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liturgies of blood wrote:Sorry, my mistake. For wounds carry on read, page 2 as you quoted, page 3, zero-lvl characteristics(the bold text) and page 15 the wound allocation.

So the wound is a measure of how much damage a model can take, if this value falls to zero you die, you remove them til you run out. Once you run out the models are removed from play. Where in that can you restore the wound counter after each turn? Page 2 tells you in very fluffy language that when you hit zero wounds a model cannot fight any longer.

But there's nothing - at all - saying that after I subtract a wound it has to stay off. Nothing saying it's an ongoing effect. You said there was.
The wound is resolved - I've subtracted one from my profile. Now that we're out of the shooting phase I can add it back. It's not stated to be ongoing, right?

Well EL tells you that on a successful roll that you can come back. That's where it's stated, that is one of 3 rules that can allow a model to be on the board after being RFPaaC.

You completely sidestepped my question. I'll quote it.

rigeld2 wrote:And what tells you that - since you're the one asserting that it must be stated?

Referring to your statement of:

RFPaaC is an ongoing effect, for almost every unit in the game it is an ongoing and permanent effect,

You've asserted that an ongoing effect must be stated. You've failed to prove it with Wounds. Go for RFPaaC now.

No longer is it just throwing muck, it's not racking it.
What lets a model enter play? Deployment and being in reserves(there are some others but they are special rules), when removed from play how does a model re-enter it?
Models need specific permission to enter play.

I have a measure of how much damage a model can take, it takes all that it can take.... the rules state an outcome for when it has taken all the damage it can take...
Did the damage cease to happen? No
Did the damage get healed somehow? No
Does the damage disappear in a permissive ruleset? No

You have now gone from permissive ruleset to inane analogy ruleset.

You lost the argument and are now trying to trip me up in non-analogous issues. I said that the effect is at that stage, a phrase that when read can infer an ongoing effect but DOES NOT STATE AN ONGOING EFFECT. There is also another option that reads it relating to the current subphase of the game.

The onus is on your to prove that your reading is the correct one not just prove that mine may not be. You need to do more than cast dispersions.

Aspersions

Odd, usually it is up to one side to prove their case, when the other has done so already.

Personally I HAVE a defined period for the SA effect - the rest of the Battle. As it tells you.

What makes you think it isnt the rest of the battle? The rule DOES say otherwise, so it will be intersting for you to actually provide a decent rules argument showing how it is single instant
(Oh, and if it relates to the same sub phase, EL still cannot occur. As the Fight sub phase is also the end of the assault phase)

Other then at this stage, a phrase that means two things, what states an ongoing effect?


If you are removed from the board how do you come back? Is there any way? No? Then it's ongoing.

liturgies of blood wrote:I have a measure of how much damage a model can take, it takes all that it can take.... the rules state an outcome for when it has taken all the damage it can take...
Did the damage cease to happen? No
Did the damage get healed somehow? No
Does the damage disappear in a permissive ruleset? No

The rules state an outcome (RFPaaC and cannot be rescued unless otherwise stated).
Did the RFPaaC cease to happen? No.
Does something otherwise state? No.
Does the state of requiring something to be otherwise stated disappear in a permissive ruleset? No.

You lost the argument and are now trying to trip me up in non-analogous issues. I said that the effect is at that stage, a phrase that when read can infer an ongoing effect but DOES NOT STATE AN ONGOING EFFECT. There is also another option that reads it relating to the current subphase of the game.

You still haven't shown that Wounds, RFPaaC, or anything else you assert (copying your caps) STATES AN ONGOING EFFECT.

Yes, it's inane to require that. You're the one requiring it.

The onus is on your to prove that your reading is the correct one not just prove that mine may not be. You need to do more than cast dispersions.

I have. The entire thread. I'm showing you how your reading makes no sense if you apply it rulebook wide. If you're requiring a rule to have to state it's an ongoing effect, but you exempt Wounds, RFPaaC, or whatever else - I'm forced to ask why you exclude them. You haven't given a rule that says "Wounds are ongoing." You're inferring it based on context. And then telling me that I'm wrong when I do the exact same thing to SA.

Context, that thing you keep ignoring and seem to be hoping will go away

Being told that the stage continues until the end of the battle REALLY should clue you in, but apparently it hasnt been.

Or are you going to (re?)assert that a semi colon acts as a period, as has been raised and demolished twice this thread already?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Context, that thing you keep ignoring and seem to be hoping will go away

Being told that the stage continues until the end of the battle REALLY should clue you in, but apparently it hasnt been.

Or are you going to (re?)assert that a semi colon acts as a period, as has been raised and demolished twice this thread already?

Where does it say that stage, the stage where no save or special rule may save the unit, continues? Explicitly states it, not implicit understanding.

liturgies of blood wrote:Explicitly states it, not implicit understanding.

The exact same place it states it for Wounds and RFPaaC.

So you are going to shoehorn a limitation in there because despite there is no method for a model to come back on the board when RFPaaC(apart from EL, RP and st celestine) there is no way to come back?
I see....

liturgies of blood wrote:So you are going to shoehorn a limitation in there because despite there is no method for a model to come back on the board when RFPaaC(apart from EL, RP and st celestine) there is no way to come back?
I see....

Yeah, there's no method to come back apart from methods to come back.
I'm not really sure what this post has to do with the discussion at hand.

Have you found some place that explicitly states that wounds and RFPaaC are ongoing effects yet?
If not, why are you drawing an arbitrary line for them but not giving the same treatment to SA?

Because there is only 3 stated methods to come back from being RFPaaC.
There is only 1 way to get wounds back in the BRB.
The rules don't give you a way to come back otherwise or to gain back wounds.

I am not drawing an arbitrary line I am reading what is written, I am stating that within the context of the paragraph that there is no ongoing effect. You have inferred one and are just trying to draw this out.

"I shall take a piss at this stage". Do I continue to empty my bowls forever?

rigeld2 wrote:Have you found some place that explicitly states that wounds and RFPaaC are ongoing effects yet?
If not, why are you drawing an arbitrary line for them but not giving the same treatment to SA?

Two sentences:

1. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit."
2. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

The first, has no limit placed on it. The second which is what the rulebook says, has a limit. It's limited to the Sweeping Advance stage of combat.

This lets units with ATSKNF stay alive "at this stage." This also makes models with EL die "at this stage". It says nothing about other stages of combat or what happens after combat is over.

liturgies of blood wrote:Because there is only 3 stated methods to come back from being RFPaaC.

And there's 1 stated method to stop SA.

The rules don't give you a way to come back otherwise or to gain back wounds.

The rules don't give EL a way to bring a unit back after SA.

I am not drawing an arbitrary line I am reading what is written, I am stating that within the context of the paragraph that there is no ongoing effect. You have inferred one and are just trying to draw this out.

Stop with the accusations please.
You are drawing an arbitrary line. You have said that SA doesn't explicitly say that it is an ongoing effect, therefore it isn't.
You've failed to see that Wounds and RFPaaC do the exact same thing.
So you're allowing an inference in those two cases but refuse to do so for SA. That's an arbitrary line.

"I shall take a piss at this stage". Do I continue to empty my bowls forever?

Until you move on to the next stage, sure. When you're taking a piss you get to decide when to transition from one stage to the next.
In the rules, you need to be told when to do this. You haven't found where the next stage begins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Have you found some place that explicitly states that wounds and RFPaaC are ongoing effects yet?
If not, why are you drawing an arbitrary line for them but not giving the same treatment to SA?

Two sentences:

1. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit."
2. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

The first, has no limit placed on it. The second which is what the rulebook says, has a limit. It's limited to the Sweeping Advance stage of combat.

This lets units with ATSKNF stay alive "at this stage." This also makes models with EL die "at this stage". It says nothing about other stages of combat or what happens after combat is over.

Cite the rule proving the bolded statement. You'd be the first, despite being asked to show evidence multiple times.

"at this stage" allows a rule to change things later. Right now there isn't one. That doesn't mean no such rule will ever exist.

edit: Also, you still haven't shown what I asked for in my quote. You're applying a restriction to SA (can only operate during that stage because it doesn't explicitly state otherwise) but allowing Wounds and RFPaaC to go on forever with no restrictions despite the fact that they also don't explicitly state that they're ongoing effects.

rigeld2 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Have you found some place that explicitly states that wounds and RFPaaC are ongoing effects yet?
If not, why are you drawing an arbitrary line for them but not giving the same treatment to SA?

Two sentences:

1. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit."
2. "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

The first, has no limit placed on it. The second which is what the rulebook says, has a limit. It's limited to the Sweeping Advance stage of combat.

This lets units with ATSKNF stay alive "at this stage." This also makes models with EL die "at this stage". It says nothing about other stages of combat or what happens after combat is over.

Cite the rule proving the bolded statement. You'd be the first, despite being asked to show evidence multiple times.

"at this stage" allows a rule to change things later. Right now there isn't one. That doesn't mean no such rule will ever exist.

edit: Also, you still haven't shown what I asked for in my quote. You're applying a restriction to SA (can only operate during that stage because it doesn't explicitly state otherwise) but allowing Wounds and RFPaaC to go on forever with no restrictions despite the fact that they also don't explicitly state that they're ongoing effects.

You're getting a bit extreme, but I'll do my best to explain fully. It comes down to permissive ruleset.

Wounds - you are told to take them off. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put wounds back, so you can't.
RFPaaC - you are told to remove the model from play. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put models back, so you can't.
SA - restricts you from rescuing/saving Necron models during the SA stage. So you can't keep a model alive at this stage. Nothing restricts special rules regarding that model at a later stage.

Nemesor Dave wrote:You're getting a bit extreme, but I'll do my best to explain fully. It comes down to permissive ruleset.

Wounds - you are told to take them off. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put wounds back, so you can't.
RFPaaC - you are told to remove the model from play. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put models back, so you can't.
SA - restricts you from rescuing/saving Necron models during the SA stage. So you can't keep a model alive at this stage. Nothing restricts special rules regarding that model at a later stage.

And why are you saying "SA stage"? Could you cite something limiting that phrase? Finally?

The "stage" is limited to "Right now" as its written. Again, the way the sentence is structured sets up the way "Stage" is meant to be used. Its tense can be swung to the undefined period of time your claiming, but the words that precede it are cut off by the Semi-colon; Thusly limiting to at that step of the rule, that stage of the rule, up to now in the rule.

Your asking for a rule; Its -right- there in front of you. Your unable to grasp it because you mind is made up with RAI "at this stage onwards". RAW the rule works "at this stage" and no longer.



If folks wish to start a wounds being removed and coming back argument, start a new topic. This one is for the way Ever Living interacts with Sweeping Advances. Thanks. :3

So we have moved from SA being an action to an ongoing event ,which you say we have to prove ends .

Answer play it your way
The unit that does the sweeping advance can not move shoot or assault for the rest of the game since we cant prove it ends (your words )

Models losing their wounds can( with no rule to allow it )regain them after the phase (stage)they suffered them in has ended although its ongoing because we cant prove they are not ongoing (your words )

Models RFPAAC for any reason may be placed back on the board at the the start of the next phase ,turn (stage)with no rules allowing them to do so because we cant prove RFPAAC is ongoing (your words )

Every game is a draw as no one can kill anyone, so sounds like a fun game .

SA is an action that like shooting or combats , will if successful remove models from play as casualties (the only difference is SA will remove models with wounds left ,IE multiple wound models , guaranteed )

RFPAAC is the result of SA which 90% of models/ units can not come back from or we would have the above situation .

RFPAAC is not SA It is a way of stating a model is dead and is no longer part of the battle, but in some codex's models have special rules that interact with RFPAAC (not SA)and they allow them at certain stages /sub Phases and phases to be placed back on the table after they have been RFPAAC

This is the crux of the pro EL argument and you have failed to understand it and i can grantee will continue to argue against it which means no matter what we say you wont accept it

SO we all have 3 options

1 Continue arguing round and round with neither side conceding (wheather right or wrong )
2 Let it end and whilst waiting for an FAQ , if you play someone with the opposing view of this argument to your own, roll off for it
3 Refuse to play anyone that does not agree with you while awaiting an FAQ.

I am sure the pro EL side will agree with me that 2 is the best option and 3 to be the second but will the anti EL side agree or will they think by not arguing they would have lost and pick option 1 ??????

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:You're getting a bit extreme, but I'll do my best to explain fully. It comes down to permissive ruleset.

Wounds - you are told to take them off. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put wounds back, so you can't.
RFPaaC - you are told to remove the model from play. Nothing says you may arbitrarily put models back, so you can't.
SA - restricts you from rescuing/saving Necron models during the SA stage. So you can't keep a model alive at this stage. Nothing restricts special rules regarding that model at a later stage.

And why are you saying "SA stage"? Could you cite something limiting that phrase? Finally?

The subject of the whole section under Sweeping Advance is the SA stage of combat. Sweeping Advance section: If X, then do Y "at this stage". Stage here means the current step in a process. That is what "at this stage" means. I won't re-post the link to the phrase definition.

Of course it's not talking about some other stage of combat.

Xzerios wrote:The "stage" is limited to "Right now" as its written. Again, the way the sentence is structured sets up the way "Stage" is meant to be used. Its tense can be swung to the undefined period of time your claiming, but the words that precede it are cut off by the Semi-colon; Thusly limiting to at that step of the rule, that stage of the rule, up to now in the rule.

Your asking for a rule; Its -right- there in front of you. Your unable to grasp it because you mind is made up with RAI "at this stage onwards". RAW the rule works "at this stage" and no longer.

Except I've shown that common usage agrees with me even completely ignoring the semicolon and everything after it.
I've never cited that phrase as support. I don't need it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snakel wrote:Answer play it your way
The unit that does the sweeping advance can not move shoot or assault for the rest of the game since we cant prove it ends (your words )

Models losing their wounds can( with no rule to allow it )regain them after the phase (stage)they suffered them in has ended although its ongoing because we cant prove they are not ongoing (your words )

Models RFPAAC for any reason may be placed back on the board at the the start of the next phase ,turn (stage)with no rules allowing them to do so because we cant prove RFPAAC is ongoing (your words )

Absolutely false. Please stop strawmanning. Those are absolutely not my words - unless you work for Fox News.

Here's another place in the BRB that use "stage":

Manifesting Psychic Powers p. 67
"Different psychic powers are used at different stages in the
turn; some powers are used at the start of the turn, others
are used at the start of a particular phase, or might replace a
model's normal action within that phase. Sometimes, this will
be specified in the psychic power itself."

You see?
1. The start of the turn - a stage.
2. Start of a particular phase - a stage
3. A normal action within that phase - a stage.

Sweeping Advance - a normal action within a phase - a stage. Sweeping Advance is a stage of combat.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The subject of the whole section under Sweeping Advance is the SA stage of combat. Sweeping Advance section: If X, then do Y "at this stage". Stage here means the current step in a process. That is what "at this stage" means. I won't re-post the link to the phrase definition.

The rule doesn't say "If X, do Y at this stage". It says "X happens. Unless otherwise specified Y at this stage."
The links that have been posted agree with my interpretation, so I understand why you wouldn't want to link them.

Of course it's not talking about some other stage of combat.

I never said "of combat".

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The subject of the whole section under Sweeping Advance is the SA stage of combat. Sweeping Advance section: If X, then do Y "at this stage". Stage here means the current step in a process. That is what "at this stage" means. I won't re-post the link to the phrase definition.

The rule doesn't say "If X, do Y at this stage". It says "X happens. Unless otherwise specified Y at this stage."
The links that have been posted agree with my interpretation, so I understand why you wouldn't want to link them.

Of course it's not talking about some other stage of combat.

I never said "of combat".

See my post above. The phase is the combat phase. The SA action is at a stage of the combat phase.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here's another place in the BRB that use "stage":

Manifesting Psychic Powers
Different psychic powers are used at different stages in the
turn; some powers are used at the start of the turn, others
are used at the start of a particular phase, or might replace a
model's normal action within that phase. Sometimes, this will
be specified in the psychic power itself.

You see?
1. The start of the turn - a stage.
2. Start of a particular phase - a stage
3. A normal action within that phase - a stage.

Sweeping Advance - a normal action within a phase - a stage. Sweeping Advance is a stage of combat.

Wow - its like I've never seen that before. Except I have. I brought it up something near 10 pages ago.
And it supports my point.
There are stages. They are different lengths. Effects that happen within a stage last longer than the stage unless canceled.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here's another place in the BRB that use "stage":

Manifesting Psychic Powers
Different psychic powers are used at different stages in the
turn; some powers are used at the start of the turn, others
are used at the start of a particular phase, or might replace a
model's normal action within that phase. Sometimes, this will
be specified in the psychic power itself.

You see?
1. The start of the turn - a stage.
2. Start of a particular phase - a stage
3. A normal action within that phase - a stage.

Sweeping Advance - a normal action within a phase - a stage. Sweeping Advance is a stage of combat.

Wow - its like I've never seen that before. Except I have. I brought it up something near 10 pages ago.
And it supports my point.
There are stages. They are different lengths. Effects that happen within a stage last longer than the stage unless canceled.

There are no different lengths of time shown. Each of these are a point in time in the game.

The start of the turn. The start of movment phase. The start of Combat phase. A normal action within a phase - Sweeping Advance.

Nemesor Dave wrote:There are no different lengths of time shown. Each of these are a point in time in the game.

The start of the turn. The start of movment phase. The start of Combat phase. A normal action within a phase - Sweeping Advance.

And none of them have any effect ever after that stage is over. I see your point - models don't actually move around the battlefield. Thanks for reminding me.

Lasting effects happen without having to be specified.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:There are no different lengths of time shown. Each of these are a point in time in the game.

The start of the turn. The start of movment phase. The start of Combat phase. A normal action within a phase - Sweeping Advance.

And none of them have any effect ever after that stage is over. I see your point - models don't actually move around the battlefield. Thanks for reminding me.

Lasting effects happen without having to be specified.

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage."

So, nothing can save them during the Sweeping Advance stage. That leaves it wide open for anything to save them after the Sweeping Advance stage.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The subject of the whole section under Sweeping Advance is the SA stage of combat. Sweeping Advance section: If X, then do Y "at this stage". Stage here means the current step in a process. That is what "at this stage" means. I won't re-post the link to the phrase definition.

The rule doesn't say "If X, do Y at this stage". It says "X happens. Unless otherwise specified Y at this stage."
The links that have been posted agree with my interpretation, so I understand why you wouldn't want to link them.

Of course it's not talking about some other stage of combat.

I never said "of combat".

At this stage is a final point as its written, once more. Again, the links you posted on page 13 have confirmed that the way -this sentence in the rule is written- is the end point for the check for Saves and Special Rules. You may continue to assert that your links affirm your point of view on the matter; They will be disregarded as you fail to understand this sentence in the rule itself. Ill say it once more, for "at this stage" to be the ongoing effect you claim it to be, it must be written within -this- sentence as follows:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule may rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over.

There you have it. A sentence that matches what you read. All tenses agree with each other and the semi-colon has been removed to reaffirm the continuation of the check to the end of the game.
To refute this logic at this stage will only prove your lack of understanding of the sentence, for I would concede with the presented information.

Xzerios wrote:They will be disregarded as you fail to understand this sentence in the rule itself. Ill say it once more, for "at this stage" to be the ongoing effect you claim it to be, it must be written within -this- sentence as follows:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule may rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over.

There you have it. A sentence that matches what you read. All tenses agree with each other and the semi-colon has been removed to reaffirm the continuation of the check to the end of the game.
To refute this logic at this stage will only prove your lack of understanding of the sentence, for I would concede with the presented information.

a) cyan on white is really hard to read - just FYI.
b) You could turn that comma into a period - it just doesn't matter. It's fluff reinforcement that isn't needed to hold up the rule.
c) Why the change from can to may? "You are not able to." isn't that different from "You do not have permission to." in this context.

rigeld2 wrote:
I dont see where the sentence changed to read this way. However again your not understanding that the present tense of "stage" is to mean "Up to this point". It doesnt change and its context cant be changed to future-tense due to the words written with in the sentence.
Have you read the definitions and examples your peers have posted?
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/at+this+stage " At this stage, we are better off not calling the doctor"
That's not "this exact moment in time and will never be another moment" or "up to this point" it's "unless something changes"
http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage "I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later"
Again, not a single point in time, but covers a period of time (until "later").

I had missed this so I'd like to point something out about this.
"At this stage, we are better off not calling the doctor"
Meaning, at the next stage we may be better off calling the doctor. The moment you are in the next stage, this sentence does not apply.

"I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later"
The current stage is now, the next stage would be later. You may be able to pitch in after this stage is over.

You see, in all of these examples, the conditions end when the next stage begins.

The conditions for SA end when the next stage (Consolidation) begins.

Nemesor Dave wrote:You see, in all of these examples, the conditions may end when the next stage begins.

The conditions for SA may end when the next stage (Consolidation) begins.

Fixed that for you.
There aren't any rules lifting the restriction. As I've said.
It's. An. Ongoing. Effect.