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Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






I'd just like a nice list of whats happened to named characters
i know a few from models/some pp postings
Vlad-died
Striker-also dead i think
Nemo-soul in a machine

as for the Protectorate, could be the secret police maybe backfired, since if they went dark side, it would still seem business as usual, least that would be my guess
The way they tie most factions to the southern continent of Zu is interesting since its both a solid way to expand the rpg and the wargames and could give some idea for how they plan to expand both
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Striker died, but he did get better as an Archon.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Charistoph wrote:
Did all the Protectorate forces in Llael head to the Portal, or did some stay behind?

They were gradually transferred back to the Protectorate when things started hitting the fan or went to Hengehold. A lot of what remains of the Protectorate's forces just leave their posts once it becomes clear there's not really much of a Protectorate left, or were taken out by the Resistance. One of the Backgrounds for your PC is actually Northern Crusader, which assumes you just started wandering because there was pretty much none left to tell you not to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/03 03:08:40


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






with the bulk of the protectorate moved to the southern continent, i wonder if/when we could see new menoth models to reflect that, much like how trollbloods had the northkin
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Getting an overview of the updated fluff for WM/H it seems like PP really really wants to do the next edition of the game in a post-Infernals world.

With the Iron Kingdoms in ruins, PP would have reasons to remove whole sku's, streamline some of the factions and generally make the game more modern.

But they have neither the money, ability to do it and much of community would go mental if lots of their models vanished from the range.

The company needs to change but can't afford to and the community probably wont let them. Not sure really where they can go really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/03 15:16:16


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The best thing they could do right now is the very same thing GW does - product line update.

They've a lot of older sculpts now and PP could very easily do a MK4 with a big relaunch of the game coupled to updated classic sculpts. GW has been doing that for years - heck some model lines haven't seen "new" concepts of models for decades - heck Primaris are released alongside Space Marines and the Primaris are, by and large, just redesigns of the same concepts Marines have had for decades.


PP could use that moment to create middle of the row boxed sets to cut down on SKU. Not quite the £100+ sets they've been trying with, which work at cutting down SKU, but are very expensive. Instead I'd hope they'd aim for the £30-60 bracket with fewer models per box, but a more affordable price.



I've some old models like the Everblight Angelius- if PP updates it to a brand new fancy metal/resin sculpt (or finally gets a good quality plastic) then releases it with a bunch of others that means I'm happy because my old models are still 100% valid. It means I'm double happy because a favoured model gets a new version that I'm likely to pick up because I'm still a fan; new people get models and get to start playing and stores/stockists have a smaller SKU line to stock and PP can still do individual models through their website.


It's a pattern that has worked for GW for 30+ years and it clearly works. It favours both the established player and the new player. The last thing PP can afford to do right now is throw away what community they have left and scupper the chances of returning community members. They cannot afford to do an "Age of Sigmar Kirby Era" style approach to their game.





Heck I hope that the whole idea of summoning units to the tabletop that they've been doing with Warcaster gets ported into Hordes/Warmachine. I think its the ideal way to have a skirmish level game with lots of niche units and variety, whilst at the same time also having a diverse and large model range. Being able to bring in any model into the battle means that you can have those niche and situational models becuase those niche situations will turn up in games. Things that in "competitive metas" which would never get chosen because they aren't statistically "the best" at the meta. Things that might only come out a few times ,but which would have a fair chance in such a system.

I think skirmish with active in-game sideboards beats a tournament style sideboard that relies on multiple games to come into effect. That works for Magic the Gathering because each game might be only a few minutes long - its unlikely you'll get games lasting 4 hours. For a wargame its less ideal and its nearly useless outside of a tournament setting - where many clubs might only game once or twice a night.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/03 15:46:26


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I generally gave up following the Oblivion lore because I don't bother with Twitter. But, didn't my best gator get his claws on the Harbinger of Menoth right at the end?
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Overread wrote:Heck I hope that the whole idea of summoning units to the tabletop that they've been doing with Warcaster gets ported into Hordes/Warmachine. I think its the ideal way to have a skirmish level game with lots of niche units and variety, whilst at the same time also having a diverse and large model range. Being able to bring in any model into the battle means that you can have those niche and situational models becuase those niche situations will turn up in games. Things that in "competitive metas" which would never get chosen because they aren't statistically "the best" at the meta. Things that might only come out a few times ,but which would have a fair chance in such a system.

I think skirmish with active in-game sideboards beats a tournament style sideboard that relies on multiple games to come into effect. That works for Magic the Gathering because each game might be only a few minutes long - its unlikely you'll get games lasting 4 hours. For a wargame its less ideal and its nearly useless outside of a tournament setting - where many clubs might only game once or twice a night.

That would be hard to justify. Portal tech is pretty advanced. Unless you can provide a way to provide such or similar for everyone, that it would lead to a very unbalanced game.

Oh, sure, some could be expected to create a form of it, either through tech or primal magic, but for others... Unless it is a ubiquitous arrangement on Caenn, or at least Western Immoren, then it just won't fly. Keep in mind that in Warcaster, those portals are at least as available as airports, if not even more common.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

There's a few ways to explain it and the simplest is magic. Warcasters can now cast spells that allow them to open rifts in the world following the huge invasion of the Infernals. These rifts allow the passage of humans and even whole warmachines to the battlefield. Introduce some resource aspect, limits and such and you've got a lore system.

You still build your starting force; you've got all the internal combos native to a PP game and yet you've got the option to diversify and portal in models.



I think its a practical way to keeping the game small on model count whilst allowing a high diversity of model use over time.

It's a practical way for them to stick to metal and resin without having to port into plastics. Plastics would let them essentially "scale up" to larger battle systems like 40K or AoS have, but at the same time come with huge upfront costs and issues. PP has been burned on them and I don't get the impression they are ready for that kind of change again.


Ideally they oculd run Warcaster and Warmachine/Hordes similar ot how GW runs AoS and 40K - use one to test features that get released in the other and then bounce ideas around between them. Giving distinct play styles to each, but also being able to move what works around between them.

   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Ostensibly you could test it out right now, if you have a willing group. Start out with a Brawlmachine list and the put a summonable side-board list.

Still, I still say that either portals would have to become ubiquitous or some extensive tech and magic discoveries would be needed.

Of course, it doesn't require magic or tech to do it. Gatormen, for example could place a pond or river in their deployment zone, and that's how they would arrive. Legion Warlocks bleeding to summon new Warbeasts.

Of course, just utilizing a basic Reinforcements protocol ala 40K would also be in keeping. They aren't being summoned, per se, they are just arriving on scene. Units using Ambush or similar abilities would automatically be put on the side board just as Infiltrators and Deep Strikers are automatically in Reserves.

Another thing to consider, Warcry has you divide your army in to 3 groups. The deployment card says where each group sets up, and even when they arrive (Turn 2 or Turn 3). I don't know how practical it would be with a game that has a constant King-Kill condition, but it could be adjusted so that there is the Core that is always deployed, this would be a Brawlmachine-sized group, and then a 75 point list would have the remaining 50 points split in half and allowed entry at different turns.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






rather then portals, the new rpg book mentions improvements in airships, so you could have troops dropped into combat zones like that for cygnar and khador
cryx could have some kind of undead delivery system

for hordes...um.....new beasts that are being used to rapid move troops perhaps

as for the old model line, they could start switching things over to something like the army boxes, but focused on the classics
say, 3 to 5 old infantry units with a couple solos, call them classic or historic boxes

maybe repack warcaster/warlocks so you get all 3 versions of someone together, or a box that contains x number of basic/advanced casters together
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




TBH I don't feel like games of WM&H happen in the Iron Kingdoms anymore.

It kind of started with absurdly cartoony Grymkin, and was followed by
- iconic units like Gun Mages or Storm units or Skorne Titans becoming obsolete and disappearing from the tables due to the power creep
- nonsensical Riot Quest models everywhere, with their aesthetics aimed at Fortnite crowd
- faction-identity-denying theme forces (Judicator is the best Khador jack, apparently) designed to sell models to a wider playerbase
- Archons, which for me belong in something like Heroes of Might and Magic
- general non-stop escalation of epicness/weirdness

It feels as if just having an electricity-loving crazy scientist fight a flame-thrower wielding religious zealot or a soul-devouring necromancer is not cool enough anymore. You need a humanoid pig warlady on a motorbike fighting a Cryx warcaster, who is actually a Convergence warcaster running a pirate colossal, supported by an assortment of angels and a Gobber flying warjack.

Any pretence of a consistent, coherent and compelling setting that was Iron Kingdoms is gone for me in favour of a random vomit of discordant pop culture tropes mish-mashed together, like in a modern online video game such as Overwatch - a kind of "anti-aesthetics" which I really loathe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/05 10:27:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





A lot of that depends on what you see as the Iron Kingdoms. Honestly, I feel like the Riot Quest stuff is more in tune with the early RPG stuff than where the series grew to. I'm still rather fascinated by how much the art style affects people, as realistically the figures aren't all that different from what came before. Part of that is just that Mercs/Minions has always been the weird faction. Helga2 is after all in the same sub-faction as a guy who gave himself the name Lord Carver, Bringer of Most Massive Destruction, Esquire the Third that's centerpiece model is a giant steamroller.

A lot of the crossover themes have been in the works for ages as well. Vlad recruiting the forces of Menoth has been his story for the entirety of Mk2 and 3. Nemo had the Cyriss emblem in Mk1. That said, I do agree they've got some problems with game identity, I just think its rooted more in the power creep dynamic that's made worse by just having too many themes to address efficiently. Even if they did one a month, it would take 5 years for PP to get through all of them currently.

Ultimately though I think everyone knows that the problem is simply that the game is too big for its own good, but no one is willing to give up anything to make it better. I don't really know the answer either. I suspect it involves something along the lines of Age of Sigmar at this point, and I think if they make it different enough they can probably get away with some kind of "Legends" style support of MK3. Definitely have their work cut out for them though.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

I think the easiest way to handle it would be to collapse similar choices into a single, new unit that will eventually get a completely new model. For example, Cygnar could turn Trenchers, trencher commandos, rangers, longgunners, and trencher longguners into a new Cygnar Riflemen unit. so, use what you have as the new models, but PP will release a hopefully badass new kit.

You could cut the game in half or more through consolidated very similar units and warjack chassis. Bin 80% of the casters and solos, and you can start with a much cleaner playing field.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of that depends on what you see as the Iron Kingdoms. Honestly, I feel like the Riot Quest stuff is more in tune with the early RPG stuff than where the series grew to. I'm still rather fascinated by how much the art style affects people, as realistically the figures aren't all that different from what came before. Part of that is just that Mercs/Minions has always been the weird faction. Helga2 is after all in the same sub-faction as a guy who gave himself the name Lord Carver, Bringer of Most Massive Destruction, Esquire the Third that's centerpiece model is a giant steamroller.


I admit that I am not a fan of Farrow or Gators but they weren't a part of my introduction to the game. As nobody in my group played them then I didn't have to care about their existence. As a result my first few years with the game fluff-wise were more like playing a steampunk version of the Game of Thrones not some kind of post-modern "gotta satisfy them all*" video game like Overwatch or League of Legends.

*-when I think about brainstorming creative sessions for such games I imagine the participants saying things like
-some kids like dinosaurs!
-others like cowboys!
-my daughters like ponies!
-my children love robots!
-and many children adore ninjas!
-monkeys are cute!
-as are penguins!
-let's have snowmen!
-and puppies! Don't forget the puppies
etc.
And at the end everything is incorporated into the game, creating indigestible mess :]
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'm not a fan of binning what they've already got. I think trying to do that whilst keeping the game going is a bit like what GW did with AoS right at the start. Gamers just won't like it and the last thing you want is an irate fanbase because as soon as you've got that even those who are new to your franchise will be turned and encouraged away.


I think if they wanted to drop 80% of the model line into some kind of hyper consolidated system it would be better to say. "Iron Kingdoms had its run, it was a good fun run, so in 2 years we are ending production/going made to order only. However we are launching a brand new game set along similar lines blah blah blah"

Sure you've got complaints that the old game is going away, but at the same time you've got a new game to hook people with that's a fresh start. No hanging on elements.

Of course another approach is to slowly lowre support for one game and raise support on another - etc... There's a lot of ways to phase in such a change.




In the end I don't think gutting the game would work. Sure from a balance point of view it would work and it would "get it back to its roots" but you can't just do that now its grown and changed since then.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I mostly agree, but I'm curious how well it would really work out for them. I've long been in favor of consolidating casters down to something more iconic, but I'm curious how successful their resculpts actually are. Every so often they revamp old caster models and I'll be honest, I rarely pick them up even though they're vast improvements. I definitely see things like Kovnik Joe's sculpt being retired and just being an option for the Winter Guard Kaptain or something like that.

I think the big shift needs to be a cultural one. There NEEDS to be less focus on exact models and more acceptance of alt sculpts that represent less specific things. MiniCrate has already done some good work on this regard. Similarly, they need to find a way to make the limited format work. I think the big problem they've had in the past is just that the formats they make are too limited to gain wide acceptance. 4 casters and 2 themes feels like it cuts out a lot of very modern releases arbitrarily. Having a limited format that casts a wider net while also having room for significant chunks of the game to be retired to an "Eternal" format would do wonders.

I think the limited factions have done a solid job of showing us what a modern take on the game could really be. 2 themes and about 6 casters. The difference is that the themes themselves are a little broader, and the casters tend to have a bit more of a niche and well rounded toolkit. If I was to really push to modernize the game, my goals would essentially be:
- Consolidate themes down to 3-4 per faction, with 2 being pushed as the focus of the new edition and 1-2 left in some kind of "Legends of the Iron Kingdom"
- Pick 6 characters to be the focus of each faction and design a new ruleset for each of them that picks distinctive aspects of their various incarnations.

The big question I have is how far can the game be shrunk. I'm mentally liking its size at 50 points currently, but I'm not sure if what it needs is smaller units. 3-5 models rather than 6-10 for example. Not sure if that's necessary, but it might help keep the game size down while making it cleaner to relaunch with new sculpts.
   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii





North-East UK

I feel like WM/H has many issues but I don't think it's ruleset, nor it's model range is the issue. I think they need to expand upon units to make them feel as though a force could be used rather than a unit that is just forgotten.

Here's the issues I find when trying to get new blood into the hobby:

- Barrier to entry is a very big problem for WM/H. We get it, these models are a luxury hobby and yada, yada, but I feel the price they put out isn't justifiable for the cost of the plastic they use. I find the PVC material really irritating to work with and found the a lot of their mould lines destroy the detail of the models I buy when they appear. While GW is expensive, WM/H don't help themselves when their prices are now as competitive as theirs for a worse material. Either make them cheaper or make it all HIPs plastic. That and we need better distribution for the game.

- The core rules are fine. They need a bit of flexibility so we can make use of more 3D Terrain but that's it. I find the issue of convolution of rules lies in the theme lists. As a returning player, I can deal with Casters, stats and army synergy. What I can't deal with is the volume of themed lists that bombard you with incentives to take. It feels too much like Formations back in 7th ed. 40k. and Strange bedfellows themed lists just feels inherently wrong to me here. That's something to see in a narrative game, or a team game. I don't really want to play a "Menoth" army when all that makes it Menoth is the caster and everything else is Mercs and Cygnar units, etc. If I want to see a weird consortium of characters in a single session I would play the IK RPG and construct a story around it. Either take the themed lists out, or flip them to be restrictive to play lore friendly. In addition if we still need sideboards, I would highly recommend only having a sideboard for Merc units. It feels more lore-friendly to me and allows better tactical thought.

- The mentality of the need for certain units. From what I understand Archons are the new hotness along with Gaspy4 and I ask "Why?". I feel this is more of a community mindset thing and maybe, to reignite the playerbase we all need to take a step away from this mentality if there is need to make the game grow once again.

Personally I think cutting models away from the game will be a death knell. GW could get away with it in AoS and even their flagship Marines because they are the Monopoly. They can give us on a golden platter and the community as a whole would lap it up because there is no real competition that competes to their level. Now PP do the same to a game that has made it own course as a "fall from grace" and tells us they would be taking units away from the game and it will end up with more of whoever is left jumping that ship. When companies cut existing ranges away it only serves to construct distrust between the company and the consumer. After all, why bother investing in an army of something when they could take a unit you just forked out £40 for?

In terms of game direction I think all the needs to be done is to take the game back into its roots. I came for the game to play with Warjacks. People came to Hordes to play with Warbeasts. Let them have fun! I would say scaling back the points for the standard game to be 30-50pts. The rules are fine but the terrain rules need to be better worked on and that's it.

Also make the lore easier to access. There's tons of lore I'd love to know about as well as it's ever growing story but trying to find out lore about this amazing world is like squeezing blood from a stone! You can't hardly find it anywhere, and bits you can are just very, very small snippets.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/05 18:24:01


Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Red Corsairs: WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
Batman Miniatures Game: Mr.Freeze, Joker
Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The problem is all the stuff is effectively beyond the market's capacity to get to consumers and PP's ability to keep modern and fresh. It doesn't matter how much people have if new players can't access it.

I'm all for keeping everything around in some kind of Eternal format, but there's SO much garbage in the line at this point that it's shut out the ability to sell the game. PP needs a way to focus it down to forces they can support and new players can get into.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

The interesting thing is that most of the units in the main armies won't be a problem. Praetorians are all the same body and head, just arm swaps, same with most of the Trenchers, Blighted Elves and Ogruns, etc.

Where we start getting in to issues is in the Characters, particularly Character units, and Mercs and Minions have a LOT of Character in them.

Someone suggested getting all the Warcasters and Warlocks in the same box. Well, Halley, Makeda, and Morghoul, have 3 forms, one of which literally comes with 2 MORE models, of which Halley is 2 more forms.

Then there's Stryker, Vlad, and Kreoss who have 2 unmounted forms and 1 mounted. Trying to fit all 4 forms of Goreshade or Nemo in to one kit could be frustrating OR expensive.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





That's only true if they stick with PVC. I think most people are hoping for resin/metal resculpting. A lot of people expect HIPs, but I don't think it fits PP well at all.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think a big problem is just how dam expensive so many of the kits are. GW gets away with it because of popularity inertia, strong box set offerings, and because their models are extremely high quality at the end of the day. They are plastic, details are sharp and well-realized, proportions are consistent across related models. Meanwhile PP has like, aesthetic schizophrenia with worse materials and at comparable prices to GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Charistoph wrote:
The interesting thing is that most of the units in the main armies won't be a problem. Praetorians are all the same body and head, just arm swaps, same with most of the Trenchers, Blighted Elves and Ogruns, etc.

Where we start getting in to issues is in the Characters, particularly Character units, and Mercs and Minions have a LOT of Character in them.

Someone suggested getting all the Warcasters and Warlocks in the same box. Well, Halley, Makeda, and Morghoul, have 3 forms, one of which literally comes with 2 MORE models, of which Halley is 2 more forms.

Then there's Stryker, Vlad, and Kreoss who have 2 unmounted forms and 1 mounted. Trying to fit all 4 forms of Goreshade or Nemo in to one kit could be frustrating OR expensive.
I think they could go through and narrow each warcaster/lock down to their current narrative incarnation while giving a selection of popular ones a 'classic' version chosen from more basic/iconic versions. Then do a rotating made-to-order system like what GW does sporadically, but make it annual and planned out so people can still access older sculpts.

Rebox units to replace a few grunt models with the champion/standard upgrade, then all of those separate SKUs can be cut. And like you and others have mentioned collapse similar units down into one option with a new kit representing that option while allowing players to use their older ones as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/05 22:33:47


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think they could go through and narrow each warcaster/lock down to their current narrative incarnation while giving a selection of popular ones a 'classic' version chosen from more basic/iconic versions. Then do a rotating made-to-order system like what GW does sporadically, but make it annual and planned out so people can still access older sculpts.

Rebox units to replace a few grunt models with the champion/standard upgrade, then all of those separate SKUs can be cut. And like you and others have mentioned collapse similar units down into one option with a new kit representing that option while allowing players to use their older ones as well.

So we'd be dropping the dead ones like Stryker and Mordikaar, all the Cryx Goreshades, the human Nemos, etc? There are going to be a lot of people who are disappointed in the opportunities, especially if they look up old battle reports or story lines, even more who have this huge collection which are now largely unusable. It's a good way to get long-time players off the game.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






rather then drop them, perhaps move them to being PP store direct only in an, i don't know, legends section
since the fluff keeps going, you could then shift old models/units whatnot to the legends section over time, and maybe update tournaments to reflect that with a sort of pre and post oblivion list or something if that would work (i'm not a tournament player, never have been, so unsure how it would do) Just thinking about how MtG has the different formats
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

There is a HUGE difference between storing Magic cards and Warmachine models, though. Also models often add a personal investment with both building and painting that Magic cards only have someone else's painting on them.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Games Workshop and MtG are the only two companies/games in the hobby that have the clout to kick their customers repeatedly and still have them begging for more. Any other company that follows their lead will fail.

PP needs to fix things, and I honestly don't have the first clue how they should do it. I do know that moving even more models, and iconic units like casters no less, to direct only will lose them the last of their retail presence. And, simply saying 'we don't have tournament rules for some of your models anymore' will lose me as a player.

They created this problem by churning out to many factions and variations in the first place. Then they doubled down with the mass influx of models from Riot Quest. Riot Quest might be a fun game on it's own, but it's pollution to WM/H
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






Mtg was probably the wrong thing to use, it was just the first thing i thought of that had multiple formats to fit people with old extensive collections and people using modern stuff

PP could perhaps release something similar to the oblivion campaign book, but set with a ton of the classic battles, maybe with footnotes or something to show when certain units become available during the timeline or get removed

like after x battle, prime versions of a caster are replaced or something

either way, they need to address army/faction/sku bloat, but whatever they do is going to piss off some group or another

I agree with earlier posting that some things could be condensed together, like the mentioned trenchers, but then you run into them all having different add-ons and attachments
   
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[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think a big problem is just how dam expensive so many of the kits are. GW gets away with it because of popularity inertia, strong box set offerings, and because their models are extremely high quality at the end of the day. They are plastic, details are sharp and well-realized, proportions are consistent across related models. Meanwhile PP has like, aesthetic schizophrenia with worse materials and at comparable prices to GW.


This is a hard issue to tackle as they are located in a pretty high cost of living area, even though they've recently moved to a cheaper area Seattle is not cheap, and cost of materials keep going up and up while average worker earnings isn't so the models seam more expensive when people's pay isn't just keeping up.
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

 LunarSol wrote:
That's only true if they stick with PVC. I think most people are hoping for resin/metal resculpting. A lot of people expect HIPs, but I don't think it fits PP well at all.


I don't mind resin/pewter hybrid, and would actually pay more for units/minis in that material combination vs PVC. That said, I think HIPS would be perfectly fine for a lot of PP's minis. The issue there seems to be cost(obviously), and I think PP shoehorned themselves into a corner way back when they first started doing plastics by going with pvc in the first place. Maybe the roll out for the initial plastics could have been smaller, but done in HIPS instead. 90% of my hobby is painting and modeling, so PVC aggravates me to no end and it's a big part of why I stopped playing Warmachine, actually.

Obviously as a privately owned company we have no idea what Privateer Press' financials look like, but I think it's safe to say that they're not anywhere near where they were 5-6 years ago before the Mk3 fiasco and 8th edition Warhammer 40k exploded back onto the scene. Is more HIPS possible? Probably. Is it likely? Probably not.

In terms of state of the game as it currently exists, and I say this as someone who hasn't played in several years, it feels bloated and like there's just too much stuff. I'm not a fan of theme forces, they remind me too much of formations at the end of 7th ed 40k, where if you took only these combinations of minis you got a bunch of freebies. I personally don't like the Riot Quest aesthetic, it's very "Fortnite" and cartoony to me and lacks the grittiness that I always associated with the Iron Kingdoms.

Really what would appeal to me is taking Iron Kingdoms back to right around when Khador first invaded Lael. Strip it back almost to that time period and that original Warmachine Prime. What that would mean for gameplay I have no idea. Fewer factions? Less stuff in each faction? Maybe.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

You can't just take Warmachine back. Imagine if GW decided to update Tyranids by scaling them back to just Hive Tyrants, Warriors, Gaunts and Zoanthropes and the screamer killer like they were at the start.

Would fans REALLY like that? Would it get any positive reception or uptake? I'm sure some would like it from a sense of making the game easier to carry in a case and cheaper and all those things, but in the end they'd have a huge rafter of models suddenly invalidated.


As noted above its important to realise that wargames do not fit a disposable commodity model and any attempt to treat it like that fails. You can do that with models for something like Dungeons and Dragons because that market has far less general investment in individual models. They are the kind of market that is happy with a cheap prepainted model because it might only appear once in a campaign IF the players take the right path.

Wargamers are much more invested into the hobby side of things. Even historical games have a strong attachment to it. People spend hours building these models, painting them, converting. One of GW's great strengths is a long lasting product.




Also you say that GW can kick their customers hard and still have them come back, yet when AoS landed people didn't come back. If anything they left in droves and took others with them. Sure AoS at launch had some fans, but a good number were simply buying models to then use in 9th age or Kings of War or other game systems. They were no longer GW loyal in that period, they were simply buying cool models and had GW stuck with it the 3D printing market and 3rd parties for fantasy would have had a storm of sales. If anything it would have unseated GW from the fantasy market entirely and left them relying totally on 40K.

GW only recovered because they changed a huge number of policies, attitudes and the product direction and even then it took several years to get to 2.0 and start building the game up and the fanbase up properly.



The thing is what some are proposing PP do is like in an RPG game on a PC when you want to go back to the start of the game. When levels are fast, when new abilites appear fairly quickly, when its simpler and yet at the same time engaging. You can do that in a PC game; you can't do it with a physical model line so easily.
Honestly I think if you want the clock back on a PP game Warcaster is where you want to go. Yes its sci-fi-fantasy but that's where PP IS doing smaller games; where it has fewer choices; where they don't have the same warcaster mechanic system etc... That's where the new fresh start is. It's not taking Warmachine and Hordes back; they've moved on; its taking a new game in a new direction with a fresh start.

   
 
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