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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Sounds like they did the warjack rules really well IMO; they should be wildly impractical for some random party to make use of.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Depends on the Jack. The problem is they have very inconsistent lore around them as you see solo mercs using them (Rutger Shaw) as well as lots of RPG content showing jacks as common farm/labor instruments that are not that hard to get ahold of. On the other hand they clearly take some inspiration from mechanized infantry and how those need to be supported and transported (like you need a group of mechanics that have to follow you around and wagons of coal to run them for more then 10min) in other areas of the lore. So a Strange mix of Rule of Cool and "trying to be realistic" which don't mesh. I think the heavier the jack chasy the more support you needed would have been a good way to do it as heavy warjacks should be more of a pain to use. But lights? Nah.

Then there were the prices (remember common labor device) and it was something like 100gp to run for one hour in just coal alone (Or something similar, I'd have to pull out the books) and people were like "What?" that 100gp would be like a years salary for one person and it costs that to run one for an hour. There's no way anyone would ever us a jack. So PP had to errata some costs of coal to be a fraction of that and I think extend the time they could run off of coal as well.

As for should they be usable by a party? Well, that's a big marketing thing with the setting and there's again, solo mercs with warjacks (and farmers and boat captains, and warehouse owners, and random gobbers) so it's the rule of cool that can exist so of course people want them.

It would be like having a Star Wars game without Lightsabers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/01 17:43:21


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Agreed, heck the wargame itself was skirmish based (very heavily so at the start) which is basically 1 person and a few other troops controlling at least one or more warjacks. Players basically expect them to be a thing.

Now if they put years of marketing behind other optoins like GW has with things like Rogue Traders or Starwars has with Mandalorians then they could make and market an RPG game around those and have it work. Heck a Mandalorian RPG right now would likely do well for SW, but that's after putting a huge amount into basically taking what was 1 character who had a tiny amount of screen time in the original films and bulking it out. Today it would work, in the 80-90s it would have failed or at least been a hard sell.


Warmachine is just the same, all their marketing (even the name) is in Warjacks being part of the game.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Monkeysloth wrote:
Depends on the Jack. The problem is they have very inconsistent lore around them as you see solo mercs using them (Rutger Shaw) as well as lots of RPG content showing jacks as common farm/labor instruments that are not that hard to get ahold of. On the other hand they clearly take some inspiration from mechanized infantry and how those need to be supported and transported (like you need a group of mechanics that have to follow you around and wagons of coal to run them for more then 10min) in other areas of the lore. So a Strange mix of Rule of Cool and "trying to be realistic" which don't mesh. I think the heavier the jack chasy the more support you needed would have been a good way to do it as heavy warjacks should be more of a pain to use. But lights? Nah.

Then there were the prices (remember common labor device) and it was something like 100gp to run for one hour in just coal alone (Or something similar, I'd have to pull out the books) and people were like "What?" that 100gp would be like a years salary for one person and it costs that to run one for an hour. There's no way anyone would ever us a jack. So PP had to errata some costs of coal to be a fraction of that and I think extend the time they could run off of coal as well.

As for should they be usable by a party? Well, that's a big marketing thing with the setting and there's again, solo mercs with warjacks (and farmers and boat captains, and warehouse owners, and random gobbers) so it's the rule of cool that can exist so of course people want them.

It would be like having a Star Wars game without Lightsabers.
Ah, I did not fully understand the larger context.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yeah, the operational limits were the problem. I get the why but it doesn't fit the setting well at all and put a heavy crimp in some iconic portions of the setting.

The real limitation should have been the cortex. Military grade are very rare in the setting so most of the civilian jacks you see are more like MAT 2/RAT 1. The warcaster/jack marshal classes would theoretically have to devote most of their Focus to boosting to hit which would have made for a solid puppet master style class that could evolve into more as the party is able to upgrade the brain of their machine.

On that note, the other quirk in the system is that all magic is tied to being Gifted, which really limits your options if you choose another specialization as none of the classes were limited the same way. It wasn't a huge deal but definitely had an element of a feels bad trade off.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

I played in a fairly long IKRPG campaign, and one of the things that our GM did was to basically abstract out the money. I don't play a lot of rpgs, so I don't know if that's common practice or just something he did, or maybe he just did it becuase the economics in the game were trash. We were a mercenary company, and we had an idea of where we stood and our rough prosperity level, but we never worried about the amount of cash we had. If we ever asked, all we got was "enough" or "not enough for that."

So, I think warjack logistics had a way of only being a problem when they needed to be for story reasons.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think how much a DM deviates from the core rules depends on their skill and on what the player group wants and finds fun. IT's always been my impression and experience that Roleplay games are best run when the DM has skill enough to use the core materials, but also the ability to adapt them to suit the playgroup.

If they find the group wants a warjack and the rules don't work to let them then they can work within the rules to push the player team in the right direction to achieve it; or they can' adapt the rules. If they could never afford the gold costs to refuel just change the cost.


It works in RPG games because the entire game runs through the DM directly. It also helps that they are often game VS NPC affairs so you don't need perfect balance, just fun balance for the group.

It's different to wargames or card games which run player VS player and thus whilst you can home rule and adapt things it can be more tricky at times.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, the operational limits were the problem. I get the why but it doesn't fit the setting well at all and put a heavy crimp in some iconic portions of the setting.

The real limitation should have been the cortex. Military grade are very rare in the setting so most of the civilian jacks you see are more like MAT 2/RAT 1. The warcaster/jack marshal classes would theoretically have to devote most of their Focus to boosting to hit which would have made for a solid puppet master style class that could evolve into more as the party is able to upgrade the brain of their machine.


Honestly I never looked at Warcaster that much, had banned them in my game as we were doing a converted Witchfire trilogy and didn't think they fit, but if they had made the class more like your puppet master (if choosing a Warmachine) I think it would have been pretty cool way to do things instead of the heavy armor warrior mage that also gets a pet that pretty much no one else can get. And if they can it's like half as effective.

Speaking of magic. The new preview has some spells and low and behold it's got non-combat spells. I had spent way to much time last week arguing with people in the IKRPG facebook group about the need for them vs some strange idea that the setting doesn't support their existance.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think that's how a low level Warcaster should have been played. I didn't think it was particularly powerful as a class in the game. My gun mage was way more capable of absolutely absurd things just by virtue of having a boostable gun.
   
Made in us
Uhlan




 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, the operational limits were the problem. I get the why but it doesn't fit the setting well at all and put a heavy crimp in some iconic portions of the setting.

The real limitation should have been the cortex. Military grade are very rare in the setting so most of the civilian jacks you see are more like MAT 2/RAT 1. The warcaster/jack marshal classes would theoretically have to devote most of their Focus to boosting to hit which would have made for a solid puppet master style class that could evolve into more as the party is able to upgrade the brain of their machine.

On that note, the other quirk in the system is that all magic is tied to being Gifted, which really limits your options if you choose another specialization as none of the classes were limited the same way. It wasn't a huge deal but definitely had an element of a feels bad trade off.


Ya, getting military cortexs even from the junkyard is hard when you are a civy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
I think that's how a low level Warcaster should have been played. I didn't think it was particularly powerful as a class in the game. My gun mage was way more capable of absolutely absurd things just by virtue of having a boostable gun.


IKRPG did a good job of keeping the game "realistic". It felt ALOT like full metal fantasy Shadowrun or original Dark Heresy. You are just a chum trying to cut a living and entities like dragon CEO's are just beyond your keen. Same jam with IKRPG. You could be a warcaster and even at epic certain legendary characters were just, well legendary.

It is not for everyone but then again, some people like the grit and others don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/02 18:50:19


 
   
Made in us
Uhlan




 greenskin lynn wrote:
While not the game directly, is anyone else excited about the upcoming kickstarter for the iron kingdoms rpg update.
While DnD 5e isn't my favorite, I am looking forward to new solid books of iron kingdoms fluff


Seen alot of people who are fringe familiar or totally unknown to it getting excited about the IK, which is a good thing. PP as a whole seems to be turning the ship. Whatever they are doing I hope they keep it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, the operational limits were the problem. I get the why but it doesn't fit the setting well at all and put a heavy crimp in some iconic portions of the setting.

The real limitation should have been the cortex. Military grade are very rare in the setting so most of the civilian jacks you see are more like MAT 2/RAT 1. The warcaster/jack marshal classes would theoretically have to devote most of their Focus to boosting to hit which would have made for a solid puppet master style class that could evolve into more as the party is able to upgrade the brain of their machine.


Honestly I never looked at Warcaster that much, had banned them in my game as we were doing a converted Witchfire trilogy and didn't think they fit, but if they had made the class more like your puppet master (if choosing a Warmachine) I think it would have been pretty cool way to do things instead of the heavy armor warrior mage that also gets a pet that pretty much no one else can get. And if they can it's like half as effective.

Speaking of magic. The new preview has some spells and low and behold it's got non-combat spells. I had spent way to much time last week arguing with people in the IKRPG facebook group about the need for them vs some strange idea that the setting doesn't support their existance.


Warcaster's don't start out with warjacks. Most of their early career is spent on using focus for spells and obtaining arcantric equipment that they can put their focus into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
I think that's how a low level Warcaster should have been played. I didn't think it was particularly powerful as a class in the game. My gun mage was way more capable of absolutely absurd things just by virtue of having a boostable gun.


From my experience with the IKRPG warcaster PC's where short of what you would see on tabletop even at the epic levels. Gun Mage could definitely wipe out most at the early levels since most warcasters where like weak tea sorcerors with the ability to use arcantric weapons effectively. The gap got less as the caster got access to more focus, warcaster armor, arcantric gear and such, but even with warjacks...warjacks were basically like having an ogrun on the team if DM'd correclty.

Warjack's shouldn't have military grade cortexes especially newer ones (something entire mercenary companies have a hard time getting a hold of) and you have to gear them up Mad Max style over time to make them any good at fighting. Sure they can hit hard but they got to hit. Cost on repairs, fuel, ammo is high, and limited effectiveness based on environment.

Not that warjacks were useless in the IKRPG but they were tools. You deployed when neccessary.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/19 20:39:30


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




With things starting to unlock here in the UK and Europe (somewhat....) are people seeing any uptick in people picking up the game of coming back after a break?

Post Covid could be a great opportunity for PP and the community to expand the player base not only for WM/H but with their other games. And to fight much of the negative messaging around the game.

Hows it sitting where you fine people are?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

UK is still far from unlocking properly.

I do agree any company that plays their cards right now could see a nice surge in popularity post-covid. I would guess model games will see an odd pattern in so much as what we might get is a drop in sales and uptake and a rise in gaming events. Representing people getting their lives back to more normality; having less hobby time, but also wanting to go out and socialise and play with their armies and such. So it could be a good time for club growth, or perhaps at least for old members ot come back and such. PROVIDED local clubs and groups market heavily to remind people that they exist and such.


However going out is going to be the big thing - restaurants, parks, leisure centres, fitness and all the rest might well see a surge once people can feel safe going out again. At least that is what I'd hope to see

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





The main issue as ever will be PP logistics outside the US I broadly gave up at the sheer irritation at trying to get hold of product in the UK, and Event of not I don't think it'll change

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





North-East UK

Yeah, I think post-lockdown here WM/H isn't going anywhere. Still very restricted on a playerbase. I'm hunting on Ebay for stuff since I've got a very small crowd going. Currently hunting for CoC on Ebay deals. Trying to get a Steamroller kit is near-on impossible unless you want to pay huge postage from US.

Element Games still stock 'em, does anyone have any experience with PP from Element?

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Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Firestorm and Wayland also stock them.

From what I've heard Element's restock dates are just their weekly order date, so it doesn't always mean that those items will be restocked then. Which can be annoying if you want something that they will stock, but which they don't get in for a bit.

   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





North-East UK

I get ya! I've heard some horror Stories from Wayland has anyone had experience with either Firestorm or Wayland?

I just want a consistent retailer who can sell and deliver for me. I feel this is WM/H main barrier of entry as well as the cost for the PVC models is horrendous for what you get imo.

Black Templars: WIP
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Orks: 6000pts
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Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 The Warp Forge wrote:
I get ya! I've heard some horror Stories from Wayland has anyone had experience with either Firestorm or Wayland?

I just want a consistent retailer who can sell and deliver for me. I feel this is WM/H main barrier of entry as well as the cost for the PVC models is horrendous for what you get imo.


A lot of Waylands horror stories were back before they updated the website to live inventory. Back then you'd order something and it "might" be in stock or it might not be so you'd get a shock that suddenly it was back-ordered. Today that's not an issue at all as its linked to their inventory so you know if its in stock or not at the time of ordering. Both Wayland and Element can take a week longer to order things in from what I've seen; I think its simply a case that they process so much stock that they hit the cap from distributors/suppliers, eps on popular lines (eg GW).

Wayland I've generally always had good experiences, outside of waiting on some products that were out of stock, they've always got me what I've ordered. Heck I even ordered something that spent about 6 months backordered (at the manufacture not Wayland) and they emailed me several times to confirm if I still wanted to wait or wanted a refund.


I regularly use Firestorm and Wayland without issues. Wayland tends to get the better deals, but Firestorm tends to have a bit more stock on hand at times so can be a bit more speedy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/07 20:55:55


   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





North-East UK

Ok cheers for the heads up!

Probably going to use Brawlmachine for a while since I can't bulk buy as much as I used too. Looking forward to coming back with afresh faction and fresh opponents!

Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Red Corsairs: WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
Batman Miniatures Game: Mr.Freeze, Joker
Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I also caution against Wayland. While they are "local" to me, i would never order from them. As others said, they used to show available on their webstore but never have it in stock.

Sadly, a really poor interaction with Wayland was what stopped a friend of mine from playing WM/H. Basically ordered a load of stuff, waited months, was told by the store that they couldn't get it from PP, PP customer services said that the store had not ordered anything from them and all the orders they had they had sent out. My friend cancelled the order, pissed at Wayland, pissed at PP and walked away from the game without really ever playing.

Wayland are also meant to be the host location for games for the regional meta but from what I have heard, they often screw them over, not honouring table bookings and so on. to stress that is 2nd hand info. but a number of the local meta guys were starting to come to our local club just before lockdown so we got some of the stories and moans.

Thankfully there are reliable stores in the UK for PP products, thinking of mainly of Firestorm & Patriot Games

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 09:00:57


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





We’re getting ready for the first Brawlmachine update, and what does that mean? Two new scenarios! An updated scenario! Potential changes to the epic list! And a three week beta league starting on May 1 with Registration closing April 30! Come check out all the details in this quick update announcement!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/3/12/brawlmachine-update-11-league-announcement-and-registration
   
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Fresh-Faced New User





Phil breaks down the five Trollblood theme forces through a Brawlmachine focused lens in this latest Brawlmachine Primer!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/3/6/brawlmachine-list-building-trollbloods
   
Made in us
Uhlan




 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Phil breaks down the five Trollblood theme forces through a Brawlmachine focused lens in this latest Brawlmachine Primer!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/3/6/brawlmachine-list-building-trollbloods


How can I win if welps are FA 1 for Brawlmachine? It's like every crook I need to win LOS robs me of it. What do you want me to do? Strategize!

 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

marxlives wrote:
 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Phil breaks down the five Trollblood theme forces through a Brawlmachine focused lens in this latest Brawlmachine Primer!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/3/6/brawlmachine-list-building-trollbloods


How can I win if welps are FA 1 for Brawlmachine? It's like every crook I need to win LOS robs me of it. What do you want me to do? Strategize!

It's not entirely LOS's fault as they didn't change the purchasing method of Whelps. Still, they could have considered an exception in this case. They may in the future, as I hear they are looking to take MacBain off of the ban list, so nothing is purely set.

Providing feedback from games might help in making those changes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 22:22:38


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Yea the FA1 thing for Whelps is annoying but as a troll player i'll take that hit for now because of all the other benefits that Brawlmachine brings and HOPEFULLY we might be able to salvage something of our local player base post covid.

We need to respect that LoS are doing gods work and pretty much keeping the WM/H player base alive in many places.

PP have essentially taken their hands off the tiller and abdicated all responsibility for community development.
   
Made in ro
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Well, it seems the Protectorate is more or less gone in the Iron Kingdom 5e book. That sets up some... interesting implications for the future of Warmahordes, assuming the narrative continues past Oblivion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 11:57:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, it seems the Protectorate is more or less gone in the Iron Kingdom 5e book. That sets up some... interesting implications for the future of Warmahordes, assuming the narrative continues past Oblivion.



That feels very odd post Oblivion. You'd think there would be an explosion in popularity after the literal rapture. I could see them folding in with Khador more, but odd still.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 LunarSol wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, it seems the Protectorate is more or less gone in the Iron Kingdom 5e book. That sets up some... interesting implications for the future of Warmahordes, assuming the narrative continues past Oblivion.



That feels very odd post Oblivion. You'd think there would be an explosion in popularity after the literal rapture. I could see them folding in with Khador more, but odd still.

The Protectorate apparently had a lot of Infernal infiltrators within the Priesthood (which seems really bizarre with how powerful and effective their secret police is) which shook a lot of people, plenty of Menites evacuated off Caen and Durant took most of the rest to Zu. What's left of the Protectorate are is a literal and proverbial ghost town with what few clergy are left desperately trying to hold onto what few citizens are left and fighting one another. Warjack production has also ceased, in no small part because most of the Vassals were executed.

I agree though, the fact the mortal races won and in part because of the Archon's means religious fever would probably be on the up. Cygnar of course is doing absolutely fine and Khador's turning into more of a police state.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 17:10:28


 
   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





North-East UK

When can we get the Iron Kingdoms 5E book for retail?

Also anyone know where we can find out all the lore from inception right up to most recent events? I find the hardest part of getting folks into the game is that they want to know the story but trying to find lore on this game is like squeezing blood from a stone. Anyone know if there's a WM/H Wiki or something just on it's story/setting?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 19:01:28


Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
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Orks: 6000pts
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Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Did all the Protectorate forces in Llael head to the Portal, or did some stay behind?

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
 
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