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What if you roll "who goes first" every turn? and instead of roll off of d6 it would be d3.

At the start of the turn
If I roll 3 and my opponent rolls 1. I get to play my part of the turn like usual but if we both roll 2 (3 and 4) both act their turns simultanously but because I rolled higher I get to assault first.

In case we both roll the same dices are rerolled.

What do you think?

I think its needlessly complicated.
There's a reason why the "I go you go" system exists. Because its simple, and it avoids complications.

A good deal of games already do this. I took inspiration from this and put it into my own game (I believe there is a link to it in my signature). It works in some games, but not 40k. The you-go-i-go system is pretty essential to 40k.

I may be wrong, but isn't Epic kind of similar? Where each player moves one (I assume it's "unit" but I know the game is a larger scale than 40k) unit, then the other player moves one unit, and so on? Anyone know how that works out?

Honestly, I think 40k is complicated as it is. There's no need to make it even worse by giving it a more fluid turn system.

Hi folks.
THE REASON 40k is overcomplicated is because it uses the WRONG game mechanics for a modern battle game.(WHFB game mechanic are fine for WHFB.)

The tournament pack for Epic Armageddon is 138 pages.
This includes ALL the rules and ALL the army lists .
(Imagine all the rules for 40k, Planetstrike, Apocalypse, City of death,Flyers etc, and ALL the armylist rules!Thats over 7 times as many pages of rules do what EA does in a more clearly defined and intuitive way.)

The rule sets I prefer to play allow far more player choice in game .(Tactics,)
And so need far fewer 'gimmick' special rules to make the game more varied /less dull.

If you wanted to wrtie a new rule set for 40k based on EPIC rules.
You would have to add a bit more detail to a solid well ballanced rule set.

This is far easier than chopping out great lumps of a skirmish system , and patching it up hap hazzardly with special rules.(14 years later and GW professional team of game developers still struggle with this.)

Most modern rule sets use.
Alternating phases, OR Alternating unit activation, OR variable bound game turn mechanics.

These can be controlled by sequential actions.(Move then shoot then assault.)
OR chosen/random action set selection.(order dice/counters/ cards.)

I could give more detailed examples from other games if you like.
Or even offer BETTER alternatives to ALL 40ks game mechanics and resoution methods .(Meaning more game play options with less pages of rules.)

I can't remember where I saw it. It may have even been here on Dakka, but I did read some pretty inventive rules for basically making WH40k tabletop into a real time strategy experience. I also remember it looking like it could be a lot of fun.

As for dice rolling to see who goes first everytime, that just adds more to the random element of the game and I personally am against anything that takes away from the persons strategic abilities and puts it into the clutches of luck.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
As for dice rolling to see who goes first everytime, that just adds more to the random element of the game and I personally am against anything that takes away from the persons strategic abilities and puts it into the clutches of luck.

In current 40k the turn sequense is determinated by a single dice roll. This is a huge things as the game radically changes depending who starts first. A game between ig gunline and ork trukk spam is heavily dependant on the first turn. If ig starts first he gets to criple ork forces so that they pretty much automatically. If ork goes first he gets to zoom 24" to ig gunline for 2nd turn assault and it's game over for ig.

My system is actually less random because there are more dice rolls. The average expected result is more likely to happen.

I think it would be better to use a more intergrated game turn, to eliviate the importance of first turn advantage.

Alternating activation is quite popular , everything from chess to Epic Armageddon uses it.
Eg.
Player A picks ONE unit , and takes all actions with that unit.
Player B picks ONE unit , and takes all actions with that unit.

The actions are the same as now, move- shoot-assault
However, the player decises how far the unit moves , then shoots if aplicable, then assaults if aplicable.

The only problem with this is the imballance in the number of units that can occur.
Eg 4 'Deathstar' vs 12 'MSU'

This can be adressed by 'motivation ' rolls .

Altenrating phase is another popular alternative.
Eg structured phases run like this.
Player A moves.
Player B moves.
Player A shoots
Player B shoots
Player A assaults
Player A assaults.

OR
A moves.
B shoots
A assaults

B moves
A shoots
B assaults.

My favorite mechanic uses order counters made up of simple actions.Move, Attack,Prep.
Orders.
Advance;- move-attack.
Charge;- move- move
Evade;- attack- move.
Fire support;-prep- attack(Unit can fire move or shoot weapons.)
Infiltrate;- prep- move.(Unit adds 1 to stealth value.)

Game turn runs like this.

Command phase.
Players place order counters face down next to units on good morale.(And request off table support.)

Primary Action phase.
Player A turns over order counters one at a time , and perfoms the first action with the units one at a time.
Player B turns over order counters one at a time , and perfoms the first action with the units one at a time .

Secondary Action phase.
Player A removes order counters one at a time ,and performs the second action with the units one at a time.
Player B removes order counters one at a time ,and performs the second action with the units one at a time.

Resolution phase.
Players attempt to rally units on poor morale , and plot off table support arrival

The only possable way a semi-simultanious turn system could work is if it was similer to how the LotR SBG works.


There are move shoot and fight phases and the order works as follows.

At the beginning of each turn, the players roll off for inititive. the winner gets to do his phase first.

So the order is as follows,

Winner moves his models, loser moves his models. Winner shoots, loser shoots. Then fighting occures in the order the winner chooses.


40k could work like that.

Both players roll off for inititve each turn. Winner moves his units. Then the loser moves his units. Then the winner shoots with his units, then loser shoots. Winner declares his charges, loser then declares charges with any avaliable units.


Unfortunatly this will create quite a few problems, especially with Psychic powers and other abilities with phase triggers.

Hi Grey Templar.
Thats just ONE of MANY game turn mechanics you can use in a modern battle wargame.
Alternating phases would probably be the easiest to convert 40k to.(Player base acceptance and minimal changes to current rules.)
I think Big Squig did something along those lines a while back...
And any change from the alternating game turn mechanic 40k curently uses would need a significant change to the rules.(As alot of them are there to make up for the current lack of interaction.)

Would be funny if it was both players move at the same time, shoot at the same time, and the survivors assault at the same time or something.

Why not roll it off like in lotr the skrimish game. at the beggining of every turn you and your opponent roll off. who ever rolls highest gets to go first. if you tie the person that didn't go first the previous turn wins the tie.

you could do that. would make it interesting.
that could just mess up charges and objectives and such.

40K is very much tied to its current structure, I think.

Bolt Action (which is essentially born of the same mechanics as 40K but with vastly less variance between unit abilities and weapons -- which for the setting is very sensible), decides which units will be moved by the following system:

Players each have one counter per unit.
These counters are pooled and dropped into a cup (preferably not one full of coffee).
A counter is pulled blind from the cup. Whoever's counter it is gets to do one action with one unit (in 40K terms that'd be move or shoot or assault. You could build in a run/snap fire order too and whatever other orders might be deemed necessary).
Once that unit has completed its order, another counter is drawn blind and whoever's counter it is gets to perform an action with one unit.

Obviously this means each turn is 'bittier' and as there are quite significant differences between the two systems with regard to morale and effects of fire, the system would end up having a different feel in 40K. But it's probably worth experimenting with if I go you go isn't to your taste.

Hi Blood and Slaughter.
I agree the current rules are built on an inapropriate game turn mechanic for the type of game the players might expect.

(Using ancient game turn for a modern wargame is not theat apropriate...)

But a compete re-write using more suitable game mechanics would allow the same amount of game play in far fewer pages of rules.
(Based on my experiance with current modern rule sets, 40k in 40 pages is very do-able.)

I dont think random unit activation would be that good a fit with 40k.(More structured vesion might work.) But I personaly think alternating phases would be the best fit.

Alternating phase breaks down when an MSU army plays an army with few units, Random activation seems to me to be the only way to mitigate this.

I think it should work like this:

@Blood and Slaughter.
Dont you have that the wrong way round?

Allan has 16 MSU.
Bob has 6 deathsatr units.

Alternating unit activation...
Allan activates unit 1
Bob activated unit 1
etc.
Allan activates unit 6
Bob activates unit 6
Bob activates unit 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15 and 16......

Alternating phases.
Allan moves his army.(1500pts.)
Bob moves his army.(1500pts.)

Allan shoots with all his army(1500pts.)
Bob shoots with all his army(1500pts.)

Allan assaults with all his units (1500pts.)
Bob assaults with all his army.(1500pts.)

Dust Warfare has a cool activation system:

1) Each unit gets 2 actions per turn. These can be a combination of Move, Shoot, or various Support. (ie, Shoot-Shoot, Move-Shoot, Support-Shoot)

2) Players roll one dice per unit on the board at the start of every game turn. Every 5+ rolled gives the player an Order token. The player with the LEAST orders goes first that game turn. This means that small elite armies tend to fight first, but not always.

3) The Game turn is split into Command and Action phase. Players alternate phases. (Ie, player A command, B command, A action, B action)

4) In the command phase, you can issue a number of orders to your units equal to the amount of order tokens you get. This (generally) uses up a one of a unit's actions. The player going second has the ability to issue more orders before the bulk of his opponent's army gets moving if he wants.

5) The reaction/suppression system means that issuing orders makes your units more vulnerable (can't overwatch on opponents) but lets you put suppression on enemies (reducing their actions and meaning they also can't react).

its a cool game! try it.

Dust Warfare is a very cool game.(I have tried it.)
And its probably what 40k would have become IF GW corperate managment had let Andy Chambers develop the rules with more synergy to the background.

id like to do something like this
1st players Movement
2nd players movement
1st players Shooting
2nd players Shooting
etc i think this would make the game more tactical

Most people would prefer interleaved phases to improve the level of intereaction in 40k.
IF this sort of development was to be done.