork can take hits/wounds. You wouldn't allocate wounds to the units behind him because they're only shooting at 1 ork.

Not the nicest way to attempt to answer a simple question (which you didn't).

I think you need to read the rules regarding allocating wounds again (p.15-16), as long as 1 model was in range at the time of shooting, all the models in the unit can be hit (assuming they're in LOS).

Out of range (page 16) says that only models which are in range at the time To Hit rolls are made can be removed as casualties. Now, technically this does mean that if a unit of Orks has 29 guys 26-30" away from your marines, and one model 23-24" from the guys in your Tac squad, and you fire 9 bolters, you can only kill one Ork. But if you fire 9 bolters and a missile launcher, you can kill as many orks as you roll hits & wounds, because those other orks are in range of at least one model. But if it was a unit of Grey Knights with a Psycannon (24" range) instead of a Missile Launcher, they'd only be able to kill that one Ork.

This is a big change from 5th, getting back to the rules from 3rd and 4th, when you could "range-snipe" to force the specific models in range to be the ones removed. 6th allows/forces this again, as it also does with LOS-sniping. You can set up LOS by blocking with terrain or other units to force specific models to be the ones killed. Thankfully in this edition characters can use Look Out Sir for some protection from this tactic.

Wingeds wrote:The SM player targeted the middle of my mob (which wasn't spread out at all) 3 times and rolled a Hit on the scatter 3 times. So he hit the same 9 models 3 times, landing 27 hits. We rolled all of those wounds at once, and my KFF only saved 15, so I lost 12 of my 25 boyz ( pulled from the front following rules put forth on page 33 of BRB). Now what bothers me is that the blast templates only hit 9 models, not 12. I can maybe see some "realistic" reasons why I lost 12 boyz (shrapnel, explosion, flying teef), but I feel as if the rules are a little unrealistic.

Getting back to this situation, remember that it's not just blast weapons which can do things like this. For example, if a unit of three Landspeeders with three Heavy Bolters and three Assault Cannons shoots at a unit of 9 Ork Boys, they can potentially score as many as 21 hits and 21 wounds on those 9 Boys. There can be more hits and/or wounds on a unit than there are models in the unit. It just makes it tougher for the unit to Save them and survive.

9 Orks under a small blast marker is impressive.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Out of range (page 16) says that only models which are in range at the time To Hit rolls are made can be removed as casualties. Now, technically this does mean that if a unit of Orks has 29 guys 26-30" away from your marines, and one model 23-24" from the guys in your Tac squad, and you fire 9 bolters, you can only kill one Ork. But if you fire 9 bolters and a missile launcher, you can kill as many orks as you roll hits & wounds, because those other orks are in range of at least one model. But if it was a unit of Grey Knights with a Psycannon (24" range) instead of a Missile Launcher, they'd only be able to kill that one Ork.

I disagree very much with your interpretation of what is being said there I'm afraid, that isn't what "Out of Range" says at all.

The "model" referenced on p.16 is the firing model, not the target. So as long as your model was in range of at least one enemy in the target unit when rolls were made, your opponent keeps removing casualties until the wound pool is empty, even if those casualties are out of range. Reading it the other way makes no sense since (outside of "Gets Hot" or some serious blast scatter) you don't remove models from the shooting unit as casualties in the shooting phase.

"Out of sight" tells you the only circumstance, other than running out of enemy models in the target unit, where you lose wounds from the wound pool.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Out of range (page 16) says that only models which are in range at the time To Hit rolls are made can be removed as casualties. Now, technically this does mean that if a unit of Orks has 29 guys 26-30" away from your marines, and one model 23-24" from the guys in your Tac squad, and you fire 9 bolters, you can only kill one Ork. But if you fire 9 bolters and a missile launcher, you can kill as many orks as you roll hits & wounds, because those other orks are in range of at least one model. But if it was a unit of Grey Knights with a Psycannon (24" range) instead of a Missile Launcher, they'd only be able to kill that one Ork.

Not true at all.
All the bolters measure range to the closest model.
All bolters are in range.
The target unit is considered to be in range throughout the shooting attack, not just the individual model.

You know what? I think I agree with you guys that I was reading it backward. Thanks!

So they brought back LOS sniping, but not range sniping, and they mitigated LOS sniping on characters via Look Out Sir.

Not bad.

Mannahnin has it right with out of range.

"As long as a model was in range of the enemny when to hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range. "

As long as one model was in range, at the beginning of the shooting phase, they can keep allocating wounds.



As to the blasts. If you want more realism in that situation, the KFF should only effect the models within 6", not the entire unit.

So if against a horde army, blast weapons which are the most efficient against large numbers of lightly armored foes have to be true aimed each time. Crazy force fields should have a true limit to their range, instead of funky conga lines.

Seaphoenix, I had it backwards before, out of confusion over which model was meant by "he". The sentence makes much more sense read with it referring to the firing model, rather than a given model in the unit being targeted.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Seaphoenix, I had it backwards before, out of confusion over which model was meant by "he". The sentence makes much more sense read with it referring to the firing model, rather than a given model in the unit being targeted.

As above. it doesnt help that the subject changes between OoSight and OoRange, so you can easily, when reading the rules quickly, think that only models in range can be hurt. It actually says the opposite

No one has mention that you can only lose models that the shooting group can see. Until just now.

The worse part is actually focus fire. The enemy declares focus fire. You can have camped loads of orks into terrain, but then the enemy can either centre the blast on a model just out of terrain but close to the huddle or scatter on to the huddle but then still count them as hits. These hits only taking models without cover saves(or lower cover saves).

You can place the blast marker fully on model in terrain if you focus fire, the opponent can only allocate to models with a cover save equal to or worse than the stated value.

So placing a Blast marker over huddled up Orks in terrain to get as many hits as possible and declaring focus fire is a viable tactic if there are a bunch of scattered Orks outside of terrain in the same unit.

Youve also got to think, wile the models on the table are standing still the soldiers on the battlefield are going to be in constant motion. As you blow holes in an orc battle line, more orks will undoubtedly rage in to fill the gaps. Its kinda what they do after all.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can place the blast marker fully on model in terrain if you focus fire, the opponent can only allocate to models with a cover save equal to or worse than the stated value.

So placing a Blast marker over huddled up Orks in terrain to get as many hits as possible and declaring focus fire is a viable tactic if there are a bunch of scattered Orks outside of terrain in the same unit.

The blast has to be placed over those who are able to be hit by the Focused Fire. It can scatter as normal and generate hits, but it must start over a model that could have the wounds applied to it.

Right I was thinking Templates.

Templates ignore that, not blast markers.

Wingeds wrote:
Yes, and on page 33 for the Multiple blasts section it says to resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above. "Above" describes how to resolve one Blast shot. So what I'm asking is should we have done each shot separately by selecting target, rolling scatter, counting hits, then roll to wound, then saves? Is this how you play? Or how you would play at a tournament?

I can see why that would be frustrating to lose more models than have been physically 'hit' on the table. You can absolutely request your opponent resolve each rocket separately, any good sport would accept this as a fine procedure. Heck, it's even on page 33. Be prepared to give them the same benefit of the doubt, though.

 zgort wrote:

Wingeds wrote:
Yes, and on page 33 for the Multiple blasts section it says to resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above. "Above" describes how to resolve one Blast shot. So what I'm asking is should we have done each shot separately by selecting target, rolling scatter, counting hits, then roll to wound, then saves? Is this how you play? Or how you would play at a tournament?

I can see why that would be frustrating to lose more models than have been physically 'hit' on the table. You can absolutely request your opponent resolve each rocket separately, any good sport would accept this as a fine procedure. Heck, it's even on page 33. Be prepared to give them the same benefit of the doubt, though.

If it was played like that then I guess the question falls down to were those same 9 boyz alive for all three shots?

 Bausk wrote:

If it was played like that then I guess the question falls down to were those same 9 boyz alive for all three shots?

I should correct myself - the rules as they were played for wound allocation were absolutely correct. You are right though, Bausk - if you did not roll saves and remove wounds the result would have been the same.

 zgort wrote:

Wingeds wrote:
Yes, and on page 33 for the Multiple blasts section it says to resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above. "Above" describes how to resolve one Blast shot. So what I'm asking is should we have done each shot separately by selecting target, rolling scatter, counting hits, then roll to wound, then saves? Is this how you play? Or how you would play at a tournament?

I can see why that would be frustrating to lose more models than have been physically 'hit' on the table. You can absolutely request your opponent resolve each rocket separately, any good sport would accept this as a fine procedure. Heck, it's even on page 33. Be prepared to give them the same benefit of the doubt, though.

You only resolve HITS separately. Wounding and saves are all resolved after.

Fragile wrote:

 zgort wrote:

Wingeds wrote:
Yes, and on page 33 for the Multiple blasts section it says to resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above. "Above" describes how to resolve one Blast shot. So what I'm asking is should we have done each shot separately by selecting target, rolling scatter, counting hits, then roll to wound, then saves? Is this how you play? Or how you would play at a tournament?

I can see why that would be frustrating to lose more models than have been physically 'hit' on the table. You can absolutely request your opponent resolve each rocket separately, any good sport would accept this as a fine procedure. Heck, it's even on page 33. Be prepared to give them the same benefit of the doubt, though.

You only resolve HITS separately. Wounding and saves are all resolved after.

Oh yeah, it says so under the multiple blast section, last two sentences of the first paragraph.