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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 14:47:21
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Been Around the Block
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This is mostly wish listing, but I think Thousand Sons are one of the few big disappointments I have with the new chaos codex. I came up with a new set of rules for them that is hopefully not overpowered, just balanced. But also more importantly, these rules should be more interesting and in general just less boring.
I feel like the current problem with Thousand Sons is they are exceptional marine killers, and not much else. I hate taking units that only work against certain armies, as I feel like a dick when my opponent plays that army, and they feel wasted against everyone else.
My rules:
Aura of Dark Glory - Now grants 5+ FnP
Inferno Bolts - Soul blaze counters inflicted by Thousand Sons or Aspiring Sorcerers stack. Resolve each counter separately.
Additionally weapons carried by the thousand sons and Aspiring Sorcerers (bolters, bolt pistols, heavy bolters) with the
Soul Blaze special rule have the Rending special rule as well.
Wargear: Same as before, add Icon of Flame for free
Special Rules: Same as before
Options: Includes all options in the codex.
May upgrade one model to carry a heavy bolter per four Thousand Sons in the squad. This costs +10 points.
Statline: Unchanged
140 points for 4 Thousand sons and 1 Aspiring Sorceror. May add additional Thousand Sons for 21 points each. Max squad size is 9.
Note as they no longer have an invulnerable save, Mark of Tzeentch grants the squad a 6++ save now.
I considered adding that soul blaze wounds inflicted by inferno bolts also have rending, but I think it would be too good. Comments?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 21:46:26
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Lord of the Fleet
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I would rather have a 4++ on my expensive Marines than have Soul Blaze and Rending.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 21:49:46
Subject: Re:Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Altering Aura of dark glory to FnP would make it redundant for MoS
Stacking Soul blaze feels way OP, it causes D3 Boltgun hits per counter. low T 5+ or worst save units, there is a lot of them and they are standard troops, would just incinerate.
Adding rending on top of all that would be WAY op, it gives them a spread of killing anything from blob squads to medium tanks with one gun. just no.
Thousands sons Rubric marines are generally not heavy hitters. They take an obscene amount of punisment, not dish it out. They are the unrelenting, undying wall the sorcerers hide behind and in to unleash their powers. The sorcerers are pretty much the heavy hit of the force while the rubric marines lay down unending torrents of inferno bolts.
I never understood why they didn't just use a vehicle mechanic for them. Make them AV9 with no Toughness and no Armour save (as they are the armour) and have special rules like; each glancing hit causes the model to stop mid stride, may not move next turn. Other models in the unit are unaffected. Penetrating hits disable the Thousand son model and it is removed as a 'casualty'. In assault Glancing hits -1A, if this reduces the models attacks to 0 then it may not attack. If another glancing hit is scored and the closest model has 0A then apply the result to the next model. Penetrating hits are the same as before, remove the mode as a 'casualty'. Both Glancing and penetrating hits count to combat resolution. They would have a chance to save the glancing or penetrating hits with their 5+ invuln at all times so it would make them quite formidable.
I dig the thematic aspect of rocking the slow ponderous thousand son as he shambles towards you. Also, built in immunity to S2 weapons and near immunity to S3. Heh TDA Rubrics could be AV10 4+ invul, if they bothered with TDA Cults.
Or you could even give them 2 HPs to make sure S3 has a chance to kill them too.Though Id remove the stops in its tracks and -1A rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:05:18
Subject: Re:Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Been Around the Block
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Bausk wrote:Altering Aura of dark glory to FnP would make it redundant for MoS Stacking Soul blaze feels way OP, it causes D3 Boltgun hits per counter. low T 5+ or worst save units, there is a lot of them and they are standard troops, would just incinerate. Adding rending on top of all that would be WAY op, it gives them a spread of killing anything from blob squads to medium tanks with one gun. just no. Thousands sons Rubric marines are generally not heavy hitters. They take an obscene amount of punisment, not dish it out. They are the unrelenting, undying wall the sorcerers hide behind and in to unleash their powers. The sorcerers are pretty much the heavy hit of the force while the rubric marines lay down unending torrents of inferno bolts. I never understood why they didn't just use a vehicle mechanic for them. Make them AV9 with no Toughness and no Armour save (as they are the armour) and have special rules like; each glancing hit causes the model to stop mid stride, may not move next turn. Other models in the unit are unaffected. Penetrating hits disable the Thousand son model and it is removed as a 'casualty'. In assault Glancing hits -1A, if this reduces the models attacks to 0 then it may not attack. If another glancing hit is scored and the closest model has 0A then apply the result to the next model. Penetrating hits are the same as before, remove the mode as a 'casualty'. Both Glancing and penetrating hits count to combat resolution. They would have a chance to save the glancing or penetrating hits with their 5+ invuln at all times so it would make them quite formidable. I dig the thematic aspect of rocking the slow ponderous thousand son as he shambles towards you. Also, built in immunity to S2 weapons and near immunity to S3. Heh TDA Rubrics could be AV10 4+ invul, if they bothered with TDA Cults. Or you could even give them 2 HPs to make sure S3 has a chance to kill them too.Though Id remove the stops in its tracks and -1A rules. I like the idea of giving them a low armor value, but I think it has a lot of problems that could be abused both for and against them. I agree that rubric marines should be able to take a ton of punishment, which is why I suggested FnP. I don't feel like having a 4++ save really is very consistent with the fluff. After all, of all the cult troops, Thousand Sons are literally the only ones that truly can't feel pain (they can't feel anything). I would think they would be much more likely to die quickly to something that instant deaths them due to simply obliterating their armor, than they would be to die to say bolters. Even a direct bolter shot to the head should really have little effect on these things. Its going to be things like rockets that destroy them outright. A 4++ save reflects the opposite, small arms fire is the most efficient way to kill them. I agree the rending might be a bit much, but I think you are potentially overplaying the power of even stacking soul blazes. Without venturing into giving them an armor value, I would suggest maybe just removing rending from my proposed rules. Alternatively we could bump them back to 150 base +23 per guy and change rending to ignores armor on a roll of a 6 to wound. Overall this makes them slightly better against terminators than they are now, and probably worse against marines, tau, and necrons, but also better against horde armies. Also note that Soul Blaze doesn't cause D3 bolter hits per counter, it causes D3 hits on a 4+. The average number of hits would be just 1. That's significantly worse than simply letting them shoot an extra shot, as these counters only get added when a model fails a save. Additionally they wouldn't have the rending rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/18 22:10:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:06:55
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Giving each model an AV value is quite possibly the most complicated thing I've ever heard. Imagine having to keep track of HPs and damage effects for every single marine in a 20 man unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:10:16
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Hallowed Canoness
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I like the idea of making them vehicles, heh. I did write a C:SM update a while ago on the bolter and chainsword that basically made all power armour work like that.
What i'd like is to just drop the Rubrics maybe 4 points (20 points/model is still a LOT!), and let the Aspiring Sorcerer buy a second mastery level.
Maybe allow them to take another Sorcerer or two in each unit.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:33:24
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Been Around the Block
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Furyou Miko wrote:I like the idea of making them vehicles, heh. I did write a C: SM update a while ago on the bolter and chainsword that basically made all power armour work like that.
What i'd like is to just drop the Rubrics maybe 4 points (20 points/model is still a LOT!), and let the Aspiring Sorcerer buy a second mastery level.
Maybe allow them to take another Sorcerer or two in each unit.
I do like the idea of having more Rubrics that are less powerful.
But I think the idea of stacking soul blazes is just interesting in general. Even if it isn't statistically that powerful.
So maybe FnP, and stacking soul blaze, with an option to upgrade upto two models to have a heavy bolter? And then just say 19-20 points a guy. I'd drop FnP for something more appropriate too, but I don't think it should be restricted just because its the Slannesh/Nurgle thing, it makes a lot more sense on Rubrics than noise marines honestly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:43:13
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Valkyrie wrote:Giving each model an AV value is quite possibly the most complicated thing I've ever heard. Imagine having to keep track of HPs and damage effects for every single marine in a 20 man unit.
Damages effects or HPs, not both. If its HPs is no different than multiwound squads like nobs, paladins, ogryn etc. Damage effects are not that hard, X glancing hits stop X models in unit. X penetrating hits remove X models. Its like counding wounds then applying the affects, only there is more than one effect. The assault version of Glancing hits are no harder to keep track of than things like scourge or other wargear/rules that modify characteristics. It not like they roll on the damage table, they are either dead or stopped. How is that hard to keep track of?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/18 22:46:16
Subject: Re:Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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The fluffy thing to do would be to go back to 2 wounds and feel no pain without the invulnerable, keep inferno bolts.
Not going to happen though.
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Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/19 12:40:25
Subject: Re:Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Numberless Necron Warrior
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Nitros14 wrote:The fluffy thing to do would be to go back to 2 wounds and feel no pain without the invulnerable, keep inferno bolts.
Not going to happen though.
I think going back to 2 Wounds would be a good thing, perhaps with a 6+ Invulnerable. That would make Rubrics durable and Plague Marines tough, without either overlapping the other.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/19 13:07:01
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster
Fredericton, NB
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I have an idea keeping with the current points costs of the book.
-Stat line remains unchanged from current version
-Inferno Bolts make all Bolt weapons in unit AP3
-For every 9 models in the Squad may take a Heavy Bolter for 5/10? pts
-The Sorcerer Commands: As long as a Sorcerer or Asp Sorcerer is in the Squad the squad is Relentless instead of SaP
-Sorcerer may buy another psychic power (not a mastery level, just a roll on the charts) Rolling on Biomancy, Telepathy, Pyromancy or Tzeentch for 10 pts. Automatically Appended Next Post: This way a 9 man TK squad w. Heavy Bolter is 247 pts, and is relentless.
No idea to do what about the Icon.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/19 13:08:57
Know thy self. Everything follows this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/19 14:23:34
Subject: Re:Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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The Sorceror could really use a spell familiar, perils is such a problem with 1 wound.
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Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.
No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnIFn-iROE |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/20 04:18:06
Subject: Making Rubric Marines/Thousand Sons more interesting.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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...You know, Thousand Sons aren't bad as is because they've got AP3 guns and a 4++ save. Dropping the save and the cost to make the guns Rending is a tad unbalanced and wrecks what was good about them in the first place...
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