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I'm about halfway through the Gaunt's Ghosts series and I'm impressed with Dan Abnett's feel for how a military unit operates and how human beings react to battle. He seems to do his research, so I'm a bit puzzled how a unit like the Ghosts is organised. At the start there are about 3000 men in the regiment. This is about a Brigade-strength force of three battalions, assuming they are all combatants and that number does not include the large number of support elements of all kinds. However, I do not remember any mention of any unit but platoons. No companies? No battalions? at one point after a battle, Gaunt notes that the Ghosts have fallen below one hundred platoons for the first time. It seems odd, does this reflect any real-world forces? Each platoon, presumably of about thirty troops, is led by a Sergeant. Normally it would be led by a Lieutenant or Captain. There seem to be very few officers involved at all - two Colonels - Gaunt and Corbec, Major Rawne, Captain Ban Daur, a host of Sergeants and that's it. Surely there would be support Companies/Platoons with heavy weapons. I know the Tanith are light infantry specialists and the platoons have flamers, rocket launchers and auto-cannons integral to them but on a conventional battlefield without heavy support they would be ground down no matter how good they are.

You might roll your eyes and think "Jesus, it's only a SF book" but, as I say, Abnett does his research and it just doesn't seem realistic or feasible.

Platoons are led by captains and squads are led by sergeants, the fact that he doesnt do this is probably he doesnt want to come up with a whole bunch of names for Captains and then completely ignore most of them

I don't know, but they're going to get killed by Orks and Chaos so it doesn't matter

The company organization is more or less in the background as organization that high up is simply something that doesn't come up during a battle. Sure, they matter a bit, but mostly the companies are just funneling orders down to the squad level where the action really happens. We only need to know about the very top and very bottom of the chain of command, between them is just bureaucratic nonsense that would last forever. The Ghosts' heavy support often comes from other regiments from other worlds, although tread-fethers and autocannons are very good on their own.

Well for what its worth they have a colours band, I know that for certain.

... and another thing.When he describes Larkin allowing for windage when preparing to fire. <sigh>. He's using a friggin laser. It's not affected by bullet drop, windage, coriolis force or anything else. If you could see the enemy you would just put the red dot on him, squeeze the trigger and the effect is instantaneous, you could hardly miss. He should have had Larkin using a solid-shot sniper rifle for some reason if he wanted to emphasise what a crack shot he is. Otherwise why would they have an unstable headcase in their midst, liable to crack at any time?

 Rooster wrote:
... and another thing.When he describes Larkin allowing for windage when preparing to fire. <sigh>. He's using a friggin laser. It's not affected by bullet drop, windage, coriolis force or anything else. If you could see the enemy you would just put the red dot on him, squeeze the trigger and the effect is instantaneous, you could hardly miss. He should have had Larkin using a solid-shot sniper rifle for some reason if he wanted to emphasise what a crack shot he is. Otherwise why would they have an unstable headcase in their midst, liable to crack at any time?

They use solid shots every so often in the books, are you sure this isn't one of those occasions? I'm not doubting you, he may well have made that error, but honestly, its a sci-fi book with monsters and what not.

 motyak wrote:

 Rooster wrote:
... and another thing.When he describes Larkin allowing for windage when preparing to fire. <sigh>. He's using a friggin laser. It's not affected by bullet drop, windage, coriolis force or anything else. If you could see the enemy you would just put the red dot on him, squeeze the trigger and the effect is instantaneous, you could hardly miss. He should have had Larkin using a solid-shot sniper rifle for some reason if he wanted to emphasise what a crack shot he is. Otherwise why would they have an unstable headcase in their midst, liable to crack at any time?

They use solid shots every so often in the books, are you sure this isn't one of those occasions? I'm not doubting you, he may well have made that error, but honestly, its a sci-fi book with monsters and what not.

I believe it's in the first book that they talk about Larkin taking an old solid shot rifle as a trophy. I think he uses it ever so often, then again the chronology of the second book threw everything out of whack.

 Rooster wrote:
... and another thing.When he describes Larkin allowing for windage when preparing to fire. <sigh>. He's using a friggin laser. It's not affected by bullet drop, windage, coriolis force or anything else. If you could see the enemy you would just put the red dot on him, squeeze the trigger and the effect is instantaneous, you could hardly miss. He should have had Larkin using a solid-shot sniper rifle for some reason if he wanted to emphasise what a crack shot he is. Otherwise why would they have an unstable headcase in their midst, liable to crack at any time?

These sorts of things are just where I suspend disbelief in 40k books.

Yeah, a laser shouldn't need to adjust for wind and drop. No, the regiment should not have an mentally unstable master sniper. Though, it shouldn't have a second in command who has tried to kill the regiments CO and Commisar. It shouldn't have had someone pass basic training who could never figure out how to aim a weapon. There's plenty of stuff in the Gaunts Ghosts book that make no sense thinking about it logically or applying real world military ideals to it.

It's there because it, quite simply, makes for better story telling.

 -Loki- wrote:
It shouldn't have had someone pass basic training who could never figure out how to aim a weapon.

Who's that?

^I assume he means Bragg.

Since lasguns don't actually exist, is it possible they could be affected by wind and drop? I don't know anything about lasers, but they are clearly a little different to the lasers in 40k.

 Dunwich wrote:
\

Since lasguns don't actually exist, is it possible they could be affected by wind and drop? I don't know anything about lasers, but they are clearly a little different to the lasers in 40k.

It's a beam of light, nothing's going to affect it unless it reflects, refracts or absorbs it, so maybe a heavy fog will weaken a shot slightly, or a mirror with a high melting point will be unstoppable. Wind and Gravity have no effect whatsoever.

 Dunwich wrote:
^I assume he means Bragg.

Since lasguns don't actually exist, is it possible they could be affected by wind and drop? I don't know anything about lasers, but they are clearly a little different to the lasers in 40k.

Ah Bragg, how could I forget about Bragg.

Gravity bends light btw.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Gravity bends light btw.

Not enough to be considered within the range of a lasgun, or even a las-sniper for that matter.

Depends on the gravity / planet / mass / singularity.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Depends on the gravity / planet / mass.

Somewhere with enough gravity to bend light (noticeably) within such a relatively short range would probably be inhospitable to most guardsmen, but you do have your point.

on the las-weapons: The only thing that can bend light enough for us to notice it is a black hole, I don't think any enemy would hide there because they would never, ever, ever survive.
On the organization: the books change along with the codexes, there were times when companies weren't used alot in the guard (towards 3rd edition) but now they're very common. Also, they have such a weird soldier count, its hard to say how Abnett keeps it organised. Also, as someone above mentioned, it doesn't really matter what their organization is, as long as you have the upper brass giving the orders, and fighting (Gaunt never disappoints), and the lower brass, who just fight.
I'm guessing you're halfway through the Saint (4-7), maybe even into the Lost (8-11). You'll notice the change in all the ranks and such. Just look up old codexes and just go with the flow. Get ready for some nasty shocks!

 Arcani wrote:
on the las-weapons: The only thing that can bend light enough for us to notice it is a black hole, I don't think any enemy would hide there because they would never, ever, ever survive.
On the organization: the books change along with the codexes, there were times when companies weren't used alot in the guard (towards 3rd edition) but now they're very common. Also, they have such a weird soldier count, its hard to say how Abnett keeps it organised. Also, as someone above mentioned, it doesn't really matter what their organization is, as long as you have the upper brass giving the orders, and fighting (Gaunt never disappoints), and the lower brass, who just fight.
I'm guessing you're halfway through the Saint (4-7), maybe even into the Lost (8-11). You'll notice the change in all the ranks and such. Just look up old codexes and just go with the flow. Get ready for some nasty shocks!

I'm currently reading Traitor General (book 8).

Yeah, atmospheric conditions like fog, rain, dust can affect the strength of a laser beam but not gravity to any noticeable extent, at least not on any planet humans can exist on.

One thing I noticed between the Earlier books and tha latter books (say, between Necropolis/Ghostmaker and Guns of Tanith/Straight Silver/sAbbat Martyr) the organization of the Ghosts changed - number and sizes of platoons, etc. They also firmed up their weapons organization more (long las and snipers, flamer operators, missile/rocket launcher dudes and the stubber/autocannon crews. IIRC in earlier fluff they had meltas and Bragg used heavy bolters IIRc, but they lost those.) So it could be a result of the Post-Necropolis reorganization and introduction of the Verghast troops which changed their roles too (they became a bit less 'forest rangery' and became more 'urban warfare/CQB-y') since I read the series up to Sabbat Martyr and haven't done a reread yet, I'm getting towards rereading the GG series at some point.

Also Abnett's views on las-weaponry went some pretty drastic revisions some time around Honour Guard/Guns of Tanith IIRC. I have skimmed some of the latter novels and they definitely get the 'laser bullet' feel. I tend to joke Abnett decided to turn lasguns into Star Wars blasters, in a literary (rather than visual) format.

I suspect most of this was done to bring the GG series more in line with the 'vision' he's taken it after the first couple books (again Necropolis/Honour Guard/STraight Silver/Sabbat Martyr seem to mark that transitional periond as I recall.) You'll also note around this period 'hotshot' packs became the single shot weapons we know and love too (in 'Ghostmaker' for example, Larkin's long las could fire multiple hotshot rounds, which was consistent with earlier depictions - eg Uplifting Primer.)

 Rooster wrote:
I'm about halfway through the Gaunt's Ghosts series and I'm impressed with Dan Abnett's feel for how a military unit operates and how human beings react to battle. He seems to do his research, so I'm a bit puzzled how a unit like the Ghosts is organised. At the start there are about 3000 men in the regiment. This is about a Brigade-strength force of three battalions, assuming they are all combatants and that number does not include the large number of support elements of all kinds. However, I do not remember any mention of any unit but platoons. No companies? No battalions? at one point after a battle, Gaunt notes that the Ghosts have fallen below one hundred platoons for the first time. It seems odd, does this reflect any real-world forces? Each platoon, presumably of about thirty troops, is led by a Sergeant. Normally it would be led by a Lieutenant or Captain. There seem to be very few officers involved at all - two Colonels - Gaunt and Corbec, Major Rawne, Captain Ban Daur, a host of Sergeants and that's it. Surely there would be support Companies/Platoons with heavy weapons. I know the Tanith are light infantry specialists and the platoons have flamers, rocket launchers and auto-cannons integral to them but on a conventional battlefield without heavy support they would be ground down no matter how good they are.

You might roll your eyes and think "Jesus, it's only a SF book" but, as I say, Abnett does his research and it just doesn't seem realistic or feasible.

Abnett seems to have Sergeants take on the roll Lieutenants normally would in leading platoons. Perhaps to represent the fact that few officers apparently got off world and that it was those natural leaders from within the ranks that took up the positions of responsibility. But basically it's often just best to assume that a lot of the Sergeants are effectively junior officers.

The regiment maintains a very loose structure when it comes to organisation probably for the sake of story telling. Abnett doesn't want to set companies, platoons and squads in stone, because that would hinder his ability to place characters where he wants them at the time. It could also represent a regiment with few men with any actual formal officer training to constrain them.

Without meaning to spoil anything, the later books will present a more structured regimental command, with more designated companies and officers. A more complete approach to heavy weaponry is apparent to.

If lasguns were proper lasers guardsmen would all be BS5

The Tanith 1st was 3 regiments mashed together. The scraps Guant could save from Tanith. It's highest organizational unit appears to be a platoon. At one point Gaunt is concerned the Regiment will be grinded away completely when it falls below 100 platoons. There seems to be be one other Colonel besides Gaunt and a couple Majors and several Captains.

Initially they were 2 senior officers and 2 to 3 thousand men organised in platoons, each lead by an officer, this continued until after Vervunhive
(this is what was saved from Tanith's initial 3 regiments)
Not too long after that they shored it all up into companies with Captains as leaders and sergeants leading the platoons within. This was added to with the induction of the Belladons.

Each platoon will usually have a heavy weapon team and a special weapon operator or two. The common Heavy weapons used are Tred Fethers (Missile Launchers) Heavy Stubbers and Autocannons. Special weapons are Flamers. Bragg did have a Heavy Bolter he lugged around but IIRC he picked it up on the battlefield.
They did also gained a colour company much to Gaunt's facepalm

exceptions to this are the pride of the Tanith the scouts and and the not as much the marksmen corp.
Usually a marksman and scout will be attached to a platoon.

From book 4 onwards they also have a visible commissariat presence (Hark) aside from Gaunt

Presently they have less than 2000 men


As for Larkin being a crack sniper he has used slug rifles

They do seem to utilise "platoon sergeants" instead of lieutenants. Perhaps you're right about the reorganization to companies some time after Vervunhive. Any idea how many platoons to a company? Probably three or four.

It seems to be roughly any where up to 6 at any point but usually not beyond that

 Rooster wrote:
At the start there are about 3000 men in the regiment. This is about a Brigade-strength force of three battalions, assuming they are all combatants and that number does not include the large number of support elements of all kinds. However, I do not remember any mention of any unit but platoons. No companies? No battalions?

No, 40k in general is a much simplified version of actual military logistics. Obviously when it comes the BL fiction it will vary from author to author, but normally companies, brigades and battalions are left out in favour of squads, platoons and regiments. These terms are semi-interchangable, but the latter are perhaps the most widely used/known, so they're more commonly seen in publications, it seems. Remember, also, that "regiment" is kinda a catch-all phrase for the IG as a way to at least try and standardise what they regard as the most common autonomous military formation, and that it can represent a much wider variety of unit-type than it does IRL.

The Tanith founding was to be three reginments numbering 6000 men (I'm almost certain, again for the sake of simplicity, that Abnett works pretty much entirely in combatants with these numbers). So that's 2000 soldiers = a Tanith regiment. Only half of these were saved, and rolled into the First-and-Only.

Each platoon, presumably of about thirty troops, is led by a Sergeant. Normally it would be led by a Lieutenant or Captain.

Not quite. Captains (and Majors) are usually minimum Company-strength commanders, which is several platoons. Lieutenants are minimum platoon leaders, and usually Company XO (first/company lieutenant). This, again, seems to stem from both simplification on GW's part, and perhaps an amalgamation of multiple Western military doctrines. For example a U.S. sergeant is typically a more junior NCO position than the Commonwealth counterpart, leading a squad/fireteam, whereas the latter would perhaps be more of a platoon 2iC/platoon leader. Also, there are various levels of sergeant with equally various levels of seniority that in 40k have been simplified to sergeant and veteran sergeant, so, again it's kind of a catch-all.

There seem to be very few officers involved at all - two Colonels - Gaunt and Corbec, Major Rawne, Captain Ban Daur, a host of Sergeants and that's it. Surely there would be support Companies/Platoons with heavy weapons. I know the Tanith are light infantry specialists and the platoons have flamers, rocket launchers and auto-cannons integral to them but on a conventional battlefield without heavy support they would be ground down no matter how good they are.

Well, firstly there's that the Tanith are a light infantry regiment, specialising in stealth, infiltration, recon, etc... operations that would be impeded by having to haul around lots of heavy weapons & equipment. Also, Abnett seems better than most at representing the Guard as a combined arms entity, and that while the DM may wish to use segregated, singular regiments for logistical purposes, the IG as a whole will deploy a mixture of light, regular/heavy infantry, armour, mechanised and artillery regiments into any given war zone, so that each may support the other in achieving a common objective, just like in actual warfare. Therefore, the Tanith are most often than not depicted as being deployed either on a small section of a much larger battlefield where they have needed support from appropriate formations, or on more specialised covert ops where their stealth/scout expertise is required specifically for the objective at hand.

Secondly, as has been already addressed, as the books go on and the influx of new troopers rounds out their battlefield role a little, some of the organisational aspects you mention get tweaked/elaborated on by Abnett as he deems necessary.

 Somedude593 wrote:
Platoons are led by captains and squads are led by sergeants, the fact that he doesnt do this is probably he doesnt want to come up with a whole bunch of names for Captains and then completely ignore most of them

Again, platoons are led by junior officers (lieutenants), whereas middle/senior officers like captains and majors lead multiple platoons, such as companies/battalions.

The Tanith 1st originally numbered about 6000 men but that was the cobbled together remnants of the Tanith 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The were supposed to have armour, artillery and all the fixins but lost all the stuff in the fall of Tanith. Even at 6000 men they are considered an under strength regiment so the original regiments were probably over 6000 men.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Tanith 1st originally numbered about 6000 men but that was the cobbled together remnants of the Tanith 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The were supposed to have armour, artillery and all the fixins but lost all the stuff in the fall of Tanith. Even at 6000 men they are considered an under strength regiment so the original regiments were probably over 6000 men.

I thought it was three regiments @ 6000 men, represented by three daggers on the emblem. That means 2000 men a regiment, with approx 3000 saved = one slightly over-strength regiment, represented by one dagger and two removed/snapped daggers. It's been a long while since I read The Founding, though, so I may be mis-remembering.

Approximately 6000 is what remains of the survivors of the three regiments. You're right about the 3 daggers. IIRC they lose almost half of that 6000 just in their first few battles because they're still green.