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Ok, so at my club we hit a snag.

Picture a unit of 10 guardians: two are in front of a ruin but not on it. Three are hanging two inches back in the ruin itself, and six more are forming a line going deeper into the terrain.

A unit of orks declares a charge at them and take no wound on overwatch. The first model needs 5 inches to make contact and rolls a neat five. They come up, one gets in touch, a few more are close enough to fight and the charge succeeds.

Not imagine he rolled a 10 on the charge roll. The first models make contact with the guardians outside the ruins, but now the rest needs to more through terrain and thus would have vneeded to roll 3d6 and discard the highest, since your guys moved through difficult terrain.

So how do we resolve that?

If the squad has to move through terrain, than they have to roll for it.

 Sephyr wrote:
So how do we resolve that?

Time travel.

You have to roll for difficult terrain if you're going through difficult terrain, but you don't know if you're going through difficult terrain until after you've rolled. Since which model you're required to charge at can change depending on far you go, even the direction individual models go change based on the distance! Even assuming that you'd go 12" can sometimes result in not rolling for terrain when you do have to. So, you really need time travel, or it's equivalent.

Luckily, it's equivalent is easily at hand: Roll the two dice, and if the result brings you into terrain, roll a third die, add it to the other two, and drop the highest.

If you have re-rolls available from Fleet, Jump packs, or whatever, roll all three dice with the terrain die a separate color, make any re-rolls, then determine if the unit would go through terrain on two dice, and if so, use all three dice.

Just quoting the Errata'd "Charging Through Difficult Terrain" (p22)...

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

In the OPs scenario, no models in the charging unit have to move through difficult terrain to reach the enemy, so the precondition is not met, and the 2D6 Charge Range stands. Contrast that with the picture on p22, where the 2 models at the top have to move through terrain to reach the enemy by the shortest path.

Obviously, this would mean that if you roll well enough on the 2D6, some of the models are going to charge into the ruins without taking a Difficult Terrain Test, which some could see as a problem (although p90 seems to makes it clear that Charging through Difficult terrain is different to Moving through it).

Snapshot wrote:
Just quoting the Errata'd "Charging Through Difficult Terrain" (p22)...

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

In the OPs scenario, no models in the charging unit have to move through difficult terrain to reach the enemy, so the precondition is not met, and the 2D6 Charge Range stands. Contrast that with the picture on p22, where the 2 models at the top have to move through terrain to reach the enemy by the shortest path.

Obviously, this would mean that if you roll well enough on the 2D6, some of the models are going to charge into the ruins without taking a Difficult Terrain Test, which some could see as a problem (although p90 seems to makes it clear that Charging through Difficult terrain is different to Moving through it).

Except you have to take the shortest distance possible to either get in b2b contact, if that's not possible then with 2" of someone already in b2b, if that's not possible then as close as you can. It has to be in that order, so if someone would have to move through the cover to get into b2b with someone then they'd have to roll for difficult terrain.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
Just quoting the Errata'd "Charging Through Difficult Terrain" (p22)...

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

In the OPs scenario, no models in the charging unit have to move through difficult terrain to reach the enemy, so the precondition is not met, and the 2D6 Charge Range stands. Contrast that with the picture on p22, where the 2 models at the top have to move through terrain to reach the enemy by the shortest path.

Obviously, this would mean that if you roll well enough on the 2D6, some of the models are going to charge into the ruins without taking a Difficult Terrain Test, which some could see as a problem (although p90 seems to makes it clear that Charging through Difficult terrain is different to Moving through it).

Except you have to take the shortest distance possible to either get in b2b contact, if that's not possible then with 2" of someone already in b2b, if that's not possible then as close as you can. It has to be in that order, so if someone would have to move through the cover to get into b2b with someone then they'd have to roll for difficult terrain.

I'm just saying what I think the rules say about calculating Charge Range. p90 seems to acknowledge that DT in a charge is handled differently. Once you've determined the Charge Range per p22, make Charge Move as if the terrain wasn't there.

This is massively annoying rule and I hate it. It would be far simpler if difficult terrain would be handled model by model basis, and you only rolled the extra DT die for the models who actually move to the difficult terrain.

 Crimson wrote:
This is massively annoying rule and I hate it. It would be far simpler if difficult terrain would be handled model by model basis, and you only rolled the extra DT die for the models who actually move to the difficult terrain.

Yea, because adding more dice rolling to the game sounds awesome

To keep it simpler, is why the ruling is as it is.

It makes sense to me, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, etc, etc.

I think since they have clarified that everything is in fixed steps. You can't go back and change the roll. I think in this case it would apply if anyone in the unit did not have a straight path without difficult terrain impacting their assault move. So if one model was behind some area terrain but was not the closest then you would need to test. However i think if any of them moved through difficult then they would strike last.

The problem we are encountering is GW is trying to blend model specific rules with unit wide rules.
The whole unit runs the same speed, even if only 1 model is effected, at the same time only the model that entered the area gets the reduction to I...

I'm kinda curious to see what the dakkanauts rule on this one as well cause I think there is something very flawed in the idea that you become too successful in the charge so now you fail, tell me how that makes the slightest bit of sense.
I think that maybee you should be allowed to decide before you charge(like when moving into terrain) whether or not you want to roll the extra dice for terrain charge. If you elect not to roll the extra dice you can't go into the terrain, similar to movement mechanics, similar to focus fire mechanics, so why not?!

This same issue came up with my gaming group. Here's what dakka had to say:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460818.page

I'd say that if there is any chance one of the charging models may have to cross difficult terrain then you should roll the 3D6 either way, Point being if you have models that are within 12" and they will need to cross difficult terrain to follow the assault rules of having to get in to BTB with as many models as possible then you should roll. In the situation presented I'd roll difficult terrain as all models are reasonably within 12" of the assaulting unit. If the assaulting unit only had one or two within 12" of the first two guardians then no, I wouldn't roll 3D6 as they are not having or able to cross difficult terrain.

I understand why this is causing some anxiety, but remember we are not in the Movement phase, and we are not operating under the normal Movement rules for Difficult Terrain. We are in the Charge phase, and a regular DT test is not being called for. We are trying to work out the Charge Range, and the rule says that if at least one model MUST pass through DT then we roll 3D6 to determine the range. The fact that a model MIGHT end up passing through DT on its way to an enemy is neither here nor there.

At least that's the way I read it.

But you don't know whether they MUST before you have already rolled!

 Crimson wrote:
But you don't know whether they MUST before you have already rolled!

You do if you read the rule literally. For every model in your charging unit, find the shortest path to the enemy - this would be a straightline to the nearest enemy model (probably have to go around impassable terrain). Ignore the fact that your chap in the second rank is probably going to have to swing around the back to get in b2b with an unengaged model during the actual Charge Move - just go straight at 'em. If any one of those shortest paths crosses Difficult Terrain, roll 3D6 + select lowest 2, otherwise roll 2D6 (and that is the end of DT testing for this assault).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the OPs original scenario - every one of the models in the charging unit would probably have drawn a straight line to one of the two models out the front of the ruins, therefore, he rolls 2D6 for the charge, and tally-ho!

But the thing is, you don't know the path you would HAVE to take until you know how many inches of movement you got. And if you have too many, you end up with too few. You ca be rewarded for rolling poorly, in a way, which is a rather weird rulse set.

"Phew, I rolled just the 4 I needed to make contact and avoid having to go all they way back and into the ruins!"

"Damn! I rolled a 12 and now my charge sucks"

It would not be an issue if you could move your guys into contact at your discretion, but that 's not the case.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


It makes sense to me, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, etc, etc.

Three guys walking 3 inches on flat terrain into contact failing because two guys moved too much to reach the back lines makes no sense. It's like saying a lascannon right in front in a Devastator unit has no range on a target because a multi-melta at the back can't reach it.

 Sephyr wrote:


But the thing is, you don't know the path you would HAVE to take until you know how many inches of movement you got. And if you have too many, you end up with too few. You ca be rewarded for rolling poorly, in a way, which is a rather weird rulse set.

"Phew, I rolled just the 4 I needed to make contact and avoid having to go all they way back and into the ruins!"

"Damn! I rolled a 12 and now my charge sucks"

It would not be an issue if you could move your guys into contact at your discretion, but that 's not the case.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


It makes sense to me, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, etc, etc.

Three guys walking 3 inches on flat terrain into contact failing because two guys moved too much to reach the back lines makes no sense. It's like saying a lascannon right in front in a Devastator unit has no range on a target because a multi-melta at the back can't reach it.

You have to assume maximum range. It doesn't matter what roll you WANT to avoid terrain, you "must" go all out when charging. You would have to assume as much for your charge range, and if at any point with any roll result you would have to go through difficult terrain then you have to roll for it.

Don't try to make sense of 40k rules either, it never ends well. Heh.

 Kevin949 wrote:

You have to assume maximum range. It doesn't matter what roll you WANT to avoid terrain, you "must" go all out when charging. You would have to assume as much for your charge range, and if at any point with any roll result you would have to go through difficult terrain then you have to roll for it.

Don't try to make sense of 40k rules either, it never ends well. Heh.

This.

And double the last line.

So if by moving 12 inches you would end up in difficult terrain you have to roll, even though you probably won't actually move that much?

 Crimson wrote:
So if by moving 12 inches you would end up in difficult terrain you have to roll, even though you probably won't actually move that much?

Can you potentially charge a model 12" away? If the answer is yes, then why wouldn't you roll for difficult terrain?

Yes. If any possible roll would result in one or more models passing through difficult in order to maximize contact by the shortest possible route, then you'll have to roll 3d6.

This is almost the exact same issue we had in 5th; only now it happens even more.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yes. If any possible roll would result in one or more models passing through difficult in order to maximize contact by the shortest possible route, then you'll have to roll 3d6.

This is almost the exact same issue we had in 5th; only now it happens even more.

Then you have to analyse all the possible movement patterns with all distances from 2 to 12 inches before you can determine whether to roll for difficult terrain.

Yup. It can potentially be a PITA depending on the exact positioning of units, but most of the time it's obvious with a quick glance. When in doubt, I recommend rolling the 3d6.

Snapshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But you don't know whether they MUST before you have already rolled!

You do if you read the rule literally. For every model in your charging unit, find the shortest path to the enemy - this would be a straightline to the nearest enemy model (probably have to go around impassable terrain). Ignore the fact that your chap in the second rank is probably going to have to swing around the back to get in b2b with an unengaged model during the actual Charge Move - just go straight at 'em. If any one of those shortest paths crosses Difficult Terrain, roll 3D6 + select lowest 2, otherwise roll 2D6 (and that is the end of DT testing for this assault).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the OPs original scenario - every one of the models in the charging unit would probably have drawn a straight line to one of the two models out the front of the ruins, therefore, he rolls 2D6 for the charge, and tally-ho!

This. It makes the most sense overall and can be argued RAW wise. Otherwise your either rolling a die after the fact or penalizing a charge that does not need to be penalized.

So there actually is no consensus on how this is supposed to work?

This is an easy solution IMO- the closest model charges to the closest model. If it happens that the 1 solo closest model is out of terrain then only 2 dice are rolled for the entire unit. As far as the I goes I would say it is a grey area and would prob say that whomever goes into the actual terrain would have I affected... Just like calvary if you step into terrain you take a dangerous test for specific models.

Although the rules does not specify on the grey area I described.

 Crimson wrote:
This is almost the exact same issue we had in 5th; only now it happens even more.

Then you have to analyse all the possible movement patterns with all distances from 2 to 12 inches before you can determine whether to roll for difficult terrain.

This increases the number of charges through terrain a lot. Basically, if any model in the target unit is within 1 inch of terrain...3d6 it is.

Oh well. I guess CC was in need of another nerf. I heard an ork mob of 30 killed almost 3 scouts in terrain the other day! Good thing the devs are on the case.

 Crimson wrote:
So if by moving 12 inches you would end up in difficult terrain you have to roll, even though you probably won't actually move that much?

only problem here is that in 5th anything that effected 1 model effects the entire squad, now with 6th almost everything is taken on a model by model basis, no more "cause 1 guy decided to shift from one leg to another, the entire unit counts as having moved"

so you cannot compair editions

It's still the same thing. The same concept about having to look at the possible charges to determine whether it's a charge through Difficult was there in 5th; just now we have to look at 12" possible charges rather than 6" possible charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sephyr wrote:

This increases the number of charges through terrain a lot. Basically, if any model in the target unit is within 1 inch of terrain...3d6 it is.

Not really. If, for example, you have three charging models in your unit, and the first three models in the target unit are outside of terrain and close enough together for your chargers to base those guys without breaking coherency, there's no chance they'll need to go through the terrain the rest of the models in the charged unit are in.

As always, it comes down to the positions of the models on the table.