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I'm curious for people's opinions on any viability for these guys in an army. AP3 Bolters combined with 4+ invulnerable saves seems pretty awesome to me, but clearly, they're very expensive. I wonder if taking one squad in a mixed force army would be worth it ... just to get that anti Marine firepower.

What do you guys think? Any viable options/builds?

I dont know why you wouldnt just go plague marines with Plage marine bikers.. they are basically the new super unit in my opinion. But the again i dont see how one squad of thousand sons would hurt they are pretty awesome and just a tad OP haha yeh man id say go for it

yeah, just put them in a rhino, send them up the front and watch as those marines beg for cover saves, I myself have a whole army of them, never lost a game to an astartes player as of yet!

They make MEQ cry big fat crocodile tears. I love Thousand Sons, not because I use them in my army (I haven't built my chaos army yet!) but because last week, shortly after the chaos release, I walked into my FLGS and found our resident Chaos player grinning like a look and one of our Space Wolves players across the board just looking annoyed.

I walked up, asked what's up and happened to notice all the guy's Grey Hunters piled into cover and noticeably diminished. All I got from the SW player was "Fethin' AP 3 bolters."

Hilarious.

Keep in mind though, bolters are bolters and bolters aren't that great for killing hordes, vehicles or flyers. Thousand Sons have a very narrow niche at which they excel, but your army has to compensate for their failings by having anti-horde, anti-vehicle and anti-flyer somewhere else.

Tsons are as close to an Eldar unit that you can get outside the eldar codex.

Cc? Suck. Hordes? Suck. Armor? Suck?

Marines?

Dead.

Personally I think they're gorgeous, and would definitely love to field them.

If I conceive a different army theme/list idea from mono-Khorne, I'll probably bring a squad. They seem like they'd be awesomely fun.

A squad of 9 (favored number) Thousand Sons in a Rhino costs 277 points. This is down from the 289 it used to be with the cheapest build (Aspiring Sorc costing extra & taking doombolt for 10 points).

The unit is just as nice as ever provided you take something that turns it into a Troops selection. I run a Tzeentch ML 3 HQ Sorcerer in my Black Legion list and this squad always does very well. It usually holds on long enough even in prolonged battles to score on an objective, and absolutely destroys MEq opponents. If you are lucky enough to roll Doombolt and get that lovely Warp Charge 1 18" Str 8 Ap 1 beam, the squad also magically becomes a great anti-armor unit.

Make sure the Aspiring Sorc has a Force Staff to win some challenges and just sit back and profit.

Long story short, Thousand Sons are doing quite well.

I try to ignore those who are saying Tzeentch themed lists got shafted with the new book.

Ask me for some build types and I can steer you in an okay direction as far as theme goes, if you're interested in keeping to the background and being effective

Tzeench/Khorne might be neat. I really like my Khorne Juggernaut Lord, with some of the CC oriented units there. It would be cool to balance that out with some strong and varied Tzeench Sorcery/anti heavy armor.

I dont' really get the over costed part, they're cheaper than Plague Marines, and get Ap3 bolters/4++ in exchange for FNP/+1 T. The only thing that makes them more expensive is the Sorcerer the squad must upgrade to; but those extra powers are all really good. When used right, I can see these guys really working well in an army.

Just a thought ... a large blob on foot (say 18) with Ahriman, or alike HQ, using Gate of Infinity. seems very good, closest thing to a drop pod available for them.

The reason you'll get for them being overpowered is that the 4++ is pointless more often than not.

With 3+ armor, very little is denying your armor saves and less still is a real threat. I mean, sure, Krak missiles will deny a marine his save, but who's really shooting those at marines to begin with? A lot of AP 3 shooting is relatively low volume, so you don't have to worry too much about it. I think there are some eldar weapons that break that rule, but I don't know the CWE codex all that well to be honest.

So people look at thousand sons and see that they're marines that die when they fail their 3+ save like any other marine, cost more, and have SaP.

So I can see their point. What usually kills marines is volume of fire, forcing as many 3+ saves as possible. However, there are situations that 4++ is fething beautiful. My old 'Wet T-shirt contest' list from 5th edition hated playing against thousand sons. I was so in love with denying marines their armor and cover save on a 3- that it seemed sacrosanct that these guys could still get a save. The new burning brand from the chaos book is also an AP 3 flamer. Rubric marines would survive much better against that too. It's a small niche, but it's nice to have.

And then there's SaP. People overblow the disadvantage of this quite a bit. Running isn't that big of a deal with the change to Rapid Fire. Overwatch was never that big of a deal, although I can understand why some people (myself included) would salivate at the idea of AP 3 overwatch.

Check out my Ahriman Tactica. It may help you out.

No Gate of Infinity for Ahriman. I'd say that d3 Infiltrators representing an "auto-cast" Gate of Infinity is pretty damn good to make up for the loss of Telekinesis.

 Brometheus wrote:
Check out my Ahriman Tactica. It may help you out.

No Gate of Infinity for Ahriman. I'd say that d3 Infiltrators representing an "auto-cast" Gate of Infinity is pretty damn good to make up for the loss of Telekinesis.

Whoops, yeah wrong Psychic Discipline there. Oh well. Yeah, infiltrating would still be pretty darn good, especially if in Rhinos so you can move 6, disembark 6, and Shoot 12", Guaranteeing lots of hits on enemy infantry, if exposed.

 Lokas wrote:
...although I can understand why some people (myself included) would salivate at the idea of AP 3 overwatch.

Too bad that they cant use overwatch, due to SaP.

Forcemajeure wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
...although I can understand why some people (myself included) would salivate at the idea of AP 3 overwatch.

Too bad that they cant use overwatch, due to SaP.

...You do realize that the whole Slow And Purposeful not allowing Overwatch thing was what actually what led into my comment about AP 3 overwatch being an awesome pipe dream?

Or did you literally read nothing of my post but that one line out of context?

Thousand Sons are also a nice way of tying up enemy deathstars and big nasty walkers. Fearless and 4++ means that clump of kitted out terminators or the dreadnought probably aren't going anywhere for a long time, and the Aspiring Sorceror has a decent chance to win challenges and melta bomb walkers.

Forcemajeure wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
...although I can understand why some people (myself included) would salivate at the idea of AP 3 overwatch.

Too bad that they cant use overwatch, due to SaP.

Welcome to the discussion.

I like thousand sons , did a full list but I got stuck vs an entire ravenwing list. Doombolts quite good, but these guys need some backup both in the anti tank department and in CC. I'd almost recommend sitting mutilators or terminators on the backline so when your TS spend 4 rounds of combat with stalemates you can rush some CC in to wreck face. I had a 7 man squad stay for 3 full turns until my Tzneetchian termites came in.

I have a friend who swears by these guys.
And I mean swears by them like a heretic to his god.

I don't think they got any worse, just overlooked since they didn't get any better ether.

I think like most stuff in the codex it fills a gap. Quite slow and points heavy, but AP3, 4++ and a psycher with a force weapon puts them as pretty strong to me.

Not sure about giving them soul blaze. Seems a bit of a waste for them but could help out with larger squads a little I guess.

Idk whats with the Ksons ... they refuse to die. I have set them upon anything you can imagine from Tyranid MCs to Eldar to Ork Hordes. And win or lose w/e you send them at is now tied up for at least 2 or 3 turns.

Going to stick my sorcerer in a cultist squad behind a aegis defense line with the quad cannon for Anti Air/Light Armor. And if i can fit it a pred tank for anything else.

What masteries do you do for your Sorcerer/Ahirman? I am found of Biomancy to hopefully buff the cultist squad or debuff my enemy.

Melta Bombs on the Sorcerers a must have?

Well, their weakness is clearly a shared weakness with any Marine - mass troop fire. Seriously, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and even Tyranids shouldn't have much trouble killing them, I'm guessing the wrong units are chosen (to the benefits of the Thousand Sons players) to take them out. A whole squad of invulnerable saves very efficiently stops the AP2 MC's, Terminators, etc from being so effective, as Tyrs13 pointed out.

Better to throw the CC gods in with other basic troops to slaugther, and mow down Thousand Sons with massed fire or CC attacks, where you're not losing the AP you're paying for.

This, of course, is a strength of the Thousand Sons - charge to tie up the units you'd hate to assault the other units. Despite the AP3 bolter thrills, they seem to have a deceptively defensive synergy and playstyle.

I bring a single squad of 1000s quite often, heres my experience, i tend to leave them on a defensive objective on my side of the board with the big guns, like a defiler. Ive found that many games a meq army wont even try for that objective. and when the inevitable AT deep strikes happen, the enemy wastes valuable time tryng to manuever around the bolter fire.

the aspiring sorcerer is an often overlooked factor, he can be a nasty suprise when he rolls a good psyker power, or when the enmy gets a charge off and finds his powerfist sgt force weaponed down.

Their biggest drawback is they are 20 some point marines that are worse in combat than 13 point marines. They also struggle with armor which means it is fairly easy to assault them.

Also their icon is lackluster and the MoT on regular units took a huge nerf.

Combine them with Deamons (Flamers & Screamers) and they can overcome about every army...

 Badablack wrote:
Thousand Sons are also a nice way of tying up enemy deathstars and big nasty walkers. Fearless and 4++ means that clump of kitted out terminators or the dreadnought probably aren't going anywhere for a long time, and the Aspiring Sorceror has a decent chance to win challenges and melta bomb walkers.

you mean like wyches, which can get fearless, fnp, and a 4++ for 10 points? Tsons have AP3 bolters, that is about it.

 Exergy wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Thousand Sons are also a nice way of tying up enemy deathstars and big nasty walkers. Fearless and 4++ means that clump of kitted out terminators or the dreadnought probably aren't going anywhere for a long time, and the Aspiring Sorceror has a decent chance to win challenges and melta bomb walkers.

you mean like wyches, which can get fearless, fnp, and a 4++ for 10 points? Tsons have AP3 bolters, that is about it.

No, its not. They also have T4, S4 & a Sorc w/ a Force Weapon. DE Wyches are an effective offensve tarpit unit w/ minimal shooting potential; TS's can be offensive/defensive & have good shooting capability. You're NEVER going to take a squad of Wyches & plop them on an objective & wait for your opponent to come to you - you can do that effectively w/ TS's.

I disagree. Thousand Sons are suited for offense just as much as defense, what with the new Master of Deception.

Realistically, infiltrating and throwing them in combats after a suitable rapid fire in order to win (against most power armored space marine units because of Hatred) and subsequently slingshot to get an extra movement towards your enemy's deployment zone makes them as powerful as any other "offensive" unit.

Tsons are just fine in offensive and defensive roles.

Example- Infiltrate, shoot, get shot at, move up and charge that 5man Combat Squad and slingshot if you win combat to start blocking the path for those TH/SS termies with Vulcan (who hopefully have disembarked by now because of your army's anti-tank elements). Now those Terminators can either try to make it outside their deployment zone or charge the Thousand Sons nearby. You won't care about either decision.

The other thing to consider is that the AP 3 bolters are much much better than they were last edition.

Why? Because cover is worse across the board. You can focus fire models out of cover. The average cover save is 5+. So on and so forth.

So even if your opponent is smart enough to break bad habits and sticks to cover, he's still losing far more marines than he would last edition.

Also figure it like this. The Ksons all have power weapons that are used in the shooting phase.

Most marines pay 10 points for a power weapon on just a Sgt. Then add in a 4++ (or MoT) ...

Tsons come with it base .... sure they suck in CC but do you really want your Plasma gun in CC? or do you want him shooting?

The only things we were over paying for were psychic powers and the sorcerer. This edition our sorcerers dont mean anything other then LoS for Psychic powers and a force weapon (which we also get for free).

They arent overpriced but you get what you pay for thats why they fall under an elite army like GKs. I just wish they did something with the Sorcerers Covenant rule or something similar.

What i would like to hear is how you all support them or how they support your armies.

Lets get some tactics down while we are talking about Ksons.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Also figure it like this. The Ksons all have power weapons that are used in the shooting phase.

Most marines pay 10 points for a power weapon on just a Sgt. Then add in a 4++ (or MoT)

Yeah but these power weapons give a cover save, and orks and gaunts and lots of other stuff treat regular bolters like power weapons anyway.

Their ability isn't worth 10+ points over a normal marine. Maybe if they went back to two wounds per model...

It isn't that they are terrible units. Just terribly overpriced. And less useful than just about every other chaos cult unit. Except maybe Berzerkers. They have fallen very far with the edition change and the MoK nerf.

I think that there is a dead horse being shot to death by AP3 bolters in this thread.

It is true, Thousand Sons are expensive and have limited utility in that the sorcerer is only ML 1 (down from 2) and can only use Tzeench powers (rather than book).

So what, if those things keep you from using TS, then fine, don't play TS, that is understandable.

I think the thread should focus on how to make them work, for those that want to use TS.

Ultimately, there are pros and cons, the key is not about debating the pros and cons but maximizing the pros and minimizing the cons...That is what I did with TS in the past and did well with them as a result and that is what you do with any army.

You can easily build your army around the weaknesses of TS in the new codex.

1.) I think Ahriman (or a mastery 3 sorcerer with MoT) and a 3 mastery sorcerer with Telepathy is a good start. Mainly for invisibility and hallucination can really change the game for your units giving +3 to cover and making their targets in CC WS1 (consequently making the invisible unit hit on a 5+).

Telepathy also has access to a power that takes away the benefit of fearless so you can now run down Tyranids and full Ork mobs if you do well enough in combat.

2.) Anti tank-cheap havocs, predators or obliterators provide nice ranged anti tank while chaos bikers or Chosen or cheaper CSM marines with meltas are nice as well.

3.) Anti horde-obliterators and Helldrake with baleflamer is very nifty here. Bolters are bolters and they are still decent against hordes.

4.) Close Combat-Terminators and bike units seem to be able to fit this roll nicely and if you get invisibility, that power can make or break a particular combat-it will make your terminators insane killing machines.

5.) Allies-Flamers are great at punching terminator armor and dealing with hordes while Screamers are great at taking out all kinds of armor and are great in CC against anything without an invul save (and they can have invisibility cast on them thanks to being battle brothers).

Anyway, this is just to get the ball rolling with things you can include in your army to help make TS more viable and effective...After all, as people have pointed out, the TS come in very handy in certain situations and against certain targets JUST like a meltagun comes in handy against a tank or unit...against hordes, who cares but good players will always find good targets for their weapons.