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Are Kannons still the best choice? I haven't seen much of them in 6th, I'm assuming they got much better with T7 grots

I have asked for your post to be moved to the 40k tactics.

I've used kannon and lobbas and found lobbas indirect fire ability to target hidden/out of los targets to be highly useful.

Moved to Tactics.


Yeah, Grot artillery got a big boost in 6th---T7 Grots in woods is a real pain .

The T7 and 3+ Save and 2 Wound on artillery are great!

Kannons are fairly good for a punch, while Lobbas are now effective snipers, especially against pesky guard weapons!

Lobbas are just not good at killing things. Even if they have good rules to do so.
Kannons are awesome. Their range and being static is a big problem, but this is more of a challenge for you.

I played gunline in 5th with orks didn't see many other playing kannons. I still do not see others playing them, nearly changed my list as I thought it was going to be too main stream in 6th.

Make sure to bring ammo runts, which everyone over looks. Then a reasonable number of crew and a runtherd to keep them on the board.

Was planning on running three with three ammo runts in cover with a big Mek with shock attack gun

MFletch wrote:
Lobbas are just not good at killing things. Even if they have good rules to do so.
Kannons are awesome. Their range and being static is a big problem, but this is more of a challenge for you.

Make sure to bring ammo runts, which everyone over looks. Then a reasonable number of crew and a runtherd to keep them on the board.

Yes take ammo runts.

Artillery isn't static, it can move.

Kannons are great, I found more use from the lobbas though, as on the occasions I've used them, they killed necrons skulking behind buildings.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

MFletch wrote:
Lobbas are just not good at killing things. Even if they have good rules to do so.
Kannons are awesome. Their range and being static is a big problem, but this is more of a challenge for you.

Make sure to bring ammo runts, which everyone over looks. Then a reasonable number of crew and a runtherd to keep them on the board.

Yes take ammo runts.

Artillery isn't static, it can move.

Kannons are great, I found more use from the lobbas though, as on the occasions I've used them, they killed necrons skulking behind buildings.

If you move, you can't shoot. That's pretty static in my book. Also, ammo runts aren't overlooked, you simply have better things to do with 27 points (3x 3 ammo runts) than re-rolling nine or less dice per game.

I'll recheck the book but isn't it a maximum of three ammo runts per squad?

The ammo runts boost from BS3 up to about BS4. It gives 50% more hits, that for 9 points per squadron is good value.
Yes, they are one use only but you only use them when you miss. If you miss all three shots first turn, then suddenly 3 points does not seem many to have another go.

Not to mention the fact that PK nobz are a dying breed, thats 75pts worth of klaws you no longer use......75pt pk, 27pt ammo runts? Im still seeing 48pts left over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
I'll recheck the book but isn't it a maximum of three ammo runts per squad?

Your correct, but you missed where Jidmah is talking about 3x3 kannons. Which is 3 units of 3 kannons that makes a total of 9 ammo runts

MFletch wrote:
The ammo runts boost from BS3 up to about BS4. It gives 50% more hits, that for 9 points per squadron is good value.
Yes, they are one use only but you only use them when you miss. If you miss all three shots first turn, then suddenly 3 points does not seem many to have another go.

BS 3 is a 50% chance to hit, so 4.5 hits on average. BS 3 with a reroll is 75% chance to hit, so 6.75 hits on average. 50% more hits sounds like a lot, 2.25 more hits doesn't. If factor in cover(+nightfighting) and failure to penetrate/wound the model you're shooting at, and those 50% disappear into nothingness.
For example, shooting nine kannons at a rhino in cover, without runts results in 2 penetrating and/or glancing hits. Shooting it with ammo runts would be 3 penetrating and/or glancing hits, a difference of one hit, about twice per game so two additional damaging hits total - on something as weak as a rhino.

 Jidmah wrote:

MFletch wrote:
50% more hits sounds like a lot, 2.25 more hits doesn't.

That is a lot, if it doesn't sound a lot to you it is because of the number of orks shots.
Three lootas on average get 2 hits, now taking 3 lootas must sound a lot of shooting to you. Kannons are st8 and ap3, they are more useful hits anyway.

For an ork unit to get 2 hits at st8 is actually quite hard. You are looking at the equivalent of another 2 kannons worth of shooting.

MFletch wrote:
Three lootas on average get 2 hits, now taking 3 lootas must sound a lot of shooting to you. Kannons are st8 and ap3, they are more useful hits anyway.

Three lootaz get 2 hits as long as they life. If unbothered that's 10-14 hits (assuming your numbers are right). So yes, 10-14 hits sound like a lot of shooting compare to two st8 ap 3 hits. You know, like five to seven times as much.
Do not compare apples to oranges. Or actual models with wounds to one-use wargear.

For an ork unit to get 2 hits at st8 is actually quite hard. You are looking at the equivalent of another 2 kannons worth of shooting.

As above, complete nonsense. A kannon will get two hits in four turns, two kannons in one turn. So assuming the game ends in turn five you get .2 kannons worth of shooting for 67.5% of the point costs. You're actually paying more than three times as many points for each of those hits. And ammo runts remove themselves, while kannons need to be removed by your opponent.

 Jidmah wrote:

MFletch wrote:
Three lootas on average get 2 hits, now taking 3 lootas must sound a lot of shooting to you. Kannons are st8 and ap3, they are more useful hits anyway.

Three lootaz get 2 hits as long as they life. If unbothered that's 10-14 hits (assuming your numbers are right). So yes, 10-14 hits sound like a lot of shooting compare to two st8 ap 3 hits. You know, like five to seven times as much.
Do not compare apples to oranges. Or actual models with wounds to one-use wargear.

For an ork unit to get 2 hits at st8 is actually quite hard. You are looking at the equivalent of another 2 kannons worth of shooting.

As above, complete nonsense. A kannon will get two hits in four turns, two kannons in one turn. So assuming the game ends in turn five you get .2 kannons worth of shooting for 67.5% of the point costs. You're actually paying more than three times as many points for each of those hits. And ammo runts remove themselves, while kannons need to be removed by your opponent.

What comparison do you want? You just stated 2.25 hits or whatever you calculated wasn't many, that number is actually quite high.
How about this:

A Kannon will shoot 5 times in 5 turn battle, maybe less but let's not worry about that.
The ammo runts means you get to shoot an extra 3 times during a battle, that is about half again of the shooting power you'll get from a kannon alone.

Yes, they are one use, so you can not know when or if the three shots will happen. However, you will use up all your ammo runts and you only use their shots when the kannons miss, which happens to be an excellent time to be given an extra shot.

And are Zzapp guns not even worth a mention anymore?

Zzapguns havnt been worth talking about since our codex dropped. They suck.


And ammo runts are most definitely worth the points. Jidmah, I think youre loosing your mind lately, that or the changes in 6th have pissed you off so badly that you are blinded. Im sorry man, but anyway you slice it, having ammo runts for big gunz IS the smart thing to do. Vehicles do not suck, and just because Kanz dont get a 4+ cover save anymore, doesnt mean they are gak, or that spamming AV10 vehicles suck. Whats your deal lately?

If you're comparing lootaz to kannonz thats a weird matchup. They both shoot a lot, but thats about it. They're completely different units designed for completely different tasks.

Kannons:

1. Dirt cheap
2. Dead 'ard
3. Accurate (for orks at least)
4. At their peak in low point games.
5. Has options between a high S anti tank shot or a template to thin out hordes.
6. can twin link when needed, or buy extra T7 wounds at 3pts per piece.

Lootas:

1. Not as dirt cheap, but still cheap
2. Not as dead 'ard, rely on weight of numbers to live.
3. Not as accurate, but make up for it with rediculous weight of fire.
4. at their peak in high points games.
5. Can spam a rediculous amount of S7 shots
6. Unlike kannons, can move and shoot, overwatch, shoot at flyers, and do anything else that requires snap shots.

I'd say kannonz would make an excellent unit for low points games, while lootaz are something you want at higher points levels. Trying to pit them head to head just seems like an excercise in futility.

And of course, you can just go for the best option, and just take max lootaz AND kannonz

Not to mention, I get annoyed when people try to compare units from separate FOC's One is elites, and the other is heavy. Why compare the two?! The debate should never come to that, its either both, or either or. Its not like, for example, if you can only afford to take Nobz or Burnas, which one should you take?

THAT I think makes sense trying to compare, because they are from the same FOC as well as used for the same reason, kicking ass and taking names.

I think people ought to try out the Zzaps a bit more- especially as their 'special effect' (always Shaking) is now a much bigger thing in the world of "Glances don't do fancy stuff". And 2d6 will average out to 7, most of the time, too, so not that much weaker than a Kannon, with the potential to be much greater (and the potential to be terrible, but meh.) Plus, they're AP2, adding to the damage chart when they do get a Pen.

I think Zzaps are more dangerous than people think, in 6th.

 KingCracker wrote:
Zzapguns havnt been worth talking about since our codex dropped. They suck.


And ammo runts are most definitely worth the points. Jidmah, I think youre loosing your mind lately, that or the changes in 6th have pissed you off so badly that you are blinded. Im sorry man, but anyway you slice it, having ammo runts for big gunz IS the smart thing to do. Vehicles do not suck, and just because Kanz dont get a 4+ cover save anymore, doesnt mean they are gak, or that spamming AV10 vehicles suck. Whats your deal lately?

I never said anything about AV10 vehicles. I said that your opponent won't bother shooting kanz that arrive about no earlier than turn three if you have a gakton of fast AV10 vehicles on the board. So kanz increase the survivability of trukks about as much as fielding gretchin and putting them in reserves. The thing to do would be fielding more fast AV10 vehicle - for example MANz in trukks, or any other unit in battlewagons, because actually get dangerous at the same time as your buggies and trukks, unlike your kanz which can easily be handled after your opponent took his time dealing with your first wave. This really hasn't changed from my oppinion in 5th at all. Walkers don't belong anywhere near a list containing trukks. Now more than ever.

Oh, and kanz do blow, for multiple reasons. Not a bad a zzap guns, but pretty much on par with flash gits. They have their uses, they do more than nothing, but still not worth their points or slots.
4+ cover? If they had only lost 4+ cover, I wouldn't mind. In fact, that would have been the right thing to do. But lets make a list of what they lost:
1) 4+ cover dropped to 5+ cover.
2) Kanz no longer get cover by majority. Usually, there is always one kan without cover for your opponent to shoot, even with a KFF nearby.
3) Kanz are hit on 3+ by krak grenades, every second army in the game gets those for free
4) Meltabombs have become AP1 and hit on 3+
5) Two glances definitely kill a kan, rather than a 30% chance of doing so before (immobilized)
6) No more spreading penetrating/glancing hits, one kan takes all until dead.
7) Most units that can't hurt them, can just fall back.
9) No more wall of cover. Putting kanz in front of your boyz provides no cover at all if your opponent focus fires
10) No more ignoring stunned. One stunned kan will stop the entire squadron
11) Overwatch prevents you from charging units you wanted to charge before to prevent them from shooting: meltavets, fire dragons, long fangs, etc.
12) Wall of death with heavy flamers can easily cost you a kan
13) Vehicles can now move 12" further than walkers, rather than 6"
14) Fast vehicles now move 18" further than walkers, rather than 12"
15) No more death or glory against rams.
16) Independent Characters are now hidden in units from kanz
... and those are just off the top of my head. There might be more.

And they gained:
1) No more death to immobilized if you were never hit before. You still die to immobilize if you already lost a hull points.
2) Hitting vehicles on 3+.
3) Random charge length works for them when charging vehicles, units without S5 or higher weapons or slow and purposeful units.

MFletch wrote:
What comparison do you want? You just stated 2.25 hits or whatever you calculated wasn't many, that number is actually quite high.
How about this:

A Kannon will shoot 5 times in 5 turn battle, maybe less but let's not worry about that.
The ammo runts means you get to shoot an extra 3 times during a battle, that is about half again of the shooting power you'll get from a kannon alone.

Yes, they are one use, so you can not know when or if the three shots will happen. However, you will use up all your ammo runts and you only use their shots when the kannons miss, which happens to be an excellent time to be given an extra shot.

You only get to use the ammo runts if the battery actually misses that often. If you hit will all your guns on turn one and then get hit by a pair of LRBT, your ammo runts did nothing. And in order to shoot, it has to be in range in the first place, if everything within range is dead, those ammo runts do nothing again. So it's not extra shots. They are rerolls for three points a piece. A reroll is always worse than an extra shot - even just for the fact, that an extra shot could hit in addition to your regular shot.
Against 2+ or 3+ saving throws (not hard to get from night fighting, characters or going to ground), those 2.25 extra hits suddenly turn into nothing at all. Then you spend the quivalent of two lootaz, a pk, a kannon, a warbuggy, a trukk, or whatever you could have gotten from our codex instead on a 30-60% chance of getting an extra hit - across three units of kannons.

If you got points to spare and no more free slots, getting a few ammo runts is not a bad idea - however, you should not consider maxed-out kannon units as staple. Their cheapness is what makes them awesome, not their firepower. In addition, ammo runts suffer from diminishing returns - the more you have, the higher the chance of not being able to use them. So the first ammo runt is actually better than the second one, which again is better than the third one.

Anvildude wrote:
I think people ought to try out the Zzaps a bit more- especially as their 'special effect' (always Shaking) is now a much bigger thing in the world of "Glances don't do fancy stuff". And 2d6 will average out to 7, most of the time, too, so not that much weaker than a Kannon, with the potential to be much greater (and the potential to be terrible, but meh.) Plus, they're AP2, adding to the damage chart when they do get a Pen.

I think Zzaps are more dangerous than people think, in 6th.

They are not. First, the average is 6.81, as you cannot roll a strength of 11 or 12. Small, but important difference. Second, for every two zzap guns, you can get three kannons, not counting the extra gretchin you need for barbecuing. Third, shaken doesn't do that much anymore, as vehicles can still snap-fire when shaken. Considering the low chances of actually penetrating anything dangerous, AP2 can be discarded.
The math really hasn't changed. There still is a 20% chance that three batteries of zzap guns will not harm a single vehicle over the course of five turns, ammo runts and everything taken into account.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Are Kannons still the best choice? I haven't seen much of them in 6th, I'm assuming they got much better with T7 grots

I use lobbas. They always make up their points, and nearly never die because they are not threatening enough to draw attention (but over a game will definatly kill 10 or so models) and won't be killed in one turn, so people will barely bother. They are a good counter for orks, bc you have to wait till your boyzs make contact but have something to shoot back.

Cannos can be good but bc you need to position them better, and in fireline they draw a bit more attention, which in itself is not bad as they are hard to kill. Cannons advantage is that they can do more hurt, but you run the risk of them becomming useless.

Havn't tried zapp guns, I see their use in specific situations, but then you need to have a specific plan for that, they are not something you take by default in your list, unike lobbas who always have some use.

And offcourse take min. 2 ammo runts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

MFletch wrote:
The ammo runts boost from BS3 up to about BS4. It gives 50% more hits, that for 9 points per squadron is good value.
Yes, they are one use only but you only use them when you miss. If you miss all three shots first turn, then suddenly 3 points does not seem many to have another go.

BS 3 is a 50% chance to hit, so 4.5 hits on average. BS 3 with a reroll is 75% chance to hit, so 6.75 hits on average. 50% more hits sounds like a lot, 2.25 more hits doesn't. If factor in cover(+nightfighting) and failure to penetrate/wound the model you're shooting at, and those 50% disappear into nothingness.
For example, shooting nine kannons at a rhino in cover, without runts results in 2 penetrating and/or glancing hits. Shooting it with ammo runts would be 3 penetrating and/or glancing hits, a difference of one hit, about twice per game so two additional damaging hits total - on something as weak as a rhino.

The point is not how pointeffective it is to hit over the whole game, the point is that you hit in the first two turns.
Can't judge evrything on point effeciency, some things just need to happen/be countered in a game. But I do agree that you don't always need 3 ammo runts, 2 could be enough.

+ Your example 3 glancing hits instead of 2 exactly makes the difference in wrecking or not wrecking the rhino.

Agreed, kannons will only be effective on turn 1 or 2, after that, chances are good they will start taking the piss or be out of range. So my first 2 volleys I want to hit as close to 100% as possible. Ergo, ammo runts are a great choice.


Jidemah- Im seeing your point on Kanz now, and I will admit, I misunderstood what you were getting at with the fast vehicles before. I thought you meant they suck now because of the current rules for vehicles. So I will apologize on that point anyways. The problems with Kanz dont really effective me, because when ever it came down to choosing a walker, I pretty much always went with dreads. Those things can be a beast

T-rex wrote:
The point is not how pointeffective it is to hit over the whole game, the point is that you hit in the first two turns.
Can't judge evrything on point effeciency, some things just need to happen/be countered in a game. But I do agree that you don't always need 3 ammo runts, 2 could be enough.

+ Your example 3 glancing hits instead of 2 exactly makes the difference in wrecking or not wrecking the rhino.

My example only works in half of the games. The other half has night fighting, and your ammo runts turn into... 1.5 glancing/penetrating hits instead of 1, or even .75 instead of.5. The example also assumes rhinos - ammo runts get worse with every additional point of armor and cover.

You are spending points in minimally improving your alpha-strike capabilities, and also turning a blind eye to the fact that ammo runts have a non-trivial chance of doing absolutely nothing, especially during your first two turns:
12.5% chance of all ammo runts being useless during turn 1
37.5% chance of two ammo runts being useless during turn 1
37.5% chance of one ammo runt being useless during turn 1
12.5% chance of being able to use all ammo runts during turn 1
-> That's a 12.5% chance for the first one, a 50% chance for the second one and a 87.5% chance for the third one of not getting used.
1.56% chance of all ammo runts being useless during turn 2
18.76% chance of two ammo runts being useless during turn 2
23.44% chance of one ammo runt being useless during turn 2
56.24% chance of being able to use all ammo runts until the end of turn 2
-> That's a 1.56% chance for the first one, a 20.42% chance for the second one and a 43.86% chance for the third one of being nothing but decorative models.
All of course assuming being in shooting range and not getting one or more kannons blown up.

Based on that I'll slightly chance my opinion though. As you are pretty much guaranteed to use the first ammo runt, that one should be bought. The other two still aren't worth their points. Ammo runts are neither a reliable boost, nor a strong one. If they would actually just make a kannon fire twice, I'd buy them any day, but alas, they don't. Well, the first one is at least close enough.

Jidmah wrote: without runts results in 2 penetrating and/or glancing hits. Shooting it with ammo runts would be 3 penetrating and/or glancing hits, a difference of one hit

Yes, but the difference between 2HP and 3HP stripped is likely the difference between a vehicle being killed, and a vehicle surviving to do another turn of carnage, and requiring TWO turns for the guns to kill it or not.

That's a big difference, practically speaking.

See above. If there is an odd ruin in front of the rhino, and you can't kill it either way. Have a chimera/ghost ark/wave serpent/ instead of a rhino? Can't kill it, even with runts.
And let's not forget that the extra hit is across three units of three kannon. You have to have all nine kannons in range of the rhino in order to kill it.

The thing is though, your making your point, using all the worst things that could happen to mess up the kannon crew, and that simply isnt always the case. Depending on the terrain and such, the table ranges from mostly empty to packed, and in most tournies the tables are pretty barren for some reason. So sure, worst case youd be right, but if its average to best case, then it works in our favor more often then not. Runts, always take em

The collective argument of everybody is that if everything goes right they are worth just as many points as more kannons/lootaz/boyz.
My argument is that if anything goes wrong at all, they are not worth their points.

Ammo runts are not free. You lose something else by fielding them. Every other thing, including a measly gretchin, would at least bring another wound to the table that your opponent has to hit, wound, and kill with one of his weapons. Ammo runts don't do that. If your last kannon dies before your ammo runts are used up, you've spend 3-9 points for absolutely nothing.

Anvildude wrote:
I think people ought to try out the Zzaps a bit more- especially as their 'special effect' (always Shaking) is now a much bigger thing in the world of "Glances don't do fancy stuff". And 2d6 will average out to 7, most of the time, too, so not that much weaker than a Kannon, with the potential to be much greater (and the potential to be terrible, but meh.) Plus, they're AP2, adding to the damage chart when they do get a Pen.

I think Zzaps are more dangerous than people think, in 6th.

If they shook the vehicle by just hitting it, this would be potent. But since you need to at least glance to do that, it's not worth it. about 50% chance to get a decent S and 50% to hit, that's lovely Orky randomness but a bit over the top for my taste. I use Kannons most of the time and while not really cut out for high point games, they perform quite well. Not outstanding, mind you. They kill some stuff and can take a beating, but that's it. I haven't tried Lobbas, but I don't think Orks need them that much due to tons of other options of dealing with infantry.

i love how so many people are argu-er, Discussing whether or not to spend less than 10 points in their entire army, for 9 re-rolls to hit. Other armies spend more than twice that for single re-rolls, sometimes!