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It is one of the post-Heresy mysteries.

We the reader know most Legions had some traitor element, just as the turncoats still had some loyalist elements.

What I couldn’t tell you is whether that was common knowledge outside of the Primarchs, as it may be a Need To Know thing.

But certainly there’s little rational reason why the Dark Angels need be quite so secretive.

Also interested to see what he makes of the Codex Astartes, as he was tucked up in bed for the Second Founding.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But certainly there’s little rational reason why the Dark Angels need be quite so secretive.

That's part of their tragedy: Initially, there was not, but their actions over the 10.000 years that followed now have damned them further, and now they actually need to keep it secret, although that may change again with the return of their Primarch.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

Because Jumpstart and Code One are specifically designed from the ground up to play that way and the Combat Patrol boxes aren't.

So are the new terminators just properly scaled and not just “rescaled in lore for primaris?” And any older terminator model, even the fairly recent chaos terminators and HH termies, are just stuck being small? I know scale creep is a thing but it’s still a bit annoying that the chaos terminators are stuck at the smaller scale for the foreseeable future

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It is one of the post-Heresy mysteries.

We the reader know most Legions had some traitor element, just as the turncoats still had some loyalist elements.

What I couldn’t tell you is whether that was common knowledge outside of the Primarchs, as it may be a Need To Know thing.

But certainly there’s little rational reason why the Dark Angels need be quite so secretive.

Also interested to see what he makes of the Codex Astartes, as he was tucked up in bed for the Second Founding.

It used to be great mystery of the HH, who were the traitors, was it actually the lion and his buddies or was it Luther’s lot. But now thanks to the god awful HH books there are no mysteries left. Just a much worse story for it.

Andykp wrote:


It used to be great mystery of the HH, who were the traitors, was it actually the lion and his buddies or was it Luther’s lot. But now thanks to the god awful HH books there are no mysteries left. Just a much worse story for it.

It was never a mystery. Luthor's Angels = Traitor, Lion's Angels = Loyalists has been one of the definitive statements in 40K since they first introduced the fall of Caliban.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

Because Jumpstart and Code One are specifically designed from the ground up to play that way and the Combat Patrol boxes aren't.

In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

 Daedalus81 wrote:


In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. There's a huge difference between "designed and planned for this specific way to play(Code One has different rules from "regular" Infinity)" and "These things happen to have the same points values".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

I'm not. I genuinely don't understand the distinction you're attempting to use.

See the edit, then.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

Because Jumpstart and Code One are specifically designed from the ground up to play that way and the Combat Patrol boxes aren't.

In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

...have you looked at what's in the currently released Combat Patrol boxes recently, Daed? I'd be very surprised if they were remotely balanced.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So one brother got the sword and another got the shield of their father. What will be left for the Russ etc.? A helmet of the Emperor? Maybe a cloak? Or the toothbrush?

Coral will appear and get the Emperor's cool lightning claw fist

 Dysartes wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

Because Jumpstart and Code One are specifically designed from the ground up to play that way and the Combat Patrol boxes aren't.

In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

...have you looked at what's in the currently released Combat Patrol boxes recently, Daed? I'd be very surprised if they were remotely balanced.

I suspect the units will potentially have different rules to normal or an additional army rule or something.

 Dysartes wrote:
...have you looked at what's in the currently released Combat Patrol boxes recently, Daed? I'd be very surprised if they were remotely balanced.

I know a couple things are true :

1) There is positively no way for us to verify if the CPs are balanced against each other - we don't have their rules
2) GW has been working on 10th for over a year ( if not two ) and is capable of having planned out these CPs to coincide with this update

So then we have just what GW has to say on the matter: "Combat Patrol pitches small preset and balanced forces against each other"

We've already seen two different Termagant datasheets, I'd bet one is Combat Patrols and one is 40k proper.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I like that they kept the style of Terminators but I'm curious if the size bump is accompanied by primarisized marines now also being able to use the armor.

Just properly scaled.

The original Terminators in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed were titchy wee. 3rd - 9th we got improvements, but still on the diddy side,

These ones are looking to be Just Right.

Too tall though pushing 9 feet when should be 8. Their head should be level with primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It reads like the Organized Play advocates in the design team read about MTG's "Jumpstart" packs or Infinity's "Code One" and deciding "Hey, let's do that but worse!".

How is it worse?

Because Jumpstart and Code One are specifically designed from the ground up to play that way and the Combat Patrol boxes aren't.

In what way? GW stated that the CP boxes are balanced against each other did they not?

Devil's advocate but we don't know rules yet so hard to say how balanced. As is they were supposed to be balanced in 9e
...have you looked at what's in the currently released Combat Patrol boxes recently, Daed? I'd be very surprised if they were remotely balanced.

Y'know, when plastic Mk6 came out for HH I penned a theory that GW's plan was to slowly blend firstborn and primaris together until we can eventually pretend the split never happened. I imagined this would take 2-3 editions of Codex: Space Marines at least.

And here we are, not a year later, looking at sculpts that in official GW lore represent both Firstborn and Primaris individuals.

tneva82 wrote:
Too tall though pushing 9 feet when should be 8. Their head should be level with primaris.

They would be level with the same pose.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Y'know, when plastic Mk6 came out for HH I penned a theory that GW's plan was to slowly blend firstborn and primaris together until we can eventually pretend the split never happened. I imagined this would take 2-3 editions of Codex: Space Marines at least.

And here we are, not a year later, looking at sculpts that in official GW lore represent both Firstborn and Primaris individuals.

I'm pretty sure Primaris happened only because GW was afraid of dropping a completely new range of Marines on their customer base. Now that Primaris saturation is high enough, I guess we might see a standardisation of the range down the line.

Don't have much hope for basic MK7s getting the stretch, but maybe Centurions will get a revamp.

On another watch, the new dread has a crotch bolter....

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I really find the Lion a boring character (much like the modern emo version of the DA) but I really like his model

I am looking forwards to seeing what the Lion thinks of what his wayward sons have been doing for the last 10k years - that could be very interesting indeed.

Potentially very interesting but GW seem obsessed with keeping the DA as emo idiots so sadly likely nothing will change.

Billicus wrote:
It's nonsensical having it at 10pm US to fit with the adepticon schedule, there's like 0.01% of the audience there. I've got no idea why they do it.

Just be glad that you are not there in person, and have one of those early morning games, or presentations that you are supposed to be at...

I had a good time watching it, and the pregame show between Discourse and Mordian Glory were some for the ages.

Love the fact that they didn't screw the new edition up by trying to reinvent Terminators. I have a Nid legion that might finally get some attention after 4th edition that I'll add some big boys to, if they shake out well. For us guard players though... I'm glad I held back buying any more Codexes. The FAQ for the Guard is going to be legend. They need to fire the author.

Dudeface wrote:
On another watch, the new dread has a crotch bolter....

No, it doesn't.

I'm really cautious about the loss of the psychic phase.

Thousand Sons had a lot of neat stuff and flexibility going on so losing spell selection could be painful, but then not having to juggle as much stuff will be nice.

Also opponents being able to consistently rely on what my units do will make it easier for them and unintentional cheating less likely.

Net positive, I guess.

John D Law wrote:
Whelp the Lions look definitely quashes the old urban myth that the Dark Angels were the “Native American” marines chapter. 🤔

I always got very clear knights templar vibes, especially with the inner circle, robes, inquisitorial nature, and knightly order aesthetic. The inspiration is kind of obvious.

Black Templars are obviously inspired by the Teutonic Knights, down to the iconography, so the name is a bit of a misnomer. Along with the Bretonians and the Empire, they're actually all pretty on the nose.

Side note, but I adore the fact that the Lion has a shield now. And the classic black legionary armor with knightly plate. I wouldn't mind some legionary armor colors in his honor guard, especially considering how good the Forgeworld heresy era DA stuff looks (the art, too).

It is going to be absolutely fascinating to see where they take the whole backstory with the Dark Angels, now. Because now we have the man, in the flesh.

For anyone who doesn't like that he's "old," put the helmet on....or even consider using the Forgeworld heresy model as a proxy.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
On another watch, the new dread has a crotch bolter....

No, it doesn't.

Go watch again, there are 3 streams of bolter fire from it and a muzzle flash at crotch height which isn't the marine:

I wonder how many people will end up using the plastic 40K Lionel as a proxy in Heresy armies?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm really cautious about the loss of the psychic phase.

Thousand Sons had a lot of neat stuff and flexibility going on so losing spell selection could be painful, but then not having to juggle as much stuff will be nice.

Also opponents being able to consistently rely on what my units do will make it easier for them and unintentional cheating less likely.

Net positive, I guess.

Psychic Phase didn't need to be a separate thing from the Command Phase.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I like that they kept the style of Terminators but I'm curious if the size bump is accompanied by primarisized marines now also being able to use the armor.

Just properly scaled.

The original Terminators in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed were titchy wee. 3rd - 9th we got improvements, but still on the diddy side,

These ones are looking to be Just Right.

Too tall though pushing 9 feet when should be 8. Their head should be level with primaris.

I dunno man, they look pretty level to me. Putting something straight between them the Primaris’s eyes are slightly lower, but the terminator is stood straighter. There’s certainly not a foot in it.

Calling it right now, the new Terminators are NOT multi-part kits. [Look at the waist/belt]