Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm still getting my bearings with this edition and playing Eldar so i have fast skimmer tanks ... this might be the reason i don't understand the panic.

I've played only a handful of games and only about 3 games with flyers but i just can't work out why people are so scared of them. Every one can see the positive, they're fast, hard to hit, can't be assaulted and they can attack other flyers without penalty. No one really seems to bothered about the negative.
1) they can only turn at 90' at the start of their move
2) they must move at least 18" or crash
3) many only have forward facing weaponry (45' arc)
4) they must start in reverser reserves
1-3 mean that if you move towards a flyer you can often get into its blind spot and ignore it while they turn it around. Even better you can place your unit and force them to turn away from you. This of course won't work on those that can hover but if its hovering every one can shoot at their full BS.

So what am i missing? Is it just hype, do flyers have an edge that i haven't seen or is it just i haven't faced a more then 2-3?

Flyers are nice, but they're not an o empowering threat.
When they arrive on the board (usually turn 4 with my rolls) they have about 2-3 turns use before they fly off again.

Flyers have strengths that nothing else can do, aside from the rules and weapons it has you can play around with the footprint of it.

E.G they cannot go within an inch of your base, so in a game sense I had deepstruck some termies down and they were busy eating a marine unit, but Abaddon the Despoiler was horribly close, so I flew both my flyers alongside to form a wall between Abby and the Terminators, he cannot shoot or assault the flyers but neither can he move underneath them so in this way I was able to use them as a moving wall.

My article has more details on this if you search (ctrl-f) for 'blockade' it brings it to that article in the list. I believe the last one in the article is on flyers too

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Playing_40k_without_the_luck

 Tri wrote:
So what am i missing?

You're missing the Vendetta.

Wrong positionning ? Just hover for a turn and get back in the right direction.
Need more firepower ? Get 3 more. it's just 1XX points after all, you can take 6 of them and still get lots of pretty toys.
Opponent fields no vehicle ? No problem, 2-3 S9 AP2 wounds per vendetta also kill MEQ and TEQ better than anything else you know.

If all flyers were AV10-11 or appropriately costed, there would be no problem with them.

 Nym wrote:

 Tri wrote:
So what am i missing?

You're missing the Vendetta.

Nope face them. 3 not 6 mind but then it wasn't high enough points for a second primary
1)It hovered and shot at me without moving.
2)My WS survived
3)My fire dragons got out and ripped it apart
He didn't hover any of them again

I think some people rely too much on people missing their snap fire shots at flyers. Vulkan lists are fun against flyers because of the melta spam rerolling their misses.

 warhawkstriker wrote:
I think some people rely too much on people missing their snap fire shots at flyers. Vulkan lists are fun against flyers because of the melta spam rerolling their misses.

that would be a case so rare i would just accept the luck. my dakkajets are very anti flyer anti infantry. usually with my rolls they are out turn 2 or 3 use the waagh plane rule for bs 4 18 twin linked shots. it hurts flyers on the board, or blob squads of infantry since most shots will be wounds.

other flyers, volume of fire shots (tau fire warriors) are my major worries. Quad guns or high powered weapons don't frighten me too much as they miss more than they hit, and I still get to jink.

I think a lot of people put too much stock with staying inside a flyers blind spot as well. sure you may be safe from one unit, but that means your probably not safe from the rest of your opponents army, not to mention his other flyer.

Hover is a nice option to allow you to get to rear armour or go for something strategically vital.

What people are missing is the strength having the option to fly of the board is. It allows you to after x turn come on automatically and alpha strike AGAIN. You can deny your opponent the turn to deal with them it just needs to be smart about what they use them for.

 cute-hydra wrote:
Hover is a nice option to allow you to get to rear armour or go for something strategically vital.

What people are missing is the strength having the option to fly of the board is. It allows you to after x turn come on automatically and alpha strike AGAIN. You can deny your opponent the turn to deal with them it just needs to be smart about what they use them for.

flyers do have a lot of advantages, though once everyone has a flyer, I think its usefulness will dwindle dramatically as you cant leave the turn you come in, and the player who's flyer arrives second will have the advantage.

So my 200 points of flyers can force you to move your units about the table?
That makes them really good.

Seeing how many flyers are transports, being able to dump units safely on objectives, and get shots on hiding units is also really good.

Eldar do have a pretty good edge vs flyers through. The speed of their units makes it easier for them to get out of arc of the flyer.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Eldar do have a pretty good edge vs flyers through. The speed of their units makes it easier for them to get out of arc of the flyer.

-Matt

What people miss with that concept is that the flyer comes on the board with the shot it needs then flies off the board doing it again. Sure you miss a turn, but you make up for it by being exactly where you want to be when. Eldar wave serpents are not really the primary concern of dakkajets though, nob bikers or meganobz or something that can assault the vehicle is better (no jink save). They would serve a more anti infantry role, thinning out large numbers (guardians) or warwalkers and the like. For flyers like stormravens and vendettas, you can hover and get exactly where you want to be. Same can be said for the stormtalon, though it doesn't move.

I'm not saying nowhere is safe, just that it is hard to just steer clear of something that can reach if it wants. Also keep in mind a flyer is just another tool in the toolbox, not an I win button.

Flyers are the type of unit that gets extremely hyperbolized by players. On the internet, people pay most attention to those who take extreme viewpoints. Therefore, you will hear lots of loud calls that flyers either "zomg sucx" or are "super op."

The real answer is that flyers are a tool have drastically changed the game. Players now must build to be able to beat flyers or ignore flyers. Hence, you see more infantry hoards. A big footprint of models both limits flyer movement and provides too many models to kill, especially in the objective based play of 6th edition. This is the direction that the meta has been taking since NoVa.

At the end of the day, flyers are far from unbeatable. The heavy flyer Necron list is not inherently balanced. It's a rock. The rock might be a good one, but it still faces horrid matchups. Supplementing lists with flyers is the better route, but still faces issues. For example, I have three flyers and my opponent has three flyers. Whoever goes second will have a huge advantage, in that they will likely be bringing on their flyers after the opponent, giving them something substantial to shoot. Usually, the second player will achieve air superiority.

I don't think flyers will completely die in 6th, but I do feel that we will see far less flyerwing armies in the coming months.

 cute-hydra wrote:

E.G they cannot go within an inch of your base, so in a game sense I had deepstruck some termies down and they were busy eating a marine unit, but Abaddon the Despoiler was horribly close, so I flew both my flyers alongside to form a wall between Abby and the Terminators, he cannot shoot or assault the flyers but neither can he move underneath them so in this way I was able to use them as a moving wall.

If you can fit under it you can move under it...

Flyers have their uses like hitting the pesky squad of Devs in the Back corner and as far as first vs second etc... Quad Gun... or anything with interceptor, as long as it lives. 1 flyer is at least limited to snapshots.

 JGrand wrote:
Flyers are the type of unit that gets extremely hyperbolized by players. On the internet, people pay most attention to those who take extreme viewpoints. Therefore, you will hear lots of loud calls that flyers either "zomg sucx" or are "super op."

The real answer is that flyers are a tool have drastically changed the game. Players now must build to be able to beat flyers or ignore flyers. Hence, you see more infantry hoards. A big footprint of models both limits flyer movement and provides too many models to kill, especially in the objective based play of 6th edition. This is the direction that the meta has been taking since NoVa.

At the end of the day, flyers are far from unbeatable. The heavy flyer Necron list is not inherently balanced. It's a rock. The rock might be a good one, but it still faces horrid matchups. Supplementing lists with flyers is the better route, but still faces issues. For example, I have three flyers and my opponent has three flyers. Whoever goes second will have a huge advantage, in that they will likely be bringing on their flyers after the opponent, giving them something substantial to shoot. Usually, the second player will achieve air superiority.

I don't think flyers will completely die in 6th, but I do feel that we will see far less flyerwing armies in the coming months.

I dont think the infantry horde is a good idea against many of the flyers availible right now. vendettas and SR are very popular, sure, but when the meta really switches to infantry you'll see more valks with large blasts and SR's with anti-infantry options as well. Dakka jets are just murder on footslogging troops. most infantry heavy armies also have very terrible armor saves, so thats still not the best results. even the chibitalon is cheap and deadly against infantry if its spammed.

I dont think Nova is a good way to measure the meta for 6th ed. It was way too early to really judge what is possible in this edition. TBH, I don't think there will really be a true meta past ranged being the primary form of combat, with assaulting units finishing the job or causing disruption among enemy ranks.

Most armies (see almost all) cannot make flyer spam lists, necrons being an exception. even then I dont feel it will be a good idea for them soon enough. with CSM already having flakk missiles, str 7 is more than sufficient in dealing with Nightscythes. Its av 12 where they struggle to consistently get the job done.

I dont think the infantry horde is a good idea against many of the flyers availible right now. vendettas and SR are very popular, sure, but when the meta really switches to infantry you'll see more valks with large blasts and SR's with anti-infantry options as well. Dakka jets are just murder on footslogging troops. most infantry heavy armies also have very terrible armor saves, so thats still not the best results. even the chibitalon is cheap and deadly against infantry if its spammed.

Here's the thing, Rocket Pods for a Valkerie are extremely expensive and negate the reason to take an IG flyer; mainly the durable AT/AA abilities. As I mentioned, I don't think flyers will go away. If IG players want to go anti infantry, they have far better options for large blasts. Storm Ravens cannot really take anti-infantry weaponry without paying for hurricane bolters (a big price for an already pricey model). Those particular flyers are mainly anti-tank and anti-air. Making them anti-infantry is expensive and better done by other options. The main list that foot hoard counters is the popular Necron flyers.

A 10 flyer army is possible with Crons. Many Cron lists are packing 3-8. However, if the opponent drops 80+ models on the table, the flyers are mitigated in multiple ways. First, the foot hoard can get to midfield relatively easily by turn 2. Which means that the first wave of flyers coming in on turn 2 will shoot. However, once the infantry move up again, the flyers will likely have to move off the board, as movement lanes begin to become clogged. As the models advance, moving 18" on the board is harder and harder. They may have to forgo shooting just so move on. It certainly prevents flyers from shooting whatever they want. In general, flyers will only get 2-3 turns of shooting as it stands. Put down enough models to restrict their targets, and they cannot deal with it. Eventually, they must drop the cargo to take objectives. Due to random turn length, they face the issue of trying to hold off a ton of models with MSU-ish units.

Keep in mind, the game is far more objective based as well now. Boots on the ground are more important than ever. So, in addition to the benefits versus flyers, foot hoards work toward missions in general.

I dont think Nova is a good way to measure the meta for 6th ed. It was way too early to really judge what is possible in this edition. TBH, I don't think there will really be a true meta past ranged being the primary form of combat, with assaulting units finishing the job or causing disruption among enemy ranks.

I disagree with elements of this. There have been a few large tournaments so far in 6th. Though there is a larger variety of lists being run, there is definitely a meta taking shape. I also disagree with the assertion that there is no true meta. Tons of 40k fans spend extensive time on blogs and forums because this is such a niche hobby. Competitive gamers follow results and keep an eye on what lists win. This leads to copy-cat lists and a perceived meta game. People plan to beat what they expect to see. Therefore, we see homogenized lists.

Most armies (see almost all) cannot make flyer spam lists, necrons being an exception. even then I dont feel it will be a good idea for them soon enough. with CSM already having flakk missiles, str 7 is more than sufficient in dealing with Nightscythes. Its av 12 where they struggle to consistently get the job done.

Disagree heavily. As I said before, players have to recognize that they must make the choice to beat flyers or ignore them. This is a new element of 6th edition. If you load up on bodies, even the vaunted flyer spam is manageable. Most players also ignore the mission and play to kill. Playing for the win against these lists is key. At NoVa this year, I played against one of the three guys who all played together and brought identical flyer lists. They believed they found the magic number of flyers. I beat the list handily with a more balanced army. IIRC, none of them ended up doing particularly well. They were all knowledgeable players who thoroughly tested their lists. The issue is that flyer spam is simply not balanced. It's a rock. A very hard rock, but a rock nonetheless.

I think JGrand makes some very valid points but also be aware there are some Necon builds which are designed to drop off their contents turn 2. The fliers don't win the game, they support the infantry who win the game.

... All of this is food for thought ... So how would a Flyer spam list deal with a heavy infiltrating army? Or a Drop pod army? Or a turbo boosting bike army? Any of which can effectively set up a no fly zone and/or force them to hover in.

Drop pods and bikers are actually ok. They don't have the coverage to deny significant portions of the board. However infiltrating hordes certainly can. I guess the question is can you realistically take up enough of the table to stop 5-7 fliers deploying? If so then it's pretty much an auto win. If not then you are at least giving them a hard time with minimal and less than optimum fire lanes.

 Lukus83 wrote:
Drop pods and bikers are actually ok. They don't have the coverage to deny significant portions of the board. However infiltrating hordes certainly can. I guess the question is can you realistically take up enough of the table to stop 5-7 fliers deploying? If so then it's pretty much an auto win. If not then you are at least giving them a hard time with minimal and less than optimum fire lanes.

I feel its do able with all of the above or a combination of them. Of course these builds would suffer against many other armys but i was interested in what tactics flyers would use against this.

As it happens i can do a lot of this with my current Eldar builds. Its very easy to manipulate what a zooming flyer can do.

I think JGrand makes some very valid points but also be aware there are some Necon builds which are designed to drop off their contents turn 2. The fliers don't win the game, they support the infantry who win the game.

You are absolutely right. The best Cron builds use flyers as a tool. Unbalanced ones use them as a crutch. My Cron list made use of 3 Night Scythes in order to drop off 3 units of 8 Immortals with a Stormtek. IMO a great way to made up for the lack of speed from foot units.

Nice. My personal preference is 4 Night Scythes. 2 with 5 warriors with Stormtek and 2 with 5 Deathmarks with Despairtek. The Scythes (4 Night, 3 Doom) just mop up what's left. It delivers a healthy alpha strike turn 2 while also putting a lot of infantry into the fray right where they need to be and eliminating whatever requires attention the most.

Hopefully will be seeing what it can do vs the new Chaos Codex this friday.

I think the all infantry horde meta is going to ebb and flow. Namely due to a lack of long range shooting in many of those lists. In BFS recently a couple of Razor-spam lists actually had some success due to the fact they were able to keep a distance from the infantry and pound them with shooting . A infantry horde is a different rock than a Necron flyer list, but it is a rock as well. There are some armies that can really pound infantry hordes out there, IG for one. What happens when your infantry horde comes against and IG player with a couple Punishers and Basilisks?

Getting back on topic most Flyers have dual roles or at least dual loadouts to accomplish anti-infantry. Valkyries with rocket pods cost the same as a Vendetta and add the stupidly cheap sponson heavy bolters and it doesn't matter if the Valk needs a turn to reposition for another strafe, its still putting out shots on something. Night Scythes with tesla can put a huge number of hits on infantry en masse.

However I think horde armies need durability as well as numbers. Obvious candidates include IG Blobs with ATSKNF, 20 man CSM squads, Fearless Cultists...etc.

Just like other armies, flyer heavy armies have some good/bad matchups. 3 vendettas can't do much vs. a hoard ork army, for example. Flyers do very well vs other armies, like razorspam.

Also, the format that you are playing in makes a big difference. In the NOVA format, flyers cannot be used for table quarters. This means an army with half its points invested in flyers has a significant disadvantage in 1/3 of the mission objectives. Its hard to go into an event knowing your at a disadvantage in 1/3 of the missions and expect to win every game.

I think the all infantry horde meta is going to ebb and flow. Namely due to a lack of long range shooting in many of those lists. In BFS recently a couple of Razor-spam lists actually had some success due to the fact they were able to keep a distance from the infantry and pound them with shooting . A infantry horde is a different rock than a Necron flyer list, but it is a rock as well. There are some armies that can really pound infantry hordes out there, IG for one. What happens when your infantry horde comes against and IG player with a couple Punishers and Basilisks?

I'd agree. People seem to believe that you can drop down 80 Marine bodies with nothing else and still win. This isn't necessarily true.

Getting back on topic most Flyers have dual roles or at least dual loadouts to accomplish anti-infantry. Valkyries with rocket pods cost the same as a Vendetta and add the stupidly cheap sponson heavy bolters and it doesn't matter if the Valk needs a turn to reposition for another strafe, its still putting out shots on something. Night Scythes with tesla can put a huge number of hits on infantry en masse.

When is the last time that you saw a rocket Valk (or even a Valk in general)? It's Vendetta or bust. IG can get anti-infantry other places. Tesla Destructors average 5 hits. While they certainly can top out at high volume, there is a variance. If 7 flyers average 35 hits, they will average 29 wounds on most things. This means 20 dead Orks/Guard ect or 10 dead Marines. If they can only do this 3 times over the course of a game, it simply isn't enough.

Just like other armies, flyer heavy armies have some good/bad matchups. 3 vendettas can't do much vs. a hoard ork army, for example. Flyers do very well vs other armies, like razorspam.

Also, the format that you are playing in makes a big difference. In the NOVA format, flyers cannot be used for table quarters. This means an army with half its points invested in flyers has a significant disadvantage in 1/3 of the mission objectives. Its hard to go into an event knowing your at a disadvantage in 1/3 of the missions and expect to win every game.

True. NoVa built in inherent balance. Even out of the book, they can't contest or take objectives.