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If an IC with the Champion of Chaos special rule is in a mixed unit, for example:

A Chaos Lord in a squad of guardsmen with a sergeant - is involved in a challenge, is it permissiable to select any of the eligible model(s) to fight the challenge? For example, could I choose to use the guardsmen
sergeant in the challenge, instead of the Chaos Lord?

No. The model with the rule must be the one who challenges/accepts. You only gt a choice if there are multiple models with Champion of Chaos.

Hmm. Now that's an interesting one. In units from CSM, the general tilt is that any character in the unit may issue the challenge. However this may not necessarily apply to allied units. . and here's why.

Pg. 28, Champions of Chaos
"If there is more than one model in a combat with this special rule, you may select which model issues or accepts the challenge."

Your Guard sergeant is certainly no Champion of Chaos.


However, the whole question is moot:

Imperial Guard are Allies of Convenience. Pg 111 states that units that are Allies of Convenience cannot be joined by allied Independent Characters.

What if it is a multi unit assault, the lord being part of a unit seperate from the guardsmen

Again.

Happyjew wrote:
No. The model with the rule must be the one who challenges/accepts. You only gt a choice if there are multiple models with Champion of Chaos.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
What if it is a multi unit assault, the lord being part of a unit seperate from the guardsmen

Then I would say the Champion of Chaos is required, if possible, to issue and accept a challenge. As the IG Sergeant does not have the Champions of Chaos Rule, you have are not given the right to choose which unit issues first.

Therefor, the Chaos Lord w/ the Champion of Chaos rule issues the challenge.

Firstborn wrote:
If an IC with the Champion of Chaos special rule is in a mixed unit, for example:

A Chaos Lord in a squad of guardsmen with a sergeant - is involved in a challenge, is it permissiable to select any of the eligible model(s) to fight the challenge? For example, could I choose to use the guardsmen
sergeant in the challenge, instead of the Chaos Lord?

first, impossible. Chaos is only battle brothers with Daemons, and daemons and Chaos ICs cannot join each other.
so a chaos HQ will never be in a guard squad, or vice versa.

HOWEVER, if you have a guard squad and a CSM squad charge into the same combat. You do run into problems, but WAIT
if you have a CSM squad and a Daemon Prince charge in, what happens. DPs do not have champion of chaos


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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page 28
"a model with the champion of chaos special rule must ALWAYS issue and accept a challenge whenever possible."

so a chaos cultist mob and a DP charge the same tactical squad. The DP sits around munching tac marines while he lets the Cultist champion double down for glory against the sergeant.

If you want to get around champion of chaos you can always hide your characters in the back, as any model that can't attack in combat cant issue or accept challenges. Challengers have to be engaged in the combat. This doesn't really work with small units though.

 Tarrasq wrote:
If you want to get around champion of chaos you can always hide your characters in the back, as any model that can't attack in combat cant issue or accept challenges. Challengers have to be engaged in the combat. This doesn't really work with small units though.

Whut?

I thought that when a challenge is issued, even if the characters were too far away to fight normally, they were "considered to be in B2B" despite this.

Did I mis-read this?

Iranna.

No, you read correctly. However for the challenge to be issued in the first place the character must be in combat. If a model isn't able to swing its not in combat and can therefore not accept or offer a challenge.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you read correctly. However for the challenge to be issued in the first place the character must be in combat. If a model isn't able to swing its not in combat and can therefore not accept or offer a challenge.

Interesting, you learn something new every day!

Iranna.

Bull.

Models are considered engaged in combat so long as a model from their unit is engaged. Their ability to swing or actually make attacks has nothing to do with being locked in combat unless it is a unit consisting of one model. Otherwise your IC would break out of the combat immediately after his initiative step pile in failed. Reread the assault rules.

Page 23 - Who can fight?
Note how there's an "Unengaged Models" section.
Then read the last sentence in the left column on page 64.

Please retread the assault rules.

Edit: the IC cannot break out of combat because the IC rules explicitly forbid it. The unit is locked in combat, but the models are not engaged which is what is required to participate in a challenge.

 Boneblade wrote:
Bull.

Models are considered engaged in combat so long as a model from their unit is engaged. Their ability to swing or actually make attacks has nothing to do with being locked in combat unless it is a unit consisting of one model. Otherwise your IC would break out of the combat immediately after his initiative step pile in failed. Reread the assault rules.

Your issue is you are conflating two terms

Every model is LOCKED in combat if one model is, however only models in btb with an enemy or within 2" of a friendly model from their unit in btb are ENGAGED

Challenges can be issued only to engaged models.

Thank you Nos, I was getting those terms mixed up. However more to point...

Rigeld, the restriction on engaged characters & challenges is for the challengee, not challenger. Your tactic of holding the character back deep in the unit would not matter.

Pg 64 issuing a challenge
"Nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger."

Accepting a challenge

"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges."

So the Champion of Chaos would issue the challenge regardless of whether or not he was engaged or able to attack.

Actually, there is something else to consider.

It depends on the controlling player's "order of operations."

Assuming it is the first round of combat in multi-unit assault, the controlling player can choose which unit declares the Challenge first.

So say the IG unit has a Char of any kind and the CSM unit also has a Char with Champion of Chaos special rule.
The controlling player can declare a challenge first with the IG Char then the CSM Char cannot issue a Challenge because only one challenge can be declared per combat.

The Champion of Chaos rules state that the model with this rule must issue or accept a Challenge whenever possible. If the controlling player declares a challenge with a different unit first, the Champion is no longer able to declare/accept because of the challenge rules.

Except that Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase. So at that point the challenge for the combat must come from the CoC if there is not an ongoing challenge.

Happyjew wrote:
Except that Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase. So at that point the challenge for the combat must come from the CoC if there is not an ongoing challenge.

There is no rule that says which unit in a multi-unit combat must go first. There is however precedent that things happen at the same time, the controlling player can choose which happens first. Multiple units, with Char's in CC means that there is more than one Char able to issue a Challenge and the Controlling player choose which goes first.

The CoC rule states whenever possible, if the controlling issues a challenge with a different unit first, it is no longer possible to the CoC to issue a Challenge

You choose a character in one of your units locked in combat to be the challenger. Is the CoC locked in combat? Yes. Must he issue a challenge? Yes. The only way to get round the rule completely is to charge into a combat with an ongoing challenge, or be charged and have your Champ way in the back.

40k-noob wrote:
There is however precedent that things happen at the same time, the controlling player can choose which happens first. Multiple units, with Char's in CC means that there is more than one Char able to issue a Challenge and the Controlling player choose which goes first.

That fundamentally doesn't work because there is no sequence of units for you to arrange. The player selects a character. You can't decide what order that happens in, because there's no internal steps. It just happens.

You're pretending there's a whole sequence where you go through the units in your combat and decide whether to challenge with this or that character. But that's just your invention. It's not in the rules at all. The rule is, you pick a character in the combat. There's no "steps" to that, you just pick one. And the Champions of Chaos rule states you have to pick one of them. There's no way to pick another model "first" (except in a previous turn, of course) because there's only one step.

 Boneblade wrote:
Thank you Nos, I was getting those terms mixed up. However more to point...

Rigeld, the restriction on engaged characters & challenges is for the challengee, not challenger. Your tactic of holding the character back deep in the unit would not matter.

Pg 64 issuing a challenge
"Nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger."

Accepting a challenge

"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges."

So the Champion of Chaos would issue the challenge regardless of whether or not he was engaged or able to attack.

You missed the part under issuing a challenge

...Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

(last sentence 3rd paragraph, p64)

Further, under Accepting a Challenge

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges

(last sentence, p64)

it is possible to have your unit with a CoC charge and not be forced to declare or accept a challenge. Nobs become a bit less scary to our aspiring champions, as do Necron Lords.