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Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
The MTG lawsuit definitely was the event that triggered the Press Gang getting disbanded, but yes, as I have written elsewhere, the Gang was getting unmanageable. It was very large, and there was sadly many PG's that reported events without really putting in the work. It was, as you say, getting difficult to handle. But to call it a myth is overdramatic. It was one of a number of factors that led them to remove it.



It's a myth because Privateer has denied it was a factor. The fans inserted it as being the reason because it was happening at the same time and PP complete and utter lack of communication on it. I don't know how else to really describe it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Turns out when you add "...and the extra time & effort to build a new community" to the price of a Wargame's rulebook those Warhammer ones seem a lot cheaper. Like it or not, that's the reality.


This is a very true statement. That's a huge reason why the largest games in their area (Warhammer stuff, D&D and so on) will always be top dog bar any horrible mismanagement like the kirby era and 4e D&D. But those down trends also show how easily they can come back because how much their community wants them too. People left and wanted to come back. With Warmahordes that's not really the case and it's a much smaller percent that does but privateer really hasn't gone though the work the other two companies did to bring back their fan base (new editions, change in policies, etc).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 20:08:47


 
   
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I think a big part of that is the fundamental problem is their SKU offerings. They need a massive revamp in the way their game is sold to adapt to the changes in the market and I suspect they know that it will likely require some major changes to the game to go along with it. I'd wager they know what they need to do and likely have been working on it for several years now; but a project of that scope could take several more.
   
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The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure

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Retailers only put up with SKU bloat if a game is selling. Infinity will hit a point where their popularity doesn't equal the SKUs and they'll be in a similar bind. I'm not sure how to solve a problem like that where you've got over 10 years of models that are all valid in the game outside of a yearly restricted tourney list like Magic does. The problem with that on a mins game is people spend a lot more time and money on an average army compared to getting an average deck in magic so having them not be usable for a year or two would be a real slap in the face for most I would think.

I'm not sure CB's route of keeping the units game legal but just stop producing them works either. Though I guess Privateer is much more willing to cast on demand then CB so they could just cycle out what they'll put into general distribution.


 Overread wrote:


Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure


PP's resin is one of the few shining points they have as it's arguably the best in the industry for detail and durability. Not really sure if that would be worth giving up for siocast.

Modiphius was looking at it, same type of plastic/molds from a different vender, and they had a lot of issues with detail on humans and bendy weapons which is why they stuck with resin and did some HIPS kits. Privateer stuff is chonkier so it might work better with siocast or something similar then the true scale stuff from Modiphius.
   
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I think Infinity's angle of just randomly stopping production of models only works because the nature of the game and the scale means that a lot of their models are - at arms distance - pretty generic in design (warrior with sword/gun). They don't even make every weapon option for multi-weapon models.

So I think their playerbase is just very used to proxies and the small scale of the game lets it work.

They've also in part got away at times - like dropping a lot of the old Combined army - because the old sculpts are poorer in style. Though dropping chunks of Tohaa and Aleph is more controversial - esp as a good chunk of the recent Aleph they dropped were more modern sculpts.

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 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 00:05:20


 
   
Made in au
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Australia

I previously collected Warmachine in mk2. Was thinking of collecting again only learn how bad things have become in mk3. Mk3 is sort of like the PP equivalent of 40k 5th edition.

Personally I think PP needs to to ditch mk3 in it's entirety and bring back mk2.

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candy.man wrote:
I previously collected Warmachine in mk2. Was thinking of collecting again only learn how bad things have become in mk3. Mk3 is sort of like the PP equivalent of 40k 5th edition.

Personally I think PP needs to to ditch mk3 in it's entirety and bring back mk2.

As a ruleset, Mk 3 is actually pretty good. Where the problem generally lies is how they handled the Themes (too much like 40K 7th Ed) and how toxicly focused on Steamroller a lot of groups became. Then there are the Archons are a representation of some of the power creep that was brought in to encourage sales.

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Schmapdi wrote:
 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.


Cause their kits don't work well in HIPS and the past ones they did sold very poorly (this has come up many times in this thread). Some because design (very top heavy) just aren't suited for plastic kits, others because they were inexperienced and designed horribly hard kits to build. They've been fire selling the HIPS kits via the mystery boxes for almost 2 years now. I don't think HIPS is as needed as people seam to think it is to be successful. It's pretty overrated in my opinion but I also hate assembling models so take that for what it's worth.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 02:13:50


 
   
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Mk3 as a ruleset is probably the best on the market. The balance is also very good. although that is also an issue for some people because it is Theme List - related. People have understandable issues with Theme lists (some faction's preferred list are essentially Soup) and RQ models (as well as the Steamroller focus, but I don't see that locally). I got back after a two-year hiatus (children+house) and am having a lot of fun with Brawlmachine although we haven't gotten around to playing 75 pts games so far.

Schmapdi wrote:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.


Blood and Plunder have been along for 8 years (official release was 2016 but I have a kit from them from 2015) and Firelock is a pretty well-established game in the historical miniatures games scene. They have 3 games out already and did well with 2019's Oak and Iron as well. This is more like doing a KS for Mk4 (which I do not think they will do) than launching an entirely new game. There never was much doubt that they'd try to get into plastics because the game requires 28mm ship models, which they did in resin back in 2015-16 and probably did not earn much on per kit and people scratch built (and 3d printed them these last 4 years) like crazy. I haven't played Blood and Plunder but I really like what I've seen of Oak and Iron.

As people have noted, it doesn't seem like PP's Injection Molding kits were a success and they also had a lot of trouble with their chinese manufacturer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 08:03:01


 
   
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UK

I think the other issue with MK3 is that one thing PP grew on was "rules in the box on the card". IT was a simple system of a buying a model and using the card. You didn't need a "codex" or an App or anything. Simple out of the box and worked.

MK3 tied itself into an online fast change system that fast left the physical elements behind and it became more of a computer game style of balancing. Which has benefits, but also drawbacks and one is disconnection from phyiscal media. The other is fast change. In a PC game that's fine because its all handled by the computer, in a physical game its not.

I think it nudges out casual people and those who don't tie into the online parts all the time. As much as we hate GW's style of book after book their system does work at keeping physical and digital as side by side rather than one trumping the other.

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Perhaps. I couldn't imagine to go back to the paper chaos I see most GW players having, though. All my other non-WmH games (both PP and others) use cards, but the Warroom app is super convenient.
   
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UK

Gw's paper chaos is part their own making though.


Eg recently Slaanesh in AoS got a new Battletome - weeks later they got a campaign book with 2 new models and new rules in that book - then weeks later all the points went up as MK3 hit the shelves; then MK3 also made a few subtle changes to key elements


Basically with a bit of internal planning GW could have placed all that content into the MK3 Battletome. Instead they released a sort of 2.9 edition that then got updated twice very fast after. Even accepting covid messing up some things, its still a mess of paper that GW could have resolved on their own through better internal planning and organisation/communication.


The issue isn't the use of battletome and rulebook and indeed with the Generals Handbook they've given a spiral bound copy of the rules and rules alone (which has the only issue that they didn't increase the font size when downsizing it).

The issue is the messy release pattern.

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 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.



Personally I think they need to take the plunge and gut the range (do we really need eg kossites sword knights and long gunners? Do.we really need all those warcasters?) and consolidate what's left.

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I think gutting is the wrong move right now because all it will do is annoy long term fans, which is mostly all they've got. If they gut the range heavily then long term fans will be annoyed; new fans will only experience that secondhand and it also sends a "we've run out of money we are dumping this" message.

I think the best thing is to do what GW has done for decades - don't gut the range, consolidate and update the range. Perhaps one or two troop choices become multi-part models; update the sculpts of the core models so that you don't have to release any more army bloat. Long term fans wil lstill buy updated models to add to their collection and new fans will see a game getting "updated".

It avoids the issues of army bloat and it means that you retain happy long term fans and have something attractive for new fans - brand new models.


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I agree. Some form of consolidation is the best solution. It does not even have to invalidate models, depending on how you do it.
   
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 Overread wrote:
I think gutting is the wrong move right now because all it will do is annoy long term fans, which is mostly all they've got. If they gut the range heavily then long term fans will be annoyed; new fans will only experience that secondhand and it also sends a "we've run out of money we are dumping this" message.


Sadly you are correct. It's the thing that's needed (the broad and burden of knowledge I the game is detrimental at this point- the game needs to be dramatically slimmed down) but there is no way the company will proceed with this option for the reasons you listed.

I think instead they're leaving wmh as a backwater game, and just keeping it on life support and instead, investing their energies into warcaster etc which isn't bloated or burdened by fifteen odd years of history and which might also benefit from fifteen odd years of 'lessons learned'.

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Astonished of Heck

 Overread wrote:
I think the best thing is to do what GW has done for decades - don't gut the range, consolidate and update the range. Perhaps one or two troop choices become multi-part models; update the sculpts of the core models so that you don't have to release any more army bloat. Long term fans wil lstill buy updated models to add to their collection and new fans will see a game getting "updated".

Except GW does gut their range, but subtly and over time as they stop building old models in one codex's life and then drop them in the next, meanwhile introducing new models to "replace" them (sometimes literally like the Rhino, sometimes figuratively like the Primaris).

PP never got in to that habit. Still, it won't be that hard to do some reductions of Warcasters, if nothing else that there isn't that much difference between some of their variants other than looks, such as Magnus, Vlad on foot, or Madrax with an axe. Just consolidate them up and either provide options on the "card" or just ignore the differences all together.

-----------------------------------------------------

As for the card updates... yeah, those should have been released on a "seasonal" basis along with changes in Steamroller (aside from errata) as a pdf and/or a faction update pack. It would have been consistent at least instead of the jerking around that GW did. It also would have been closer to the steady progression of Mk 2 and Mk 1 which I think is partly what people enjoyed about them compared to GW's style. While getting updates to your faction is nice, previously you would get an update with the next book instead of only having 1/10-1/4 of your army looked at once every 3-4 years.

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GW does gut, but TYPICALLY its one or two models here and often as not they replace them with four or five more so its not as harsh. They also tend to swing back around and bring back old things too.

They have gutted whole armies in the past, but that's often rare. Heck until AoS it was super rare - and AoS was a unique situation of bad management.



PP I think was steadily trying to consolidate; they did it with warjacks going into plastic. It's just their material wasn't popular.

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I mean... they have. Just because Long Gunners technically exist does not mean they're still in the game in any sort of meaningful way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.


Ultimately no matter how good a game is doesn't really matter if there's not a way to sell it. PP either needs to find a way to make affordable box sets or they need to change the game in such a way so that what it takes to play it can be sold in an affordable box set.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 19:38:01


 
   
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This is one of the big things that annoyed me with infinity (and I think N4 releases fixes the problem mostly) as it's an affordable game but the models were not sold in such a way as all the starter boxes weren't playable as a team and you really only wanted half in a list with other models. Yes infinity a lot of the units are good and everything you bought was playable, but just not together.

They basically made you buy a bunch of boxes to build a list for a faction and you'd only use half of what you bought. So they took what should have been affordable and made it unaffordable on purpose. Even had the gaul to call some of them starter boxes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 20:52:45


 
   
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At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

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 Overread wrote:
At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

And even then, Infinity is looking at maybe a Brawlmachine's worth of solos, so updating one's list is about as bad as doing Battletech. Meanwhile, when we look at all the new units from PP costing about 50% more than previously, it's a hard check and quickly has buyers going "no" more than "yes".

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 Charistoph wrote:
 Overread wrote:
At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

And even then, Infinity is looking at maybe a Brawlmachine's worth of solos, so updating one's list is about as bad as doing Battletech. Meanwhile, when we look at all the new units from PP costing about 50% more than previously, it's a hard check and quickly has buyers going "no" more than "yes".


That's true for most lists in N3 but you could have some with 20 models if you really tried. But you're general point is very true. A lot of lists for infinity are 12 models.

Selling more models and increasing the size/scope of the game is a very seductive thing and PP fell for it. I remember as it grew in size people complained but PP always said "lower point games are available so you don't need to buy more" then, as always happens, the official tournaments drifted to the larger scale which is where the community went and still is and they're going to have a real problem pulling it back down even with a complete reboot.

Hell they couldn't even make company of iron a small skirmish game. Bought it as that's what I wanted (no caster kill skirmish in IK) and ya, it's just not that. I think the starter box came with like 15 models per side.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 23:19:42


 
   
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UK

I think the problem for PP is that as they grew Warmachine and Hordes the sales were good, but by the end of MK2 they kind of had a split btween those who wanted a tight competitive skirmish game and those who were moving it toward being a wargame. In the end the more diverse your model range the more models your customers will end up owning and the more of them they want to use. When you've a game that takes hours to play so you might only play once or twice a week, you then have to find a way to keep both camps happy.


GW has done it by sinking money into marketing and promoting separate versions of the game. Warcry, Killteam etc... are marketed as much as the core game. This is something new and its worked well; in the past we had Killteam but it was side rules in the rule book and it wasn't marketed at all really - same as PP it was there as an option but it wasn't focused on.

The other option is what PP is trying with Warcaster - having an active sideboard during the game itself. 15 units per side and you summon in what you want with anything that leaves/dies being re-summonable. You can basically put any 15 you want plus 3 heroes and 16 if you make some of your choices a cadre to get a 4th special character model). So right now you've got a potential max of 19 models.

And its a system they can easily grow or shrink.

It's an interesting approach because it lets you have diversity, it lets you feel you can use more of your collection even if you never actually summon it to the table; it gets a bit away from the super-efficient army choices that can sometimes dominate competitive play (you can now include niche units and just not call upon them if they aren't needed); and it scales itself well with an expanding model roster.

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In fairness to pp, one thing they've always done is push forward and innovate. Back with early mk2, id often argued they were amongst the movers and shakers in the industry - a lot of other companies, gw included, aped their approach.

And while its not for me (yet, at least!), warcaster does have some very interesting ideas - the 'pointless' nature of the game in favour of summoning/unit cap and damage mods based on more accurate hits are very interesting to me.

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If you missed the first game of the Brawlmachine Team Championship Finals, the VoD is up on YouTube for your viewing pleasure! We have a firecracker of a game between Kryssa and Helga 2 to kick things off!

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 Overread wrote:
I think the problem for PP is that as they grew Warmachine and Hordes the sales were good, but by the end of MK2 they kind of had a split btween those who wanted a tight competitive skirmish game and those who were moving it toward being a wargame. In the end the more diverse your model range the more models your customers will end up owning and the more of them they want to use. When you've a game that takes hours to play so you might only play once or twice a week, you then have to find a way to keep both camps happy.


My experience was that MK2 really buckled as the new player experience dried up. There just wasn't a good way to jump into the game. A big part of that is just that Battlebox games, while a great learning tool, aren't really any fun once you have any experience with the system. A lot of games systems fall apart as soon as a player learns they can back up, and Warmachine is really guilty of this without Steamroller. With zero real support for small game scenarios and an increasing push in SR towards less and less room for error at full size that made them increasingly ill suited for anything less, it just got legitimately not fun to play anything more suitable for new players..
   
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I think the other issue with MK2 was tricks with the system. Eg you had move run and charge, but practically everyone experienced never ran, they declared charges that would fail. Things that weren't breaking the rules, but twisting them just slightly. Things that unless you're shown or think that way you might not find out - until someone does it to you a few times.

Granted you can get that with any system, but MK2 seemed to have much more of it than others. Indeed most times you see someone trying to do that with 40K its often a clear miss reading or interpretation of the rules they are trying to bend

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That seems like a trick everyone should learn in their very first game. I teach it in demos. It's pretty standard first turn plan that definitely didn't go away in MK3.

EDIT: Thinking about that a little more, one of the great oddities is trying to decide how much to teach in a demo. In Warmachine while explaining movement I've always had a checklist of Walk/Run/Charge and then explain casters can't spell/feat and run but can do so before charging as a way of getting that info across right away. A game where I had a worse issue with this sort of thing was Guild Ball, where counter attacks deny so many options to the point its really hard to teach with them, but really rough on players regardless of where they first encounter them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 15:12:00


 
   
 
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