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Got to play my first game with the new chaos codex the other night.

Using figures I've already got, I put together what I figured would be a fairly reasonable list.

HQ (Warlord) Lord, jump pack, lightning claws, 4++
Troops: 10 Chaos Marines, MoS, 2 meltaguns, champion has powerfist, icon of FnP.
Troops: 10 Noise Marines, blastmaster, 8 sonic blasters, champ has power sword, icon of FnP
Troops: 10 Noise Marines, blastmaster, 8 sonic blasters, champ has power fist, icon of FnP
Fast Attack: 10 Raptors, MoS, 2 meltaguns, Champion has powerfist, icon of FnP
Heavy: 2 Obliterators (MoN - blasphemy, but there you go, cause MoS is dumb on these guys)
Fortification: Defense line, quad gun.

My opponent is playing grey knights.

We roll up mission 1 (kill points), short table edge deployment. He's going first.

He deploys his two teleporting dreadknights right on his line, a small strike squad back in his deployment zone with an icarus gun, and puts Mordrak and 10 terminators in reserve. I deploy as far back in my zone as possible, screening the noise marines with the chaos marines. I reserve the lord and raptors to go hunting in his backfield and maybe avoid the terminators. He scouts the dreadknights forward.

turn 1
Both dreadknights use their jump and move right up to my guys. He drops Mordrak in off to the right. He puts a wound on an oblit with the icarus gun, and the terminator shooting kills all the chaos marines, The dreadknights take out a few noise marines with their flamers.

In response, I have both obliterators use plasma cannons and kill 6 of the ten terminators, and put two wounds on mordrak, who does get a ghost knight out of the deal. Figuring that needing 6's to wound the dreadknights, I instead have the noise marines fire on the terminators as well. Three more die, leaving just mordrak, one ghost knight, one psycannon knight.

Turn 2
Shooting largely doesn't matter, although the icarus cannon did kill the wounded oblit. The dreadknights assault both noise marine squads. I am forced to challenge, both my champions die in their challenges without doing any damage. My squads are stuck in combat.

My one oblit fires twin-linked plasma at the only available target, and kills the ghost knight. Assault sees dreadknights swat noise marines without fear of repercussion.

Turn 3
Assaults continue. Mordrak & friends kill the oblit. More noise marines die.

My lord still doesn't come out of reserve. Assault on my turn sees the last of the noise marines die, I lose the game with nothing left on the table.


At this point, I'm seriously having trouble finding any redemptive features about chaos in 6th ed.

Bad matchup. You didn't have enough AP2 to deal with the what, 20+(?) 2+ save wounds he had on the table.

If your lord had an AP2 close combat weapon and had been positioned to counter-charge, it might have had a different outcome.

Might... But, see, this is the problem with chaos now. All the AP2 melee weapons go at I1. I can't hide them in the squad, I have to challenge, so they get whacked before they swing. And, if I'm playing at all fluffy, it makes no sense to have my Slaanesh guys swinging at I1.

Yeah, it's a bad matchup, and 20 2+ wounds in assault range will mess up a lot of armies, but I'm having trouble seeing where to make changes. Compared to the old codexes, my noise marine squads cost more because I need 10 men to get the blastmaster now, whereas I could run proper 6 man squads before. I could spam obliterators, I guess, but how much fun is that? I'm just not feeling this codex to be much fun (or good)

It's definitely got issues. Sadly I don't see multiple squads with blastmasters as a good option at this point level. Leaves you too naked against 2+ save spam.

Daemon allies can also potentially help. Screamers are awesome, albeit out of theme for your Slaanesh army. A pile of cheap Daemonettes and/or a low-options Slaaneshi daemon prince might also be of help.

You could have 9 Obliterators with MoN....that could have solve some of your problems

That's a lot of points for nine models in a 1500 point list. I have not had much problems so far versus the new CSM with my GK - it does seem like a bad match up in general.

GK are brutal against both flavors of chaos. It's kind of fluffy, but doesn't make for a very good game.

As I look through the Chaos Codex I see Nurgle as the only competitive choice. Taking that out of the equation though have you considered spamming plasma weapons? Chosen can get up to 5 plasma guns per unit coming in at a cool 165pts (with no Mark though). Plague Marines get 2 plasma guns per 5 man unit + a combi weapon on the champion. Bikes and Raptors get the same deal though my preference would be the Bikers. AP2 on practically every unit means you have the capability to deal with TeQ and S7 spammed means you can deal with fliers. MoN on these units just gives resilience, as well as making Plague Marines scoring. I would actually consider Melta on any Bikes thanks to their speed, but your local meta may alter what is required.

If you want to stick to Slaanesh you are simply going to come up short I fear. I have no real opinion or experience with them, but perhaps infiltrating (thanks to Huron or Ahriman) and letting rip with a max squad of 20 may do some nice things? Honestly they look like they were designed to knock out Hordes in my eyes and crumble vs TeQ.

Best of luck.

forgefiend with ectoplasma ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also 20 noise marines may be a good option the idea being putting so many wounds on the 2+sv that they are bound to fail a few. other options are hellbrutes they can take Pcannons and perhaps a unitof havocs with plasmas in a rhino


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also power mauls might be better again the idea being putting enough wounds that they fail one

Or you can try melta or plasma chosen/havocs having those definatly helps.

Not enough Berserkers !!!

I have a small question, was mordrak in a normal unit of terminators?

If playing slaanesh with sonic weapons, I guess that a sorcerer is kinda mandatory to get the +1 STR power and cripple an unit a turn by focusing on it.
Even terminators will fall vs massed STR 5 hits.

I used to like a 5 man chosen squad in a rhino with 5 plasma guns to handle heavy armour, but the loss of infiltration (unless uring arhiman/huron or having a lucky warlord trait) kinda hurts.
I might use terminators squads with combi plasmas and power axes instead; they're not that expensive for the pain they can deliver.

Still waiting for Chaos Space Marines to win a single proper battle report, does any body have a link to such a battle report? This battle didn't even seem to demand any strategic thinking from the Grey Knights player. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

Need more plasma. A good old CSM squad with 2 Plasmaguns and a PW Champ would have been better, tack on VotLW and a Fearless Icon if needed. Noise marines are pretty bad in the MEQ heavy environment.

You don't need more AP2 in close combat you need it in shooting, this is 6th edition... shoot, shoot some more, reload, shoot, overwatch shoot, THEN fight in assault.

Valek wrote:I have a small question, was mordrak in a normal unit of terminators?

Yes, why?

BladeWalker wrote:Need more plasma. A good old CSM squad with 2 Plasmaguns and a PW Champ would have been better

Better than? Better than the two melta squad I had? But they died before they fired a shot, so having plasma instead of melta wouldn't have made a difference.

Noise marines are pretty bad in the MEQ heavy environment.

Noise marines are not bad in a MEQ environment. A S8 AP3 Blast that ignores cover is designed to kill MEQ, as is an AP3 heavy flamer. Noise marines struggle against 2+ saves, they do great against MEQ. And even 2+ saves fail to enough dice, which sonic weapons can bring. It's the T6 2+ save models that forced the issue.

How did you lose an entire squad in cover with FNP to 10 terminators shooting?

Valid points on the Noise Marines but I think Plasmaguns would help with 3+ or 2+ (and T6) while giving you a 30" range. It sound like you just lined up and gave him targets when you knew he could teleport.

Transports suck but had you been inside rhinos you would not have been an immediate target while getting in position a bit better maybe?

 BladeWalker wrote:
How did you lose an entire squad in cover with FNP to 10 terminators shooting?

Well, he had a power that let him re-roll misses, from an attached inquisitor. So there's that. And he had the S5 psybolt bolters. Cover, in this case, just didn't seem that relevant, given that I got a 3+ without it. How did I lose them? I rolled that many 1's and 2's, obviously, and failed to make the FnP saves. FnP isn't what it was last edition.

Valid points on the Noise Marines but I think Plasmaguns would help with 3+ or 2+ (and T6) while giving you a 30" range. It sound like you just lined up and gave him targets when you knew he could teleport.

Given that any actual shooting I had was done in a one turn window, and that, being able to teleport, he could have gotten to me wherever I was, how would you have deployed? In 5th, I would have all-reserved, let him put his grandmaster somewhere, and focused on the more mobile threat. 6th edition removes this answer to an army that's designed to be in your face on turn 1.

It's just another reason that I'm simply not having fun playing 6th ed. I've had no 6th ed games with any sort of tactical depth, and lots of games that ended up being put models out and roll dice, in one way or another. I've had more 6th ed games come down to army mismatches or First Blood in the few months that it has been out than I had in the several years that 5th edition was in play.

The point on having Mordrak with the Regular Terminators is that Mordrak is not an Independent Character and cannot join other units while other I.C.'s can attach to Mordrak and his Ghost Knights.

With that said, those 10 Terminators with Mordrak and Inquisitor wouldn't have happened. At most he would have had the Inquisitor, Mordrak and Ghost Knights come in turn 1 while the other 10 would have to Footslog it or Deep Strike starting Turn 2.

With regards to Ap2 close combat weapons for Chaos being I1. I may be mistaken but doesn't the axe of Blind Fury for Khorn strike at normal Initiative while being AP2 and a Daemon weapon?

 Unholy_Martyr wrote:
The point on having Mordrak with the Regular Terminators is that Mordrak is not an Independent Character and cannot join other units while other I.C.'s can attach to Mordrak and his Ghost Knights.

I didn't realize that. I'll have to let my opponent know.

With regards to Ap2 close combat weapons for Chaos being I1. I may be mistaken but doesn't the axe of Blind Fury for Khorn strike at normal Initiative while being AP2 and a Daemon weapon?

I've no idea, playing Slaanesh, I didn't spend much time looking at Khorne-only stuff, you know.

Gotya, well I'll look around but I agree there is a lack of AP2 generally in the codex with exceptions of lower initiative options.

With that said, being thrifty on troops opens up realms of supporting firepower units such as Ectoplasma Fiends, Obliterators (which you already know about) and regular Chaos Space Marines to supplement your AP2 firepower.

Overall, I'm finding 6th edition to be about finding sweet spots and fighting more for the secondary objectives than the actual primary objectives.

As for the Mordrak/Terminator mistake, only reason I picked up on it is because several guys have tried that and I have to break their heart by pointing out he is a Character model only.

Black Mace Slaanesh Demon Prince (no wings) is relatively cheap, relatively fast with +3" run and Fleet, and kills things dead.

A KoS is arguably just as good though, and demonettes + Fiends + Chariots + soul gringers or whatever complement your dudes pretty easily.

Slaanesh Bikers seem like they could be of use - quite durable, and can pick up Plasma Guns to help against things like Dreadknights. You could also invest in some Havoc squads, who can bust out decently priced Autocannons or Lascannons, both of which are handy - and while they can't get Blastmasters, you can always take a 6 man squad and give them marks, for a reasonable price.

As others have mentioned, the match-up wasn't strictly legal, given you normally wouldn't have had all those terminators in your face right away. I also think that you may have been better served to use your Obliterators to focus on the Dreadknights, given you didn't have much else that could hurt them. Finally, if you hadn't reserved your main CC force, that might have been handy as well. Specifically, I think that relying on Power Fist champs to counter CC threats will usually end badly - I'm much more a fan of having some points invested in a solid CC threat that can serve as a counter-attacker to protect your gunline.

The best AP2 options are generally Kharn or a Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury, sadly. No awesome daemon weapons for Slaanesh - though you could snag a Murder Sword to be able to hunt down 1 specific threat each game. Or instead of dual Lightning Claws, take 1 Lightning Claw and 1 Power Fist, so you still get +1 attacks, and can choose whichever is more useful in a given round of combat.

Other options include Daemon Princes (pricy, but as long as you don't let them get shot to pieces, can handle most CC threats that get close.) Or you can just infest in a bunch of cultists to serve as an extra screen in front of your more valuable guys. Or potentially just invest in some allies who can handle AP2 for you.

Overall, I don't think the codex is going to be unstoppable by any means. But I wouldn't take the results of a single game - in which you had a bad match-up, bad luck with reserves, and an opponent that unintentionally was breaking the rules in a way that gave them a huge advantage.

On paper- i5 with a powersword, fnp and 3+ save is saweeeet. but icon of excess just isnt as good as it looks. Ive been considering running slannesh csm troops in my list but when i do the list and look at the points... well lets just say you rep doesnt encourage me.

I like for troops: plague bearers in cover, big cultist blobs hiding/screening, cheap csm footslogger units or plague marines(if you have or can afford a plague lord). Sorry if thats not slanneshie enough for you :(

I dont think a pure Slannesh list is gonna be properly competitive this ed and if you wanna have fun... dont play vs gk ...

I wouldnt ditch this list or approach- hang in there- try find some orcs or nids to test on OR just play other csm codex armies: weaker dex vs weaker dex = fun game? (weaker might not be the right word for it... newer maybe...)

I'd consider getting some psychics in the list, maybe try a sorceror or DP instead of the lord and raptors? Also, deamon allies for slaanesh synergize amazingly well with their csm counterparts, specifically pavane+blastmasters. Pavane can also force back those dreadknights a bit and help with unfavorable charges. Cheap scoring deamonettes might also provide the backfield harass your looking for instead of those raptors. Lastly a codex deamons deamon prince with wings is great as it provides a real annoyance for your opponent.

Just some suggestions, I think this style list can work it just needs the right tools and some finesse. You were playing against a bad matchup so dont give up hope as not everyone is playing multiple dreadknights backed up by a squad of 10 prescienced gk termies.

Chaospling, I did a bat-rep of a mostly khorne list vs a semi silver tide necron list that CSM won, link is here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/482982.page

TBH, grey knights suck for chaos in general unless you are spamming plasma. Even if you get into combat everything he has AP3 so you just melt. Also, TWO scouting, jumping, 2+/5++ monstrous creatures is extremely hard to deal with, especially if he gets first turn. The one thing that would have wrecked his face would be a Prince with the black mace (would have gibbed a dreadknight each turn). You could even make him DoS if you wanted (since you have to pick something

make your Noise Marines into a single squad of 20 with 2 blastmasters and take a sorcerer lvl 3 and put everything into biomancy and pray to god that you get the Relentless, FnP one and group him with your noise marines, Not sure that you'd want 10 raptors.