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MJThurston wrote:jcress410

It does not say that in Outside forces.

It says WOUNDS can not be allocated to the Challenge. Not attacks.

Blows = Wounds

If GW put Challengee and Challenger can only wound each other this would not be an issue. They used BLOWS. So are blows attacks or are they wounds.

If you read the next sentence you'd see they used wounds from squads not going to the challenge. So what do you think blows mean now? Attacks or wounds.

It has to be wounds because attacks are not allocated to enemy models, wounds are. Semantics be damned, but you cannot allocate an attack to a particular model. You allocate wounds.

No it says in the challenge part that wound allocation can not be used for Look Out Sir. So if a Model outside the challenge can't do this why would extra wounds just go outside of this challenge? They don't.

This. Just this. No one argues that if my honor guard kill all the Orks with 3 wounds to spare those wounds don't just disappear, but they can't possibly conceive of the Captain's wounds disappearing. It happens both ways.

The rule is written in more ways than one that this so called wound overflow doesn't happen.

They can't see the forest for the trees. They either want is so bad that they ignore everything to try to get it or they are looking too hard and over analyzing.

I'm going to drop my 2 cents for what it's worth...

Proper use of grammar in the rule book clearly should be read as "The participants in a challenge can only be wounded by eachother". It does not say anything about them not being able to wound other models.

However, there is a part of wound allocation in normal combat that I think may apply here, and that is that wounds should be allocated to models in the same initiative step. This essentially means that as long as there are regular marines in your squad (who should have all piled in on step 4) your power fist guy is not eligible to die (unless he's in a challenge) until after he piles in on step 1.

Basically it comes down to this, the pile-in rules result in a case where there MUST be models in the current initative step in base to base contact with eachother. Wounds can only be allocated to models that are not in B2B once any models in B2B are dead. It seems to me that GW was very careful in their wording for this purpose. The stipulation that Challenge participants are considered to be only in base contact with eachother is intended to prevent wound allocation away from the challenge while either participant is still alive. This is in direct accordance with normal combat wound allocation rules, and the Challenge section of the rulebook doesn't actually say anything that would override those rules. The only modification they make to normal combat rules is the removal of LoS, and the prevention of wounds from outside the challenge, and they do this explicitly. So you end up with three mandates for challenges:

1) Challange Participants are considered to be in B2B only with eachother, this results in wounds that MUST be allocated to the participants AS LONG AS THEY ARE ALIVE
2) LoS rolls are not allowed to allocate wounds out of the challenge, of course by design this stipulation only applies if both challengers are ALIVE, since you couldn't roll LoS for a dead character
3) Outside participants are not allowed to direct wounds into the challenge
4) Otherwise, normal combat rules apply... (which means wound allocation to the rest of the unit if a challenge participant dies, however, these wounds should be allocated first to models in the same initiative step, and those models should still be allowed to act in their initiative step before they die)

to me the conclusion here is that wound overflow does indeed happen, and there really is no mess or cimplication for how to resolve it. Otherwise GW could very easily have made the challenge rules say something like "For the duration of the challenge, the Challenger and Challengee are considered to be in their own separate combat". This is essentially what those who disagree with overflow are saying. The rulemakers seem to have gone out of their way to NOT say that.

MJThurston wrote:It is not Close Combat. It's a Challenge and Challenges have different rules than close combat.

Wrong. Please cite some rules, for once, to back this up or retract it

Given they occur in the Fight! sub pjhase and all, claiming it isnt a close combat will be rather difficult for you.

jcress410 wrote:
The reason people think a character in a challenge can't allocate wounds outside it is because of the wound allocation rules. You always allocate to a model in base first. So, if the characters are 'considered to be' in base the entire phase, they can only allocate wounds to eachother.
If they are not so considered, after one model in the challenge is removed as a casualty, the wounds continue to be allocated.

Please don't over simplify. This is one argument that has been presented and I have specifically refuted this argument. This is hardly the only reason we think wound overflow is a myth.

MJThurston wrote:Why yes he would just sit there while his squad is over run.

So lets do this the other way.

Your bad ass DP attacks my SM seargeant with a CCW. Does his 9 Brothers just sit there and watch you destroy him or jump in.

Challenges are separate fights. Trying to make them more than that is just not in the rules.

"challenges are separate fights" isn't in the rules either. I kind of wish it was.

It is, you just refuse to see it. Forest for the trees.

CanisLupus518 wrote:

.....

to me the conclusion here is that wound overflow does indeed happen, and there really is no mess or cimplication for how to resolve it. Otherwise GW could very easily have made the challenge rules say something like "For the duration of the challenge, the Challenger and Challengee are considered to be in their own separate combat". This is essentially what those who disagree with overflow are saying. The rulemakers seem to have gone out of their way to NOT say that.

Good summary. And it is odd the rules just didn't come out and say "resolve separately" or something.

It's also strange the rules didn't just include a "here's how to handle extra wounds from a challenge" sentence.

jcress410 wrote:It's also strange the rules didn't just include a "here's how to handle extra wounds from a challenge" sentence.

Because you would allocate them just like you would any other time...so why go out of your way to tell someone to do something they're supposed to do anyway?

Just IMO of course.

So basically one billy bad ass should be able to continually charge into close combat alone, just to win every combat and then sweeping advance?

So here is the new winning tactic.

Put two billy bad asses into a squad. During the movement phase send one IC to the right and one to the Left. Do a charge with 3 separate units and then challenge all of the fights.

Now your two billy bad asses can punk a seargeant, send wounds into the squads, win buy 4+ and then sweeping advance the rest.

So with only 12 models you can pretty much kill 3 separate squads.

Yep this is what GW wanted to happen.

MJ:
I agree. But, also think about the reverse.
If you can only allocate to the character, "billy bad ass" can easily fall in a tar pit.

There are a lot of units (i.e. ork boyz) that really rely on their I1 attacks to keep from losing combat. If the character can be neutralized via challenge (contributing only 1 wound to the result), it really nerfs characters and their upgrades.

Either way, the game changes.
Both situations have balance implications, I don't see any reason why the scenario you describe is any better/worse than the alternative.




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Greg_Hager wrote:

jcress410 wrote:It's also strange the rules didn't just include a "here's how to handle extra wounds from a challenge" sentence.

Because you would allocate them just like you would any other time...so why go out of your way to tell someone to do something they're supposed to do anyway?

Just IMO of course.

Because apparently they didn't know they were supposed to do it. My observation is just, the way outside combatants interact with a challenge is explicitly defined. The way a challenge interacts with outside combatants is not.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:
Fighting against a hero or with a hero, this rule would ruin the game. It would keep an expensive hero fighting one guy at a time.

No. There is only one challenge per close combat. That's on the first page top left of the challenge section. After Kharn lays waste to his challengee, then he is allowed to attack the rest of the squad in the next round of combat. It's just that the EXTRA wounds that he did to his challengee do not go over to the squad during the first round of combat.

jcress410 wrote:MJ:

Because apparently they didn't know they were supposed to do it. My observation is just, the way outside combatants interact with a challenge is explicitly defined. The way a challenge interacts with outside combatants is not.

The way a challenge interacts with outside combatants is explicitly defined albeit in a few different places in the rules. It is not contained within one sentence.

They are "in base contact only with each other."

They are not in base contact with anyone else, and they are considered to be in base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge.

Doesn't the whole wounds carry on argument fall apart when it says that even if one of them are dead they are still only in BtB with each other, and only each other, until the end of the phase.

Basically it's a combat within a combat that's outside the combat untill the end of that combat.

Gentlemen, page 65, fourth paragraph "Assault result".

Thats what happens with your additional wounds. Nothing more.

DeathReaper wrote:
The way a challenge interacts with outside combatants is explicitly defined albeit in a few different places in the rules. It is not contained within one sentence.

They are "in base contact only with each other."

They are not in base contact with anyone else, and they are considered to be in base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge.

At the risk of rehashing the entire thread,

They are not considered in base if one of them is dead.

Insisting they are requires misreading the "only with each other" sentence.




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Mr.Church13 wrote:Doesn't the whole wounds carry on argument fall apart when it says that even if one of them are dead they are still only in BtB with each other, and only each other, until the end of the phase.

Basically it's a combat within a combat that's outside the combat untill the end of that combat.

church, your description of the rules is one way to read them. In my view, it's not the correct way. (already explained why earlier in the thread, I have no desire to quote myself)

If your seargent is that week, then dont accept the challenge. Sure he wont be able to act, but youll still get normal wound allocation, though I don't see what the difference would be in the result.

jcress410 wrote:They are not considered in base if one of them is dead.

Insisting they are requires misreading the "only with each other" sentence.

Not a misread, Maybe we need to brush up on our British English.

But if the challenge is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase then no matter how you read it they are in base to base with the dead guy as all the challenge rules are still in effect.

Definitely not a misread in the UK, and continually asserting otherwise gets a tad annoying.

DeathReaper wrote:
They are not in base contact with anyone else, and they are considered to be in base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge.

It's important to remember that under normal wound allocation rules, just because a model is not in base contact with another model doesnt mean a wound can't be allocated to it. As long as a model is engaged (within 2" of a model that is in BTB) it can have a wound allocated. Since a unit will be engaged with the other unit outisde the challenge, any model in base contact with the winning characters unit, or within 2" is elegible to receive any unallocated wounds from a challenge where one participant dies. This allocation must be done according to normal allocation rules.

There is no wording in the Challenge rules that states that is a separate and self contained combat. The wording for such would be much simpler to write than what is in the rule book. The wording that is there prevents outside influence on an ongoing challenge, but does not prevent wounds from being allocated to the unit in the case a challenger dies.

CanisLupus518 wrote:There is no wording in the Challenge rules that states that is a separate and self contained combat. The wording for such would be much simpler to write than what is in the rule book. The wording that is there prevents outside influence on an ongoing challenge, but does not prevent wounds from being allocated to the unit in the case a challenger dies.

Incorrect good sir.

Ive referenced the page and paragraph (which is ironically on the next page) as to what happens to additional wounds caused by the Challenge. Just incase folks dont have their BRB nearby, it goes like this;

Page 65 wrote:Assault Result
Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units.

Underlined dictates where your extra unsaved wounds go towards.
Long thread here, drinks anyone?

Except the models in a challenge remain IN the challenge UNTIL the end of the phase. And while in a challenge each model are considered in base to base with eachother

CanisLupus518 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
They are not in base contact with anyone else, and they are considered to be in base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge.

It's important to remember that under normal wound allocation rules, just because a model is not in base contact with another model doesnt mean a wound can't be allocated to it. As long as a model is engaged (within 2" of a model that is in BTB) it can have a wound allocated. Since a unit will be engaged with the other unit outisde the challenge, any model in base contact with the winning characters unit, or within 2" is elegible to receive any unallocated wounds from a challenge where one participant dies. This allocation must be done according to normal allocation rules.

There is no wording in the Challenge rules that states that is a separate and self contained combat. The wording for such would be much simpler to write than what is in the rule book. The wording that is there prevents outside influence on an ongoing challenge, but does not prevent wounds from being allocated to the unit in the case a challenger dies.

Incorrect. They are considered to be in base contact even if one character in the challenge dies.

So if there are models in Base contact you must allocate to those models first. and since the guy in base contact is dead, but still in base contact, the wounds can go nowhere else.

Xzerios wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:There is no wording in the Challenge rules that states that is a separate and self contained combat. The wording for such would be much simpler to write than what is in the rule book. The wording that is there prevents outside influence on an ongoing challenge, but does not prevent wounds from being allocated to the unit in the case a challenger dies.

Incorrect good sir.

Ive referenced the page and paragraph (which is ironically on the next page) as to what happens to additional wounds caused by the Challenge. Just incase folks dont have their BRB nearby, it goes like this;

Page 65 wrote:Assault Result
Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units.

Underlined dictates where your extra unsaved wounds go towards.
Long thread here, drinks anyone?

Right, but just like in 5e, you still only count wounds actually inflicted. So 4 wounds on a 1 wound model only contributes 1 to the result, no?


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DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote:They are not considered in base if one of them is dead.

Insisting they are requires misreading the "only with each other" sentence.

Not a misread, Maybe we need to brush up on our British English.

Do you really think there's a difference between american / british english on the syntax of "only"

"He only gets drunk in pubs"
or
"he gets drunk only in pubs"

the second is correct in both countries, i assume.

I don't know much about the difference between american/british english.

Do they still call cigarettes fags in the UK?

Occasionally.

The Wounds are unsaved, no?

You cause four wounds on a one wound model. He saves the first one but fails the second. Two more unsaved wounds remain in the pool as the defending model is unable to save the rest, your additional wounds now carry to the assault result instead of being lost.

Xzerios wrote:

Incorrect good sir.

Ive referenced the page and paragraph (which is ironically on the next page) as to what happens to additional wounds caused by the Challenge. Just incase folks dont have their BRB nearby, it goes like this;

Page 65 wrote:Assault Result
Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units.

Underlined dictates where your extra unsaved wounds go towards.
Long thread here, drinks anyone?

You actually are incorrect. As the Assault Result section says nothing about unallocated wounds, only unsaved wounds. This section tells you that even if a challenge participant doesnt die, any wounds caused inside the challenge count towards the overal assault result. There is nothing in this statement that directly addresses the issue of unalloacted wounds after one challege participant has died.

Also, I whleheartedly reject the idea that even when dead the model is still there, as this seems like stretching the word "only" quite a bit. There are no rules anywhere in any WH40k book that state that wounds are absorbed by a dead model that happens to be in BTB contact.

Xzerios wrote:The Wounds are unsaved, no?

You cause four wounds on a one wound model. He saves the first one but fails the second. Two more unsaved wounds remain in the pool as the defending model is unable to save the rest, your additional wounds now carry to the assault result instead of being lost.

They cannot, as you are still in b2b and cannot therefore allocte any wounds away

We're 11 pages after wound overflow was shown not to work now...

Xzerios wrote:The Wounds are unsaved, no?

You cause four wounds on a one wound model. He saves the first one but fails the second. Two more unsaved wounds remain in the pool as the defending model is unable to save the rest, your additional wounds now carry to the assault result instead of being lost.

This would be a change from 5e. I'm going to start a separate thread, because I'm not sure what's going to happen.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
They cannot, as you are still in b2b and cannot therefore allocte any wounds away

We're 11 pages after wound overflow was shown not to work now...

I don't think we are.

I still haven't seen a convincing argument that you can be in b2b with a model that has been removed as a casualty.

The one part of the rules people crutch on to support that view has been parsed repeatedly on this thread, and though i think my reading is correct, a lot of people read it differently.

I think we're far from "showing" anything.

It'll get resolved in a faq. Rumor is august, no?

CanisLupus518 wrote:
You actually are incorrect. As the Assault Result section says nothing about unallocated wounds, only unsaved wounds. This section tells you that even if a challenge participant doesnt die, any wounds caused inside the challenge count towards the overal assault result. There is nothing in this statement that directly addresses the issue of unalloacted wounds after one challege participant has died.

Also, I whleheartedly reject the idea that even when dead the model is still there, as this seems like stretching the word "only" quite a bit. There are no rules anywhere in any WH40k book that state that wounds are absorbed by a dead model that happens to be in BTB contact.

An unallocated wound is still an unsaved wound that remains in your pool. Reguardless of where you in this case 'can't' allocate it to. Following the rules for Challenges, your wounds may only be assigned to the challenged model. You may not assign your extra wounds else where, thats been established by the first sentence of Outside Forces on page 64.

I really don't think it will get FAQed as its pretty clear that it doesn't work.

Mr.Church13 wrote:I really don't think it will get FAQed as its pretty clear that it doesn't work.

I hope like heck it does get faq'd because it's pretty clear nothing's pretty clear.