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HQ
Kharn the Betrayer 160pnts

Troops
10 Berzerkers 9 Chain axes, plasma pistol, power axe, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 265pnts
-Chaos Rhino 35pnts
10 Berzerkers 9 Chain axes, plasma pistol, power axe, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 265pnts
-Chaos Rhino 35pnts
10 Berzerkers 9 Chain axes, plasma pistol, power axe, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 265pnts
9 Berzerkers 8 Chain axes, plasma pistol, power axe, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath, Gift of Mutation 250pnts
-Chaos Rhino 35pnts

Fast Attack
Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

Heavy Support
Forgefiend-200pnts
-3 Ectoplasma cannon

1850pnts

I have anti-flyer, anti-tank and anti-psyker covered. Also: killing marines on a 2+ from a flyer is hilarious. Let's refine it.

I'd swap out the two of the Power Axes, since you're forced to challenge. The squad with Kharn can keep theirs, as Kharn can be used for the challenges.

If you;re set on using Rhinos, maybe try and scrounge some points for Dirge Casters?

The forgefiend is pointless, it dies as easy as a dread and you're likely to knock off hull points from overheated plasma cannons.

Knighty wrote:
I'd swap out the two of the Power Axes, since you're forced to challenge. The squad with Kharn can keep theirs, as Kharn can be used for the challenges.

If you;re set on using Rhinos, maybe try and scrounge some points for Dirge Casters?

Should I not be using Rhinos? I understand they're fragile but it puts them in charge range a lot sooner. Should I just flat out remove the power weapons or make them power swords instead of power axes?

 Ravenous D wrote:
The forgefiend is pointless, it dies as easy as a dread and you're likely to knock off hull points from overheated plasma cannons.

So what would you suggest for anti-tank?

 TheMind wrote:

Knighty wrote:
I'd swap out the two of the Power Axes, since you're forced to challenge. The squad with Kharn can keep theirs, as Kharn can be used for the challenges.

If you;re set on using Rhinos, maybe try and scrounge some points for Dirge Casters?

Should I not be using Rhinos? I understand they're fragile but it puts them in charge range a lot sooner. Should I just flat out remove the power weapons or make them power swords instead of power axes?

 Ravenous D wrote:
The forgefiend is pointless, it dies as easy as a dread and you're likely to knock off hull points from overheated plasma cannons.

So what would you suggest for anti-tank?

Anti-tank doesn't seem as pressing. Heldrake should do well enough - S6 templates and S7 Vectors would do. Not a fan of the Rhinos, since you can't hop out and assault, so you will get shot to pieces.

Even if you keep the forge, you do not have anti-tank capabilities. 4 melta-bombs and 3 str 8 templates that get hot and have a range of 24" do NOT make for anti-tank. I think the fiend is just about the coolest looking thing out there, but come on. For 10 points more you get three oblits that will have infinitely more utility and survivability (separate models, multiple wounds, possible 4+ invuln, etc).

I'd say everything else is fine, but I'd like to see the dirge caster's as well.

I would use power swords on the champions, the squad with Kharn i would also just roll with sword, anti tank, predator with LC sponsons is good, or all LC out is 140 points. Also a Landraider would add some anti tank and nice ride for Kharn and 9 zerkers, which is what i currently roll with.

Well I like the idea for the most part, but I dislike a few things;
* points spent on chain axes, doesnt affect power armor or better, anything with a 4+ ie. Carapace armor, tau, eldar aspect warriors, cron warriors etc, will fold to 30+ atks the unit spits out, save the 70 or so points.
*I like hades on forgefiends better for stripping off hull points and insta killing t4, ecto looks good on paper, but for the 3rd gun costs more points, can strip your own hullpoints off, and good players, ones you will probably see in a competitive setting can easily deny models to small blasts by just spreading out.
*powerweapons on champs all the way now, considering your forced to fight enemy champ, and consider melta bombs, avoid throwing kharn in challenges dies to str 8, and a waste of 7ish atks that would t4 on 2s, kills most of a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I like the idea for the most part, but I dislike a few things;
* points spent on chain axes, doesnt affect power armor or better, anything with a 4+ ie. Carapace armor, tau, eldar aspect warriors, cron warriors etc, will fold to 30+ atks the unit spits out, save the 70 or so points.
*I like hades on forgefiends better for stripping off hull points and insta killing t4, ecto looks good on paper, but for the 3rd gun costs more points, can strip your own hullpoints off, and good players, ones you will probably see in a competitive setting can easily deny models to small blasts by just spreading out.
*powerweapons on champs all the way now, considering your forced to fight enemy champ, and consider melta bombs, avoid throwing kharn in challenges dies to str 8, and a waste of 7ish atks that would t4 on 2s, kills most of a unit by himself

Also seeing as you seem to have a khorne theme your anti will be light anyway.

If you're looking for advice over looks then:
-You're blowing too many points on toys and crap tastic rhinos

-Heldrakes while effective, can be ignored and are a stupid amount of points for 1 marine killing flamer, against other
flyer based armies like necrons you'll get ruckus'd

-Chainaxes are bad, they are far too expensive and circumstancial

I would drop:

The axes, the Forge Fiend, and Rhinos.

Use the points to try and max out your Berzeker squads in size and/or get a squad of Havocs with Flaak Missilie launchers in there. The Heldrake just hasn't been as good at popping other flyers as everyone thought it would be.

Because it's S7, not S10 like people rumored after hearing "it is amazing at ripping apart other fliers!"

If hes dropping the Rhinos how are his scoring units getting to objectives without getting dakkaed to death? Not arguing just wanting to learn

Except that a 5 man squad of havocs with Flakk missile armed missile launchers, of which only four have them is more expensive then the Heldrake which is significantly more durable and reliable with multiple roles it can fill?

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer 160pnts

Troops

20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts
20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts
20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts

Fast Attack
Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

1850pnts

Extra plasma pistols are just to fill in an extra 45 points.

why not take Huron instead of kharn, then you can infiltrate some of those massive zerker squads

also why not use those spare 45 points spent on plasma pistols to give you champs duel lightning claws?

they wont roast your models, and you can throw a melta bomb at things instead of shooting the pistol (i think, i have yet to toss a grenade this edition)

If he replaces Kharn then Berzerkers are no longer troops. An alternative could be a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne, which will also make the Berzerkers a troop choice. I'm not keen on the Icon of Wrath. I know it gives you a re roll when charging but that seems a little expensive. I'd also think about running 1 lightning claw on the champions since it allows you to re roll to wound, granted you'd lose an attack because its a specialist weapon but its up to you.

Keep forgetting cult troops arnt troops now...

I think if you had like 6 rhinos, with dirge casters and those spiked rams, it would be enough that at least 2 or 3 would not die. Also it would be cool.

Otherwise, the 3 20 man blobs sound very promising. You would need to pair that up with Huron though, so you could infiltrate and get them closer. You need Kharn to make the berzerks scoring, or take a Lord.

Also, normal CSM's can be very close to what berzerkers are if you upgrade them fully with CCW, MoK, icon of wrath, etc, and they are a bit cheaper. The only real difference is berzerkers would get a higher weapon skill, but who cares? Give them Vets of the long war and they will get re-rolls in combat anyway. They have real Bolters, they can march from turn 1 and put out shots... and threaten things that are out of charge range or running away. Berzerkers are fearless though, which is nice. If you attach Kharn to one CSM squad he makes them fearless, but Huron is just LD 10... you could get away with making at least one squad CSM.

20 CSM with CCW, VotLW, MoK, IoW =390 pts.

20 Berzerkers with VotLW, IoW =425 pts.

With the points you save you could buy a rhino... take off one more dude and make it a rhino with spikes/dirge caster that scoots up behind your force...also that's got a searchlight on it which can be very helpful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
If he replaces Kharn then Berzerkers are no longer troops. An alternative could be a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne, which will also make the Berzerkers a troop choice. I'm not keen on the Icon of Wrath. I know it gives you a re roll when charging but that seems a little expensive. I'd also think about running 1 lightning claw on the champions since it allows you to re roll to wound, granted you'd lose an attack because its a specialist weapon but its up to you.

On a 20 man blob? Icon of wrath helps ensure you don't roll snake eyes and get shot... also maybe helps you make that longshot 10 inch charge. It's more cost effective on CSM.

on a smaller squad it's too expensive, yeah.

 TheMind wrote:
Except that a 5 man squad of havocs with Flakk missile armed missile launchers, of which only four have them is more expensive then the Heldrake which is significantly more durable and reliable with multiple roles it can fill?

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer 160pnts

Troops

20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts
20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts
20 Berzerkers plasma pistol, plasma pistol, power sword, melta bomb, Icon of Wrath 450pnts

Fast Attack
Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

Heldrake-170pnts
-Baleflamer

1850pnts

Extra plasma pistols are just to fill in an extra 45 points.

Very interesting list, though what do you do if you play against IG? AP 2-3 pie plates kill the zerkers like flies and the only thing you have against them is 2 helldrakes, which is gonna have a hard time staying alive if they are bringing vendettas, hydras and Aegis quad gun.

 Jackster wrote:


Very interesting list, though what do you do if you play against IG? AP 2-3 pie plates kill the zerkers like flies and the only thing you have against them is 2 helldrakes, which is gonna have a hard time staying alive if they are bringing vendettas, hydras and Aegis quad gun.

Hope that your berzerkers run fast enough... and pie plates scatter, so that it only kills half your force?

Just need to deliver Kharn to the middle of an IG line, he will do the rest.

naa for real, it is an uphill battle I know.

The trouble you will have is not being able to charge the turn your Zerkers get out of the Rhino. So potentially they get shot and then overwatched before you even get to assault.
Also, whats stopping your target moving away from you in their turn to decrease the success of your charge chance?

If you really want to take Zerkers I think they need a Raider so they can charge first tunr, but then thats an expensive delivery system.

You do have the icons so that helps.
Maybe consider the dirge caster upgrade also to control overwatch? That will allow you to charge big units with no problems.

Meade,

IG are pains when you eventually get in their lines as when you rip a guard unit a "new one", you end up standing still for a turn and all the lascannon/melta/plasma guns get turned on you (esp. the PCD and CCS) - not to mention the flukey las guns which still managed to take one or two CSM down.

3 big CSM units will only whack through 3 cheap guards each time and your back facing the assault weapons.

 Jackster wrote:

Very interesting list, though what do you do if you play against IG? AP 2-3 pie plates kill the zerkers like flies and the only thing you have against them is 2 helldrakes, which is gonna have a hard time staying alive if they are bringing vendettas, hydras and Aegis quad gun.

 Meade wrote:

 Jackster wrote:


Very interesting list, though what do you do if you play against IG? AP 2-3 pie plates kill the zerkers like flies and the only thing you have against them is 2 helldrakes, which is gonna have a hard time staying alive if they are bringing vendettas, hydras and Aegis quad gun.

Hope that your berzerkers run fast enough... and pie plates scatter, so that it only kills half your force?

Just need to deliver Kharn to the middle of an IG line, he will do the rest.

naa for real, it is an uphill battle I know.

 Jasper wrote:
Meade,

IG are pains when you eventually get in their lines as when you rip a guard unit a "new one", you end up standing still for a turn and all the lascannon/melta/plasma guns get turned on you (esp. the PCD and CCS) - not to mention the flukey las guns which still managed to take one or two CSM down.

3 big CSM units will only whack through 3 cheap guards each time and your back facing the assault weapons.

There's only one guy I know in the local meta that plays IG and he plays a pretty specific list that I know exactly how to counter, which is where the breath weapons on the Heldrakes come in. If I could I'd take a 3rd.

I don't know- If you are looking for competiitve and anti flyer/anti tank you should go with quadd gunn and oblits. Helldrake are ok...not good...but they are not anti flyer

usa_supersonic wrote:
I don't know- If you are looking for competiitve and anti flyer/anti tank you should go with quadd gunn and oblits. Helldrake are ok...not good...but they are not anti flyer

They can be, though. S7 Vectors will be 2-4 hits on side armor, which on AV10-11, you are glancing on 3's and 4's, which is great for stripping HP. It does the double-duty of having the S6 12"+Template AP3 nasty for MEQ. A trio of Heldrakes seems awfully good to me, especially since they aren't competing with a the Oblits for space - as both are pretty great.

Exactly my thoughts.