Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, as the title says, I got Rahn'ed today

2 units of battlemages managed to get a turn 2 Caster kill on Kreoss, who was only about 8" in from the board edge. I went second to start the game off. Kreoss was behind a Vanquisher and a few Bastions, and those damn mages still got me.


Are there any specific tactics to counter this cheeseball? People claim Warmachine is balanced, I will now use this as an example that its not. Battlemages should NOT be able to pull/push large based models with those stupid gauntlets, and certaintly not at the same time while causing damage. Kreoss didn't even survive their gauntlets to get charged by his Pheonix.

/rant


Seriously, what can I do to counter this besides bubblewrapping my caster in cheap infantry?

I have a stellar record against Ret so far. I have gone against this rahn mage list a few times with both khador and circle. As khador, the battle generally goes - Phoenix tries to kill beast and fails. Battle mages fail to be useful against kayazy assassins under irusk. Irusk hangs out a mile away keeping rough terrain everywhere. Beast crushes phoenix, kayazy assassinate mages. Rahn is left defenseless. That is literally how every battle against that list has gone for me so far.

The list suffers severely in that they have no way to deal with rough terrain. Try using that to your advantage if you can.

On a side note: How freakin close do you guys play? 8in from the table edge? I think the best strategy for this is to simply get them before they get you. Kreoss' feat should help with that nicely. I think pFeora is probably your best bet, she would wipe the mages out very quickly.

Standard 4x4 tables.

First turn he ran forward and used Telikinesis. Then on turn 2 he used Telikinesis and movement to get into range.

Errants. With the UA they can't be targeted by spells and thus telekinesis won't work, nor will the battle-mages push/pull thingy.

Then you could use one of the Severus'. One or both can not be targeted by spells and have a spell or two that can be on a unit.

Sticking with Kreoss you could arm lock two jacks together. I don't think it stops telekinesis but locked models can not be pushed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, play and use terrain. Anything can stop pushes and only small bases can be telekinesis'd over a 0.5" wall. Don't rely on models to block line of sight. As you've seen it doesn't work.

Thanks for that tip.

It was in a tournament, but I can't be too mad since it was Summer Rampage. He only walked away with one more point then I got from the game, and he'd rolled all his other opponents. And he'd been saying how he really didn't like facing Menoth. Mine was the only game he changed his list for.

Retribution is a big problem for us in Menoth, but mostly because the Mage Hunter Strike Force can rip apart our support so easily, and our casters if they get too close (especially if Ravyn is leading them).

Rahn should be an extremely favourable match for us, considering all our magic denial. Get a list with Errants, throw the hymn of Shielding on the jacks, and all their Battle mages have nothing to shoot at. Then, a vanquisher can rip into them (while Rahn makes them not suffer blast damage, they will still be set on fire by the blast), and errants can pick away at them. Throw in the Covenant to prevent knock downs when needed, or (when you get closer) prevent spell casting so the battle mages can't even shoot, and you should be in a superior position.

epic kreoss for the win. i formerly played rhan, the army is strong, but not overpowered. ekreoss shuts it down with errants. even 1 squad that cannot be targeted by spells can roll through the battle mage army

alternatively, models with stealth help greatly. the tiered daughter of flame army is too fast for the mages to be fully effective also

Stealth tends to ruin Retribution's day in general. But yeah, the Rahn thing is really powerful if you don't know about it. If you know it's coming it's not That hard to avoid. Was annoying/amusing for awhile when Id be taking your second turn in a tournament game, if I'd even gotten that far yet, and I'd look up to see the local Ret player standing behind my opponent watching my game because he was already done with his.

"What happened?"
"His caster walked forward on his first turn."

If you want pain from a distance though. Shae Pirates. He Charged my caster in melee with a Jack and a Solo bottom of one, top of two, I forget which, got me down to three health, and then I had to Advance my caster forward still to get into the Killbox. I still almost won that one. Almost.

O its definitly never going to happen again. And I think if I had gotten first turn it wouldn't have happened either.


the fact that this tactic is such a one trick pony makes it surprising that anyone would even attempt it in a competitive event. If it fails, and it will against anyone familiar with it, you just handed your opponent the game.

LoL! You should see the Rayvn Turn 1 kill list. MHSF + UA to get advance deploy. Theme force makes the UA FA:U & theme lets the MFSF be FA:U as well and calls for at least 3 units of them.
So say he goes second, that means 10" deploy + 6" for AD for 33 models for 3 full units of MHSF + UAs. They can move 6" and then shoot which would put them @ 22" in shooting with a range of 12". BUT WAIT!! He will activate warcaster first, cast snipe on them which brings their range to 16" and pop her feat which gives them boosted attack rolls.

So now they are 22" into the board shooting 16" across the board which extends their threat range to 38" across the table which your caster should be about 35" (that is after a 6" move on turn one with 7" deployment) So now you have up to 30 models shooting at your warcaster on turn one that ignore anything adding to your ARM or DEF because the UA also gives them phantom seeker which lets them ignore LOS when making ranged attacks..... which normally means dead caster on turn one if he goes second.

To defeat that you have to run either very high armor warcaster or a caster that has access to stealth. In Khador thats Old Witch & Strakov for stealth and Butcher for armor. Meh... it is pretty balanced by the fact that their are hard counters for all that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
O its definitly never going to happen again. And I think if I had gotten first turn it wouldn't have happened either.


the fact that this tactic is such a one trick pony makes it surprising that anyone would even attempt it in a competitive event. If it fails, and it will against anyone familiar with it, you just handed your opponent the game.

That's why you bring two lists. If I see a Rahn theme list in my opponent's hand, I typically drop eButcher and six units of doom reavers on the table instead of my usual eSorscha shenanigans. Most armies have a pretty solid hard counter against the trick (Hexeris and Goreshade tear the list apart without even attacking), it's just a matter of knowing what your competition is likely to bring that day and having an answer prepared.

 Grey Templar wrote:
O its definitly never going to happen again. And I think if I had gotten first turn it wouldn't have happened either.


the fact that this tactic is such a one trick pony makes it surprising that anyone would even attempt it in a competitive event. If it fails, and it will against anyone familiar with it, you just handed your opponent the game.

Yes Rhan is a 1 trick pony. In the hands of a seasoned player, who has steam roller and possibly high level tournment experience, your in for a rough game. Many people think its simply drag and drop / tele list. Its really not. It can be played to attrition very very well. Its all about the feat turn, which honestly has so many boosted attack / damage rolls its not even funny. The list should murder most single wound infantry on the feat turn, larger models just get knocked down. If you actually play with water features, jacks are flat out going to have their cortex go out, because you'll get drug in. If you have buildings, prepare to get drug out then slammed into the building for high damage.

Rhan players tend to be very very smart the longer they have played him. Backed by a nice 2nd list, your in for a rough matchup regardless unless you have spell ward. The number of early game assassinations I had when I played that list was frightening. Even people who knew it, I could usually get their caster / lock drug foward and beat on them. Warlocks are sometimes even easier. Drag them, knock them down, cause high damage which gets transfered to beasts you typically cannot kill. Watch beasts die to transfers. Tele any big nasties so they cannot charge you.

Rhan is easy to beat, all you need is the Covonent of menoth, Keep it out front, no spells within 10" Of book, Long as keross is 2" Behind book, they cant touch him with spells.


You have a 2 Pt model that shuts down spells.

It wont keep you safe the entire game, but long enought to do what you need to do.

Also if he had a 7" Deploy, 12" Run, 2" Tele he is 21" up the table.

If you have 10" Deploy you are only 17" Apart, and you didnt have fire from the vanquisher on the mages or do anything else to them ?

What was your list ?

njpc wrote:

If you actually play with water features, jacks are flat out going to have their cortex go out, because you'll get drug in.

You don't go inert if you are already knocked down and the pushed into water. You have to be knocked down inside the water feature for it to happen. Strange but true.

I really want to see Rahn and a Hyperion together...

Rahn isnt that good with Hyperion imo

Only thing he brings is Polarity shield, Ravyn for snipe + Boosted attack rolls or Ossyn + Boosted Ranged damage.

12thRonin wrote:

njpc wrote:

If you actually play with water features, jacks are flat out going to have their cortex go out, because you'll get drug in.

You don't go inert if you are already knocked down and the pushed into water. You have to be knocked down inside the water feature for it to happen. Strange but true.

I really want to see Rahn and a Hyperion together...

Your correct. I never indicated you would. However with the inevitable of getting tele'd in OR drug in by BM's, then being knocked down into it... its going to happen. When you enter into Masters / pre masters play, you start seeing those lovely water features. Rhan's army has a lot of ways to put you into them IE Force Hammer, BM's, Tele, and lots of ways to knock you down. Its a nasty list, but can be countered

Just as easy for most hordes armies to throw a model into the water.

Ret doesnt even use steam power! and their steam engines go out if they fall in the water

 Spyder68 wrote:
Rahn isnt that good with Hyperion imo

Only thing he brings is Polarity shield, Ravyn for snipe + Boosted attack rolls or Ossyn + Boosted Ranged damage.

Ossyan, yes. I think Ravyn and Rahn are closer to a push for snipe and boasted attack vs. TK and knockdowns in actual play. Polarity Shield is kinda a big thing for a Colossal.

njpc wrote:Your correct. I never indicated you would. However with the inevitable of getting tele'd in OR drug in by BM's, then being knocked down into it... its going to happen. When you enter into Masters / pre masters play, you start seeing those lovely water features. Rhan's army has a lot of ways to put you into them IE Force Hammer, BM's, Tele, and lots of ways to knock you down. Its a nasty list, but can be countered

I'm very familiar with Rahn and his tricks (that's the basis for my wife's Ret army). When you said drug in it seemed that's what you were referring too. And you're right. You never see water features outside Masters tournaments.

 Spyder68 wrote:
Rahn isnt that good with Hyperion imo

Only thing he brings is Polarity shield, Ravyn for snipe + Boosted attack rolls or Ossyn + Boosted Ranged damage.

You forgot to mention Shatter Storm on Hyperion with Auto-Fire when using Ossyan (chronomance is also amazing).

12thRonin wrote:

 Spyder68 wrote:
Rahn isnt that good with Hyperion imo

Only thing he brings is Polarity shield, Ravyn for snipe + Boosted attack rolls or Ossyn + Boosted Ranged damage.

Ossyan, yes. I think Ravyn and Rahn are closer to a push for snipe and boasted attack vs. TK and knockdowns in actual play. Polarity Shield is kinda a big thing for a Colossal.

njpc wrote:Your correct. I never indicated you would. However with the inevitable of getting tele'd in OR drug in by BM's, then being knocked down into it... its going to happen. When you enter into Masters / pre masters play, you start seeing those lovely water features. Rhan's army has a lot of ways to put you into them IE Force Hammer, BM's, Tele, and lots of ways to knock you down. Its a nasty list, but can be countered

I'm very familiar with Rahn and his tricks (that's the basis for my wife's Ret army). When you said drug in it seemed that's what you were referring too. And you're right. You never see water features outside Masters tournaments.

I do wish more people played with all types of terrain. My first master event was a wake up call. Ironically.. I "got Rhan'd" I had Darius typical wall army which got pulled all over the place them knocked down while in water. It was an eye opening experience and made me start requesting practice games with people with all types of terrain. The game really is a dynamics and fun game when you utilize everything.

Water rules are way too harsh and one sided. I liked someone's suggestion one where water doesn't put out a Jack, it makes so so nothing can Shake effects while in it. In addition it's Rough Terrain that Amphibious but not Pathfinder ignores.

I'd argue that water should automatically end the Fire continuous effect

 Grey Templar wrote:
Standard 4x4 tables.

First turn he ran forward and used Telikinesis. Then on turn 2 he used Telikinesis and movement to get into range.

Just so you know, you cannot run and cast spells in the same turn.

He didn't run, the battlemages did. Should have been more clear.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd argue that water should automatically end the Fire continuous effect

I'd argue that it shouldn't be Easier to shoot a model laying down behind a wall than one standing up behind a wall.

That could be easily solved by saying a knocked down model is only 1" tall rather then its normal height.

There's also it's harder to shoot a model standing on a hill than a model standing behind a hill.

Lets hope MKIII fixes some of this.

Why fix whats not broken ? its non issues.

MK3 wont be for 5-6 years if not longer.

Question-why didn't choir sing no spells? That solves the majority of large base being moved problems