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I just got done reading through the new Chaos Codex and i have to say, i'm only slightly impressed...

To me the Codex as a whole seems pretty bland, like a mirror image of the Vanilla Space Marine Codex (only with a bit more spice)

Yeah they have some cool new units and special gear and powers, but to me nothing screams uber cheese or OP. To me i feel they finally made a pretty balanced Codex...

I don't expect Chaos to become a top tier army, I see them now as more of a casual gamers army, one whos more into the fluff then competative play

Not to say they can't be competative as always people can find good combos in any army, but I see they will still have an uphill battle against Grey Knights, Necrons, and Space Wolves.

Idk for sure what the future is for these fellows but the Codex certainly doesn't make me want to start up a new army with them but i will surely take them as allies for my crons! (Can't wait to Vector Strike, Flakk Missile, and Hades Cannon those pesky Vendettas!)

What are your thoughts on the new Codex? Do you feel the same as I or do you have a different opinion on the newset Codex?

My thoughts are that it's kind of weird that a codex needs to be broken or overpowered in order for it to be impressive.

I dislike certain aspects of it (like, why even bother having raptors in the codex when you have warp talons?), but overall I think it's an improvement over the 4E codex.

Because warp talons are more expensive and can't take heavy weapons, but I digress, it seems like it would actually be a good codex, just made smartly enough to have blatant cheese lying around everwhere.

BlaxicanX wrote:
My thoughts are that it's kind of weird that a codex needs to be broken or overpowered in order for it to be impressive.

I dislike certain aspects of it (like, why even bother having raptors in the codex when you have warp talons?), but overall I think it's an improvement over the 4E codex.

I agree it is an improvement in some instances but as a whole I don't think theres gonna be a big changing of meta anywhere, people arn't going to switch over to Chaos for any other reason besides the amazing looking models, the variety of playstyles, and the few really good units they have (just like the Vanilla Book)


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 JohnnoM wrote:
Because warp talons are more expensive and can't take heavy weapons, but I digress, it seems like it would actually be a good codex, just made smartly enough to have blatant cheese lying around everwhere.

I agree with this fully

Lightning claws >

Actually, no. I forgot that LC's aren't as baller as they used to be.

Still though, I don't see the use for raptors. They're a nice suicide unit if you want to pop something, stormtrooper style, CSM have more efficient ways of handling hard targets though.

and warp talons are a more expensive, more situational version of them.

I think Warp Talons are better at their role then raptors are. But I do think that instead of adding Warp Talons, Kelly should have just given Raptors lightning claw/power fist options and blind grenades, as you're right, they fulfill a similar role.

Raptors with LC/PF options... oh my. The thought makes me moist.

My main beef with the codex so far, is there is a lot of overcrowding in some of the Key slots, like HQ, Heavy Support and FA.

I really think Dark Apostles should have been a 1-3 Elite Choice, and Maybe Warpsmiths functioning outside the FoC chart (Although I really like the Warpsmith)

I do think competitive options will emerge, but I think there will be a lot of mixing. Nurgle and Slaanesh came out pretty well, Khorne is good, and Tzeentch got hosed.

We'll as time goes on. I think for a lot of the Daemon Engines, we need to see how well the 5++ and IWND function on the tabletop.

I do think the codex is is really far from vanilla.

BlaxicanX wrote:
My thoughts are that it's kind of weird that a codex needs to be broken or overpowered in order for it to be impressive.

I dislike certain aspects of it (like, why even bother having raptors in the codex when you have warp talons?), but overall I think it's an improvement over the 4E codex.

Y'know what, I would like to see this become a trend with codices. I know, it's GW, so it's a pipe dream, but I'd love a world where every codex is like this, mostly units that are pretty good, not too overpowered, and fairly priced. Every time a new codex comes out, you see the same threads pop up on Dakka - "OMG, this codex is so broken, what the hell GW?" Then a good selection of the gamer populace switches over to the new army only because it has become seemingly more powerful. Why can't we have a new codex come out that's an improvement over the old one, but doesn't absolutely break the game?

Honestly, I'd just like to see more people pick an army that they love because of the fluff, because of the mechanics, because of the models - not because it can sweep every other codex away no matter what the circumstances are. I know there are plenty of people who do pick armies based on their individual likes (tis why I started playing Space Wolves, no matter what anyone else says), but I know of at least one guy at my FLGS who immediately went out and started buying Blood Angels when they made a big splash, then jumped back into Daemons after the WD update, and now is building his own Necron army after the latest codex.

The only thing I'm bitter about is the lack of any true new wargear options for lords. Seems like a horribly lost opportunity.

Still would to use a sonic pistol, lash whip, and riding in a rhino marked for slaanesh.

Meh, I think that ever since the 3.5 Pete Haines codex GW have been scared to death of making a powerful CSM codex. CSM have the misfortune of being a non-SM MEq army with units that are directly analogous to SM, so giving them good options always runs the risk of inciting rage and envy from SM and making their cash cow army look bad. "How come Raptors can get X and my assault marines don't! How come Havocs get Y and my devastators don't! How come Chaos Lords get Z and my Chapter Masters don't!" And so on and so forth. I fully expect them to always deliberately underbalance CSM from here on out, just to be safe.

 Riddick40k wrote:
I just got done reading through the new Chaos Codex and i have to say, i'm only slightly impressed...

To me the Codex as a whole seems pretty bland, like a mirror image of the Vanilla Space Marine Codex (only with a bit more spice)

Yeah they have some cool new units and special gear and powers, but to me nothing screams uber cheese or OP. To me i feel they finally made a pretty balanced Codex...

I don't expect Chaos to become a top tier army, I see them now as more of a casual gamers army, one whos more into the fluff then competative play

Not to say they can't be competative as always people can find good combos in any army, but I see they will still have an uphill battle against Grey Knights, Necrons, and Space Wolves.

Idk for sure what the future is for these fellows but the Codex certainly doesn't make me want to start up a new army with them but i will surely take them as allies for my crons! (Can't wait to Vector Strike, Flakk Missile, and Hades Cannon those pesky Vendettas!)

What are your thoughts on the new Codex? Do you feel the same as I or do you have a different opinion on the newset Codex?

Isn't this a good thing? I'd much rather chaos be a blanced and well made codex than just becoming spikey space wolves or something.

And we don't know that this codex is nice and balanced yet to be honest. Give the tourney guys a couple of weeks with it, I'm sure they'll come up with something crazy.

Hopefuly though you are right and it's more balanced. I know the guys who love tourneys and all that will be upset if these guys arent the next big codex, but I think the rest of the player base will breathe a sigh of relief.

Sides, we havent gotten another Matt Ward dex for 6th yet, I'm sure that will fill everyone's uber army needs


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Edit: whoops, I misunderstood what you were impyling with the underlined bit OP, sorry. Ignore my post, I'm an idiot

 Sasori wrote:
Nurgle and Slaanesh came out pretty well, Khorne is good, and Tzeentch got hosed.

I'm a long time Tzeentch player and I feel totally hosed. Thousand sons actually got worse, could not believe it. Tzeentch psychers are supposed to be the most powerful and instead they have the worst powers in the book. Now there is nothing special about the mark of Tzeentch, +1 invul and crappy powers. In the last codex you could cast two powers per turn and you had better powers like Gift of Change and Winds of chaos. Now I know Winds still exists but thousand sons unit sorcs cannot cast it any more because it is warp charge two. And now mark of Tzeentch gives 6+ invul to troops without one. Used to be 5+, now I know they had to change it because it is cheaper but now it is useless. And the icon of flame please.... Soul blaze sucks.

About the only thing better is lords with Mark of Tzeentch because you can get a 3+ invul.

Not sure what I am going to do now. Start another legion or ditch chaos all together. And this comes from a guy that has 20,000 points of Tzeentch painted for Apocalypse. I've been fighting it out for the last several years getting my ass kicked with a crappy list and this is the reward.... Didn't want something OP but would have like to have a strong themed army.

magnusthered wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Nurgle and Slaanesh came out pretty well, Khorne is good, and Tzeentch got hosed.

I'm a long time Tzeentch player and I feel totally hosed. Thousand sons actually got worse, could not believe it. Tzeentch psychers are supposed to be the most powerful and instead they have the worst powers in the book. Now there is nothing special about the mark of Tzeentch, +1 invul and crappy powers. In the last codex you could cast two powers per turn and you had better powers like Gift of Change and Winds of chaos. Now I know Winds still exists but thousand sons unit sorcs cannot cast it any more because it is warp charge two. And now mark of Tzeentch gives 6+ invul to troops without one. Used to be 5+, now I know they had to change it because it is cheaper but now it is useless. And the icon of flame please.... Soul blaze sucks.

About the only thing better is lords with Mark of Tzeentch because you can get a 3+ invul.

Not sure what I am going to do now. Start another legion or ditch chaos all together. And this comes from a guy that has 20,000 points of Tzeentch painted for Apocalypse. I've been fighting it out for the last several years getting my ass kicked with a crappy list and this is the reward.... Didn't want something OP but would have like to have a strong themed army.

I wanted to run a Tzeentch lord with TSONS as allies to my Chaos Daemons, but wow... not happening now. Kit costs = a lot. Points costs = a lot. And no divination!?

For Tzeentch?

I didn't want I just wanted cool allies. Guess I'm sticking to 100% Daemons. Plus I have a hard time justifying $50 for a book on a faction I minimal interest in and there isn't anything in there that turns heads. I have never heard of such a polarized release on models themselves.

I'm already sick of people whinging about the new Chaos 'dex.
I should avoid dakka for a month before and after every new codex release.

 Testify wrote:
I'm already sick of people whinging about the new Chaos 'dex.
I should avoid dakka for a month before and after every new codex release.

When you hear your favored army is being rewritten by the gent who brought you the broken Space Wolves and the highly competitive Dark Eldar and get... whatever this is... I think that's the source of deflation. It feels like you aren't getting anything super unique, they completely trashed units they knew everyone already had for the sake of model sales (can't prove it, but the defiler? Really? it was almost overcosted in the last book!). The new units are weak, IMO, and feel more like glass cannons across the board instead of the toughened might of a beings living thousands of years to eons in the pure midst of the warp.

Nope, you get AV12 things the size of a barn that cost $66 and can be about as effective as a Dread.

I was looking to expand into CSM, so the book being just okay doesn't bother me. I already have a handful of people wanting my two Chaos DV sets, so I'll recoup my losses and move on. It's the folks with (un)holy sacred numbers units that get no benefit, the dudes with a lot of TSONS, the guys with beautiful daemon princes, or terminators that no longer are WYSIWG... the people who have been the fans who are now getting pooped on.

Oh, and Finecast everywhere. Enjoy the Warpsmith / Dark Apostle breaking to bits and finecast Havocs? Yea... okay...

I'm all for conscructive critisism of a codex, but a lot of it just sounds like hot air to me. I'll go through a few...

they completely trashed units they knew everyone already had for the sake of model sales

Units like Chaos Marines, Khorne Beserkers and Obliterators? All the popular units got slightly better or cheaper. I don't think anyone really took Defilers other than for the cool factor.

The new units are weak

Opinion is divided...

Nope, you get AV12 things the size of a barn that cost $66 and can be about as effective as a Dread.

The Imperial Guard 'dex had Vendettas. 130 points, AV12, 3 twin-linked lascannons, and cost £65, that's $104. Hell, i didn't buy any

It's the folks with (un)holy sacred numbers units that get no benefit, the dudes with a lot of TSONS, the guys with beautiful daemon princes, or terminators that no longer are WYSIWG... the people who have been the fans who are now getting pooped on.

I don't know what " (un)holy sacred numbers units ", but I know that Thousand Suns got a small boost (actually they got a huge boost in 6th edition anyway), and deamon princes are still pretty good.

The termie thing I *hope* is an oversight. Otherwise yeah, that's a big middle finger to the fanbase. But I assume it'll be FAQed in the players' favour.

 Testify wrote:
I'm all for conscructive critisism of a codex, but a lot of it just sounds like hot air to me. I'll go through a few...

they completely trashed units they knew everyone already had for the sake of model sales

Units like Chaos Marines, Khorne Beserkers and Obliterators? All the popular units got slightly better or cheaper. I don't think anyone really took Defilers other than for the cool factor.

The new units are weak

Opinion is divided...

Nope, you get AV12 things the size of a barn that cost $66 and can be about as effective as a Dread.

The Imperial Guard 'dex had Vendettas. 130 points, AV12, 3 twin-linked lascannons, and cost £65, that's $104. Hell, i didn't buy any

It's the folks with (un)holy sacred numbers units that get no benefit, the dudes with a lot of TSONS, the guys with beautiful daemon princes, or terminators that no longer are WYSIWG... the people who have been the fans who are now getting pooped on.

I don't know what " (un)holy sacred numbers units ", but I know that Thousand Suns got a small boost (actually they got a huge boost in 6th edition anyway), and deamon princes are still pretty good.

The termie thing I *hope* is an oversight. Otherwise yeah, that's a big middle finger to the fanbase. But I assume it'll be FAQed in the players' favour.

You mean the bunny zerkers who got crappier and are still slower and only have one vehicle they can be effective in and at 220pts?

You mean the Oblits that aren't LD 10 (pts reduc) or fearless (pts reduc) and can only fire one set of weapons at a time?

You're going to compare Forgefiends/Maulerfiends to the Vendetta? Guess which one wins that fight?

Can go on into how Tzeentch, the great oracle, grants no divination powers to his chosen. Or how they can't overwatch with the coolest bolters. Or how, pound of pound and survivability, a squad of Havocs w/ 4xACs is more killy and cheaper than a forgefiend. The Mauler rolls up into melta range for free. The fiends should have been FA13, then they'd be a lot more terrifying.

TSONS got a minimal boost or slid backwards as they can't overwatch and are still chunky, slow; they are still overcosted to boot. Daemon Princes, the CSM variety, aren't good anymore as they are point sink and anything ST10 instakills it.

The (un)holy sacred numbers are like folks with squads of 6 (the chosen number for Slaanesh) Noise Marines that use a Blastermaster. Now you can't take one until 10 dudes. And Sonic Blasters got Salvo. Hurray? So the God that is traditionally linked to lightning speed grants weapons that only get better when you stand still?

People seem to think a Warpsmith is a good option. He can't repair smoldering craters and he can't keep up with a Maulerfiend's speed.

The Dark Apostles are good for Cultists, but don't have much use, IMO.

I imagine competitive lists will come out of it, but in the end, I don't have the same reaction as to SW or DE and CSM are potentially one of the bigger fanbases for 40K.

Oh, and closing argument... they actually spent time on making new models this butt ugly:



Enjoy!

 Testify wrote:
I'm already sick of people whinging about the new Chaos 'dex.
I should avoid dakka for a month before and after every new codex release.

Or more.. avoid the discussions that are obviously slanted this way or that.

You can mouse-over the title of a thread in the forum to know what's inside, you know?

 Riddick40k wrote:
I just got done reading through the new Chaos Codex and i have to say, i'm only slightly impressed...

To me the Codex as a whole seems pretty bland, like a mirror image of the Vanilla Space Marine Codex (only with a bit more spice)

Oh totally, Noise Marines are just like the Vanilla Noise Marines. And those Forgefiends are exactly the same as the vanilla Forgefiends with spikes, amirite?

can landraiders now take 10 units in term armour now ? i cant see anywhere saying they cant.


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can landraiders now take 10 units in term armour now ? i cant see anywhere saying they cant.

Sebbyp538 wrote:
can landraiders now take 10 units in term armour now ? i cant see anywhere saying they cant.


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can landraiders now take 10 units in term armour now ? i cant see anywhere saying they cant.

Termie models still count as 2 for transport purposes, so I'm guessing that unless the land raider has a capacity of 20 that'd be a no.

What's the problem people are seeing with non-WYSIWYG Terminators? I can't seem to spot anything wrong with them.

Also TheKbob, Noise Marines can take 1 Blastmaster for every 10 models. They Don't need 10 to take one. They could take 2 with 11 models if they wanted.

 Diakon wrote:
Noise Marines can take 1 Blastmaster for every 10 models. They Don't need 10 to take one. They could take 2 with 11 models if they wanted.

That is a very... 'creative' way of interpreting the rules, but unfortunately it doesn't hold up. Taking one Blastmaster for every 10 models in effect means that for every 10 Noise Marines they take, one of them my replace their weapon with a Blastmaster. There is no precedent anywhere that supports your claim, and unless you can, using cited references from the Chaos Codex, show me otherwise, I would refuse to allow you to field 2 Blastmasters in a squad of 11 Noise Marines.

I haven't read the whole book yet, but so far I love it. I'll admit I'm not a tournament player at all, and while I can respect wanting to build a solid list, I love the fluffy options. My Nurgle Lord may not get FNP(sucks, but not really unexpected) but I love being able to take familiars and things like Ichor Blood. I love that spawn are a good options, as I really wanted to include some gribbly mosters along with daemon allies, and cultists, it's about everything I wanted that was missing from the last codex.

The bad things:

No new special characters. I feel like Chaos are somehow this sacred cow that can't be expanded on like other armies. I'm sure there's plenty of players who wish their armies didn't get huge fluff revamps, but I feel like this was a huge missed opportunity.

Terminators again got screwed and while I may end up making a unit after we get an FAQ ruling on weapon options, the elites are so packed I really feel like I'll be taking Hellbrutes and Possesed anway.

Oblits lost all appeal for me really. If they ever go plastic I may get a unit, but really am not tempted by Finecast versions of the current models.

Daemon engines aren't as cool as I'd hoped for, but the Fiends are growing on me. Gonna wait and see if they get ported over to Chaos Daemons codex too before considering buying any.

Basically, I really like the codex, and it has all the components I need to build my Death Guard they way I want. Ultimately though I saved a ton of money by not having to buy anything but the codex. Aside from picking up some models for Spawn conversions I've got just about all I need to add already in my bitz box. So for me at least, it's a good day to be a Chaos player after dealing with 5 years of total blandness.

What's the problem with the terminators?

I can't see anywhere that they've changed other than you need 5 models to have a heavy flamer or auto cannon now.

This is the Noise Marine Rule:

"One Noise Marine per ten models may replace his boltgun with a blastmaster ... XX pts/ model"

So per 10 models I field, I can have a blastmaster. I don't own every Marine codex, but from the ones I do own, the usual thing is if you get to X number, unlock Y. I don't think you can take a squad of 11 and get 2.

Spellbound wrote:
What's the problem with the terminators?

I can't see anywhere that they've changed other than you need 5 models to have a heavy flamer or auto cannon now.

I think it's that you can upgrade their melee weapon OR their shooting weapon, before you could upgrade both. Hence why many are assuming it's a typo.

RegalPhantom:

It's the wording of the option. If you compare it to the Terminator heavy weapons for example

Terminators: "For every 5 models in the unit..."

Noise Marines: "One Noise Marine per ten models..."

I wouldn't field two in a squad and probably won't even bother fielding them at all. I'm not a Slaanesh at all. My Daemon army is Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle. I'm not trying to interpret it to my advantage or anything. That's just what it says.

Ok I've just come back after about a month away in a place where they had no internet... (yeah I know the horror right)

I pop on to GW website to see whats happenin... WOW NEW CHAOS... WOW NEW MODELS... WOW NEW BOOK... Ok I haven't actually seen inside the book yet but the impression I'm getting from everyone is that it's a little underwhelming considering the tone of other recent 6th Ed geared codexes...

And I noticed one all important factor... cult marines became elite again... oh no... so the elites section went from largely underwhelming to packed with all your favourites who are now... again... underwhelming? Is this the general picture?