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If GW leaves a gap in the market they created then I do not understand your issue. So many people have been using "counts as" armies using other manufacturer parts, tanks for IG from other manufactures, and (GASP) other companies models to suit their flavor for their own GW army. However the largest portion of the market still belongs to GW and those companies that sell add on parts are such a small portion they should have no effect on GW. Actually GW taking the stance as the inverse is stupid on their part and a great way to lose money. Isnt the current Nurgle Demon Prince modle a sculpt that GW got at a gamesday from an entry? That is the business model they should adapt. Rather than waste money suing maybe they should buy out these small companies if they are such a threat and hold them to a non-compete clause. Win/Win.... I believe the first land speeder was actually made of a deodorant bottle....first great conversion trouncing on GW IP? SUE SPEED STICK!!!!

Yes that is how silly your argument is Panic...sorry....

That being said I would love to know if Ilyanden is or will be released in other digital formats? Anyone have a rumor or info on that?

Could Games-Workshop not just create Codex entries without official models, then people can kit-bash/convert/counts-as these models using GW parts, or go to third party manufacturers?
If the former, then GW makes money, if the latter then they don't actually have an official model to lose sales from?

I imagine this would work particularly well with Iyanna, for example, who could be a simple conversion with GW parts.

To me at least (as a layman) this seems the best option for the customer...?

There's no infringement going on there, GW left a hole so someone else came in to fill it. Not everybody wants to have to convert or scratchbuild their army to be WYSIWYG for, say, an upcoming tournament. They want a model they can buy, and when the "model company" that makes the game decides not to make a model, they're obviously going to look elsewhere. Companies like Chapterhouse are good for the player, GW just took their reaction too far. They could still easily slow down their release cycle and give every army one or two additional new kits, but they'd rather get all of their rules updated (which I'm in favor of).

Essentially, the problem comes down to them claiming to be a model company but producing like they're a rules company.

I remember back when this thread was about the Iyanden supplement and not about chapterhouse vs. Gw. Please, there are other threads for this.


On-Topic

, like many others dislike the price of the supplement but a friend of mine has passed on ssome pleasant knowledge...

"This is your hobby. If you want to continue doing it, shut up and buy what you want. If you have an issue with the prices, DONT BUY THEM and do something else."

On to a sub point, I actually enjoy the Iyanden book and the rules are a nice little deviation from the main book. Am I convinced to buy all of the supplements....no. Will I buy the ones that I will use. Well hell yeah because I think in the long run everyone will be happy to be able to play with those armies that are backed by the GW canon because its worth it to them.

 Guildsman wrote:
If Chapterhouse has any effect on GW's production model, it's GW's fault. All of us are forgetting the easiest, and possibly best option that GW has at its disposal: ignore them. Seriously, they could ignore Chapterhouse completely and release models whenever they feel like it. Once the official GW model comes out, demand for the third party version will dry up. We've seen this happen with the tervigon release. No need to fuss about any of it.

Besides, if one guy in his garage can threaten a multi-million pound corporation like GW, then the corporation is failing, profoundly.

This. A thousand times over.

 Guildsman wrote:
If Chapterhouse has any effect on GW's production model, it's GW's fault. All of us are forgetting the easiest, and possibly best option that GW has at its disposal: ignore them. Seriously, they could ignore Chapterhouse completely and release models whenever they feel like it. Once the official GW model comes out, demand for the third party version will dry up. We've seen this happen with the tervigon release. No need to fuss about any of it.

Besides, if one guy in his garage can threaten a multi-million pound corporation like GW, then the corporation is failing, profoundly.

Wrong.

Just because I could by an alarm, doesn't make robbing my house legal if I don't.

Just because I own a thousand cars and losing one doesn't cost me much, stealing one of them is still stealing a car.

Chapterhouse are crooks of the worst kind. That GW's business isn't fundamentally endangered by them does in no way mitigate the moral abomination that is Chapterhouse's "offering" to this hobby.

Producing models that GW doesn't is not stealing or morally wrong.
Producing models that have the same use as GW's offering but aren't direct copies isn't stealing or morally wrong. Competition, free market and all. The best offering wins..
Producing kits that require you to actually buy GW models to actually is not stealing or morally wrong. Actually it is morally wrong to require us to buy GW stuff!

No cars were stolen..

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
If Chapterhouse has any effect on GW's production model, it's GW's fault. All of us are forgetting the easiest, and possibly best option that GW has at its disposal: ignore them. Seriously, they could ignore Chapterhouse completely and release models whenever they feel like it. Once the official GW model comes out, demand for the third party version will dry up. We've seen this happen with the tervigon release. No need to fuss about any of it.

Besides, if one guy in his garage can threaten a multi-million pound corporation like GW, then the corporation is failing, profoundly.

Wrong.

Just because I could by an alarm, doesn't make robbing my house legal if I don't.

Just because I own a thousand cars and losing one doesn't cost me much, stealing one of them is still stealing a car.

Chapterhouse are crooks of the worst kind. That GW's business isn't fundamentally endangered by them does in no way mitigate the moral abomination that is Chapterhouse's "offering" to this hobby.

You're comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison is the one someone brought up earlier about aftermarket parts for a car. Totally legal to buy a new stereo system or some rims or whatever. By your logic, Madcats (the game controller brand) are criminals because they're making alternates to an existing product. Now, you could argue that Madcats controllers are criminally terrible and I'd agree, but that's not the point .

When one company doesn't make something you can't say it's criminal for another to do it instead.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

You're comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison is the one someone brought up earlier about aftermarket parts for a car. Totally legal to buy a new stereo system or some rims or whatever. By your logic, Madcats (the game controller brand) are criminals because they're making alternates to an existing product. Now, you could argue that Madcats controllers are criminally terrible and I'd agree, but that's not the point .

When one company doesn't make something you can't say it's criminal for another to do it instead.

I am not comparing anything.

I am making an analogy to illustrate the ludicrousness of the argument, that GW's relatively larger scale - and the fact that Chapterhouses competition isn't life-threatening to them - would in itself excuse the moral perfidy of leeches like Chapterhouse.

Yes. Chapterhouses business isn't stealing cars. A given.

That wasn't the point of the analogy, as should've been painfully obvious to everyone reading the quote I referenced before making this analogy.

Discussion of how CH and other third parties may or may not have effected GW's decisions regarding publishing this supplement or supplements in general is fine and on-topic. Discussion of whether or not CH and other third parties are morally or legally in the right or wrong is off-topic. Please keep in mind that Rule Number Two is Stay On Topic.

 Fishboy wrote:
If GW leaves a gap in the market they created then I do not understand your issue. So many people have been using "counts as" armies using other manufacturer parts, tanks for IG from other manufactures, and (GASP) other companies models to suit their flavor for their own GW army. However the largest portion of the market still belongs to GW and those companies that sell add on parts are such a small portion they should have no effect on GW. Actually GW taking the stance as the inverse is stupid on their part and a great way to lose money. Isnt the current Nurgle Demon Prince modle a sculpt that GW got at a gamesday from an entry? That is the business model they should adapt. Rather than waste money suing maybe they should buy out these small companies if they are such a threat and hold them to a non-compete clause. Win/Win.... I believe the first land speeder was actually made of a deodorant bottle....first great conversion trouncing on GW IP? SUE SPEED STICK!!!!

Yes that is how silly your argument is Panic...sorry....

That being said I would love to know if Ilyanden is or will be released in other digital formats? Anyone have a rumor or info on that?

actually, given how the kind of folks who cheerlead for an even more restrictive system of IP law than is already in place seem to be generally, you really ought to try just setting all of them to 'ignore'. Really, my reading pleasure on dakka has increased greatly since I did.
On topic: the other digital formats will happen whenever they release all their stuff in other digital formats. AFAIK: not bloody likely anytime soon. Why do you really feel the need, though? Doesn't even the US permit the use of downloaded files as backups of already otherwise legally owned content? Just have the physical book lying around at home. The one benefit of the digital books is the added content and since that's all iBooks specific, that's not going to jump platform anytime soon in all likelihood. It's not as if there's a penny in the way of discount on them compared to the hardcopy.

 Huoshini wrote:
like many others dislike the price of the supplement but a friend of mine has passed on ssome pleasant knowledge...

"This is your hobby. If you want to continue doing it, shut up and buy what you want. If you have an issue with the prices, DONT BUY THEM and do something else."

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm not doing that. If I'm bitching about prices I'm most likely not buying the crap (one of the rare exceptions was Space Hulk, I didn't think that game should be $100 but I eventually caved and bought it...apparently lucky I did, because Space Hulk is fething awesome and it's like $300 now on eBay). $50 for a codex supplement is a rip-off, especially if future releases match the quality of this one, and I don't see myself being enticed to buy one while they remain $50. Still don't have a riptide or a sun shark, either, and those are both models with ridiculous price points and horrible sculpts to boot.

That said I still reserve every right to bitch about those things online until they stop annoying me. Or in regards to Tau models, when GW finally makes a plastic barracuda for $65 so I can actually buy flyers for my army.

Actually now that I think about it, I'm still not that lucky because while I do own a copy of SH, I can't actually play with it because it's so fething expensive and rare now. I only played with it twice before I realized this and put it away. I checked it the other day and I still don't have any warped tiles or broken models (though a couple are close, they're still unpainted so you can see stressed plastic on a couple of dangly bits).

 Guildsman wrote:
If Chapterhouse has any effect on GW's production model, it's GW's fault. All of us are forgetting the easiest, and possibly best option that GW has at its disposal: ignore them. Seriously, they could ignore Chapterhouse completely and release models whenever they feel like it. Once the official GW model comes out, demand for the third party version will dry up. We've seen this happen with the tervigon release. No need to fuss about any of it.

Not only that, but GW would have been a million bucks richer in the end, if nothing else.

As for Iyanden being unavailable, judging from that review from a previous page, it seems like that's no big loss. I'm sure it'll probably come back though...unlike a certain other codex that I would love to see, more than a literal mountain of $50 supplements with crappy fluff and two pages of rules.

Am I the only one pissed that I cannot buy this damn book? I tried every legal option available stopping short at buying an Ipad so I can overpay for a digital edition.

The usual illegal venues don't even have it yet. What the hell is the point of putting out a product with fanfaire if you cant even supply it?

Just be patient. I bet it's just like Death from the Skies.

Man I have been playing an Iyanden/Eldritch Raiders list since this game started, my patience is long gone. I am miffed that I thought my flgs was going to be able to stock this book and I made the mistake of waiting to you know, support them.

Also this: http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?index=0&sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=271225367361

Insanity!

Sorry, I don't get the problem. Just contain yourself for a few weeks while GW get more in stock.

I suppose from an outside point of view this could look like a non issue, but playing an iyanden list and having games (large ones at that) that are upcoming (like tommorow) without having access to the now official rules to the army because I made a very ill informed choice (like supporting my flgs when it turns out that a codex supplement is direct order only) is extremely frustrating.

The problem is that a company trying to make money is failing at taking the money I want to give it for a product because of their poor business decisions.

This book should be on the shelves of at the very least every GW store out there let alone all game stores.

Swabby wrote:
because I made a very ill informed choice

Seems like even you really know that this isn't GW's fault ...

Swabby wrote:
I suppose from an outside point of view this could look like a non issue, but playing an iyanden list and having games (large ones at that) that are upcoming (like tommorow) without having access to the now official rules to the army because I made a very ill informed choice (like supporting my flgs when it turns out that a codex supplement is direct order only) is extremely frustrating.

The problem is that a company trying to make money is failing at taking the money I want to give it for a product because of their poor business decisions.

This book should be on the shelves of at the very least every GW store out there let alone all game stores.

Why?

They're making it available online. Get over it and order one when they have them back in stock.

I personally think this supplement is priced far too highly for what it contains. But I am willing to admit that if GW published such a supplement for the armies that I am interested in, then I will gladly pay this price for more info to feast on.

If anyone actually buys every single book to keep up on all the rules in the game, then, yes, it sucks.

For those of us who have settled on 1-2 armies that we really enjoy the background and play-style of, this is a fantastic idea.

 Manchu wrote:

Swabby wrote:
because I made a very ill informed choice

Seems like even you really know that this isn't GW's fault ...

How is not having enough supply to meet demand anyone but GWs fault? Also the ill informed part was trusting the information handed down by my local stores. Not one of them was aware it was direct order only.

This is directly GWs fault.

It's the same issue they had with Death from the Skies. Not enough of the initial print run. Distributors are being told that more will be available "in the future", whatever that means.

Swabby wrote:
How is not having enough supply to meet demand anyone but GWs fault? Also the ill informed part was trusting the information handed down by my local stores. Not one of them was aware it was direct order only.

Meeting demand is trickier than you appear to imagine.

Also, every LGS has an interest in assuming and letting costumers assume a product is not direct order.

As for me, I also figured I would buy it from a LGS. But I kept checking GW's site to make sure it wasn't direct order only.

So the difference between my Iyanden book being on its way to my house and yours not being available yet really has nothing to do with GW.

If my LGS (or other store) told me they could get something and allowed me to pre-order it I'd expect them to get it even if they had to pay retail from GW or go to eBay and pay even more otherwise I'd reconsider buying from them in the future

If they casually said sure we'll stick one aside if/when it arrives then I'd think damn, it's my own stupid fault I missed out, I should have made sure I knew whether it was direct or not

And just for the record the misinformation doesn't stop at the current situation. I called a GW local store that informed me that I could still order it off the website and have it delivered to them for pickup once I realized that the other local game stores were not actually going to be able to get it. Obviously this was more BS.

I am honestly taken aback that sone of you guys don't seem to have a problem that it is actually becoming frustratingly difficult to purchase through the local flgs.

As far as judging needed supply I have no sympathy for a company that has been around as long as GW if they don't know their customers enough to accurately predict trends. They if anyone in the miniature business should have enough of a clue to pull it off. Saying it is difficult is still a piss poor excuse for failure.

If it's anything like the Death from the Skies, then it will be available to ship again in mid July.

Swabby wrote:
And just for the record the misinformation doesn't stop at the current situation. I called a GW local store that informed me that I could still order it off the website and have it delivered to them for pickup once I realized that the other local game stores were not actually going to be able to get it. Obviously this was more BS.

Yeah, you can do that with any available product. I had that option when I ordered my Iyanden book (or anything else I've ordered from GW over the last few years). Did said GW employee tell you that you could order an item that is not currently available? I mean, it sounds like some crossed wires here.

Swabby wrote:
As far as judging needed supply I have no sympathy for a company that has been around as long as GW if they don't know their customers enough to accurately predict trends.

Well, let's just use you as an example. How is GW supposed to account for customers who claim to be really serious about getting a new book as soon as it is out but at the same time don't bother to actually investigate the product's release?

Manchu wrote:Yeah, you can do that with any available product. I had that option when I ordered my Iyanden book (or anything else I've ordered from GW over the last few years). Did said GW employee tell you that you could order an item that is not currently available? I mean, it sounds like some crossed wires here.

Yes I had a GW employee tell me to go to the website to order a product that was not available. So even their own people don't have a clue here.

How is GW supposed to account for customers who claim to be really serious about getting a new book as soon as it is out but at the same time don't bother to actually investigate the product's release?

I find your insinuation insulting. I am very serious about the hobby, enough so that I realize the FLGS needs to make
a buck to stay open. Normally companies keep game stores well informed about releases so they can sell their product. In this case my flgs as well as local GW employees were all equally in the dark. Normally I find that these folks have correct information and are trustworthy when it comes to selling a product. I spent plenty of time reading
various rumors about the product and not once did I see anything about it being direct order only.

They are a gaming company and should know their market well by now.

As far as going to their website being a measure of interest, why would you even bother when you theoretically know you are already getting a copy locally and it is just a glorified webstore? Not to mention other sites had more information on it.

Swabby wrote:
Yes I had a GW employee tell me to go to the website to order a product that was not available. So even their own people don't have a clue here.

Wait, so you called GW, told them a product was no longer available on their website, and they told you it was available?

Swabby wrote:
I find your insinuation insulting.

I didn't insinuate a thing. I said you are a customer who claims to want a product but at the same time doesn't closely follow its release. I'm not saying your claim is false. I'm just saying, this is the kind of customer behavior that makes demand hard to measure.

Swabby wrote:
I realize the FLGS needs to make a buck to stay open.

Same here. Where we differ is that I also realized my LGS weren't going to have this product in stock. Somehow I knew, whereas neither you or folks at your LGS knew, that the Iyanden supplement was online only. And I can assure you, I only found out by checking GW's website before the supplement was released. That's nothing that you or the guys who own or work at your LGS couldn't do. I can understand you feeling like you didn't need to check because your LGS told you that you could buy it there. But if they told you that then they were making an unjustified assumption.

It sucks that your store thought they were getting a book and you got screwed out of ordering. The same thing happened to me with Death from the Skies sold out in an afternoon. I had wanted to buy from a FLGS, even though I don't play there. Just like to support them when I can.

Nothing to do now but wait or look on ebay, I'm afraid.