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What do we all make of it?
The mental health care system costs the tax payer a lot of money and the residents see little to none of it spent on them and are abused and neglected.

It needs to be reformed in my opinion, this matter has directly affected me and i'm considering legal action.

Anyway didn't want to write reems so I leave the floor open for discussion.
Couldn't find the link to the investigation or ones like it.

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys...

Pay the lowest wages and you only attract lowest education levels or cheap immigrant labour with different social attitudes. This is what you get. The same thing is happening to the elderly.

I would agree, but these systems cost 130,000 a year per person wouldn't you think that you could afford better staff?

The joke was that they just hired enough people at cheap so they could restrain every single person on premises, starting to wonder if that has a shred of truth.

So how would you reform it so it provides good care and is cost effective?

Mental care just in UK right? Not involving the US right? Are we comparing the two? If so what demographic?

Yes, just in the UK. Not sure on your US system, much the same perhaps.

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
What do we all make of it?
The mental health care system costs the tax payer a lot of money and the residents see little to none of it spent on them and are abused and neglected.

It needs to be reformed in my opinion, this matter has directly affected me and i'm considering legal action.

Anyway didn't want to write reems so I leave the floor open for discussion.
Couldn't find the link to the investigation or ones like it.

DOn't known nuttin about no mental health system in the UK. Details?

When I started this post It was from my phone, so now i'm on a computer I can write a bit more and find some articles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8549228/BBC-Panorama-care-home-investigation-four-arrested.html

He said: "The behaviour of the individuals was cruel and barbaric and the management seemed to be either complicit or non-existent. So it was scandalous and the home should be shut down."

Footage recorded by an undercover reporter shows staff goading patients to commit suicide, punching and slapping them in the face, subjecting them to cold showers and pinning them to the ground with chairs.

After the incident Wayne tells the undercover reporter: "The only things you have to watch out for if you do do this is make sure you don't have her pinched underneath the chair. I pinched her skin and sat on it and left a bit of a mark."

It's the behaviour in question, the system is pretty much you go to your council and ask for support on the individual then if your passed then government pays a large amount of money (One report said around £3000 a week) then the individual is sent to a private "hospital" or "care home" which a company owns and then are "cared" for.
The system is highly corrupt in my opinion and experience, the government has things like ofsted for specialist schooling and other bodies like it for the hospitals and so on, they come in and ignore the patients and students and listen only to the staff, perhaps they're even paid off to give a good report.
The people in theese homes don't see any of this £3000 it goes to a nice paycheck for the corporations owners.

(Found a better link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13617196

Anyway see what you think.

(My experience is with the schooling system for aspergers and autism, different as we're more credible and less vunerable but still not listened to needs to become not private or better regulated)

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
I would agree, but these systems cost 130,000 a year per person wouldn't you think that you could afford better staff?

it costs 130,000 a year per person, but AFAIK the mental health care is largely privately run (but paid by the taxpayer). Since their #1 priority is to turn a healthly profit, paying minimum wage means they get to keep a healthy portion of that 130,000 per person per year cheque.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
I would agree, but these systems cost 130,000 a year per person wouldn't you think that you could afford better staff?

it costs 130,000 a year per person, but AFAIK the mental health care is largely privately run (but paid by the taxpayer). Since their #1 priority is to turn a healthly profit, paying minimum wage means they get to keep a healthy portion of that 130,000 per person per year cheque.

Therein lies the problem, certain things should be nationalised as noone should be making profits off of providing the bare minimum(and in a lot of cases far less) of care to the disabled, mentally ill, elderly or children.

 dæl wrote:

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 InquisitorVaron wrote:
I would agree, but these systems cost 130,000 a year per person wouldn't you think that you could afford better staff?

it costs 130,000 a year per person, but AFAIK the mental health care is largely privately run (but paid by the taxpayer). Since their #1 priority is to turn a healthly profit, paying minimum wage means they get to keep a healthy portion of that 130,000 per person per year cheque.

Therein lies the problem, certain things should be nationalised as noone should be making profits off of providing the bare minimum(and in a lot of cases far less) of care to the disabled, mentally ill, elderly or children.

The problem is that Nationalised institutions are facing money problems as well.

This

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-20135326

Amongst others.

A small part of the problem is the way the NHS and care organisations are screwed by suppliers, entering lengthy contracts, such as PFI deals where staple, everyday items, are given whooping markups.

Your basic rubber glove is around £3.50 per 100 and yet suppliers are in cahoots and supplying the same technical spec ay anywhere from £10.00 to £20.00 per 100. There is no real competition. Phantom specifications made up by suppliers to ensure low cost bids cannot compete.

The problems also comes from the wrong people getting qualified to act as care assistants. Nursing and care used to be a vocation. Now, even the acquisition of qualification is monetized with upteen care NVQ and other awards out there. It could be seen as an easy qualification so when you have many more people qualified experience counts for nothing Employers and these private firms can get 'good enough' applicants.

A small part of the problem is the way the NHS and care organisations are screwed by suppliers, entering lengthy contracts, such as PFI deals where staple, everyday items, are given whooping markups.

Your basic rubber glove is around £3.50 per 100 and yet suppliers are in cahoots and supplying the same technical spec ay anywhere from £10.00 to £20.00 per 100. There is no real competition. Phantom specifications made up by suppliers to ensure low cost bids cannot compete.

I actually live in Worcester, so its a little funny you picked that hospital.

Frankly if companies are found to be extorting the NHS they should have the full weight of the law brought against them, as should the NHS buyers if they are found to be colluding with the companies. It's disgusting that these firms are charging such prices when the NHS is allowing people to die because they cannot afford the drugs needed.

It's criminal to do such a thing really, my experience involved being not given food for over a week because I wouldn't obey their commands.
Amongst other instances, soon I might be able to take legal action, once I gather the money required,

 Mr. Burning wrote:


A small part of the problem is the way the NHS and care organisations are screwed by suppliers, entering lengthy contracts, such as PFI deals where staple, everyday items, are given whooping markups.

I think this is also in part due to what I perceive to be this public-sector 'culture' of wastefulness, which is blatant and inescapably obvious in most public sector organisations, If I was in charge of the NHS, and someone said to me 'we will supply you with rubber gloves for £20 per 100' and I knew that the average price of a box of 100 was £3.50, I would tell them to jog on and find a cheaper supplier, you don't need to be some sort of business tycoon to work it out. Does anyone recall the story a while ago about the 'prescription' gluten-free bread which could be purchased in a supermarket for about £2, but cost the NHS something like £8 per loaf?, if that was the case I would give them £2 and the address of the local supermarket, instead of buying in to some glarily extortionate contract.

But our public sector seems to think that they have to glumly accept a wasteful and inefficient deal because they are an organisation and not a business

Since public servants are paid a set salary, and there is little in the way of bonuses or overtime to top that up, kickbacks from supplies is one of the only way to supplement a manager's income.

As for neglect and similar, what kind of person is going to want to work as a carer? Shifts are long, the work is often considered by most as disgusting, and you get little chance to have a social life outside work.
It's usually low paid, and requires few qualifications.
So, even though most people who care for non-family members are hard-working, hoping to make some kind of difference, I expect a few who get the job just do not want to be there.
If they're 'having fun' with the patients, they need to be taken out of the job, and dealt with. I doubt there's a Hypocratic Oath taken by care staff, yet they are doing a similar job to medical workers.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Since public servants are paid a set salary, and there is little in the way of bonuses or overtime to top that up, kickbacks from supplies is one of the only way to supplement a manager's income.

As for neglect and similar, what kind of person is going to want to work as a carer? Shifts are long, the work is often considered by most as disgusting, and you get little chance to have a social life outside work.
It's usually low paid, and requires few qualifications.
So, even though most people who care for non-family members are hard-working, hoping to make some kind of difference, I expect a few who get the job just do not want to be there.
If they're 'having fun' with the patients, they need to be taken out of the job, and dealt with. I doubt there's a Hypocratic Oath taken by care staff, yet they are doing a similar job to medical workers.

Some parts are true others are not. They do get overtime that's substantial and some people actually want to work there, a very small portion.
Wouldn't it make sense to have a better selection process, pay more have fewer but better staff and stop being taken for mugs by these buisnesses?

The problem is the corruption and the oppression at the people not being able to speak out, the staff and the establishment I went to were scared of me, because I wasn't a vunerable easy to push about student my family cared about me because I wasn't some crazed loon.
They were wary when I was there, because I called them up on every offhand comment or some othersuch insulting thing they did or opressing a student (Such as taking away possesions until they do everything they're told) hence why they starved me, therefore I couldn't have enough energy to pursue them and pretty much slept all day and night.

I lived like a zombie, I lost a two stone a week at the worst point. Yet due to all the oppression for example taking my phone monitoring my calls taking people aside (For example a NHS doctor was called in and told I was starving myself to prove a point) and fabricating a story. My parents believed it all and it took me two years of pleading and so on to get me out.
After summer when I went home and was fed properly the first day I came back they pinned me down because I now had the strength to resist any attempts at anoying me. I gained a black bruise where they held my arm down so tightly. I just ignored them as not to give them the satisifaction.

No one listens because you've got Aspergers and since hardly anyone understands it they think that your some loon after reading these worst case people online.
The condition is a spectrum yet the officials on the subject bandy you all together, for example someone "stole some headphones" (He didn't a staff member had and pinned it on him) so the enraged kid threw boiling water over him giving him severe burns, from that point on the kettles were locked away, the kitchens were locked up staff had to watch every movement you made blah blah.

It's no better than a prison if not worse.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:


A small part of the problem is the way the NHS and care organisations are screwed by suppliers, entering lengthy contracts, such as PFI deals where staple, everyday items, are given whooping markups.

I think this is also in part due to what I perceive to be this public-sector 'culture' of wastefulness, which is blatant and inescapably obvious in most public sector organisations, If I was in charge of the NHS, and someone said to me 'we will supply you with rubber gloves for £20 per 100' and I knew that the average price of a box of 100 was £3.50, I would tell them to jog on and find a cheaper supplier, you don't need to be some sort of business tycoon to work it out. Does anyone recall the story a while ago about the 'prescription' gluten-free bread which could be purchased in a supermarket for about £2, but cost the NHS something like £8 per loaf?, if that was the case I would give them £2 and the address of the local supermarket, instead of buying in to some glarily extortionate contract.

But our public sector seems to think that they have to glumly accept a wasteful and inefficient deal because they are an organisation and not a business

As part of the PFI contracts there is a list of accepted suppliers. They cannot order elsewhere for the duration of these contracts. Which is why private companies collude during bidding processes. It keeps costs artificially high for everyone.

I read a report that ectasy could be a miracle cure for depression and in small doses could save the UK and USA millions per year in not only cash,but time off work with depression. Sadly, because of the stigma associated with a drug that causes less harm than booze, plus the profits to be made with depression pills, it's unlikely to see the light of day as a viable cure.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:


A small part of the problem is the way the NHS and care organisations are screwed by suppliers, entering lengthy contracts, such as PFI deals where staple, everyday items, are given whooping markups.

I think this is also in part due to what I perceive to be this public-sector 'culture' of wastefulness, which is blatant and inescapably obvious in most public sector organisations, If I was in charge of the NHS, and someone said to me 'we will supply you with rubber gloves for £20 per 100' and I knew that the average price of a box of 100 was £3.50, I would tell them to jog on and find a cheaper supplier, you don't need to be some sort of business tycoon to work it out. Does anyone recall the story a while ago about the 'prescription' gluten-free bread which could be purchased in a supermarket for about £2, but cost the NHS something like £8 per loaf?, if that was the case I would give them £2 and the address of the local supermarket, instead of buying in to some glarily extortionate contract.

But our public sector seems to think that they have to glumly accept a wasteful and inefficient deal because they are an organisation and not a business

From my experience working in and with public sector company's it is not that way at all. There is 4 things I have seen behind most waste:

1) Lies by the media. For example, the gluten-free bread stuff. GF bread is normally around £3 a loaf, and yes some pharmacists were paying up to £8 per loaf. The problem being that the media were comparing the cost in a supermarket for cheapest own brand to the cost to a small pharmacist where they were having to buy from a large company and then paying shipping costs like the rest of us as they were ordering 5-6 a month rather than thousands. Unfortunatly some people who need GF food cannot buy it from the supermarket because they store it so poorly (keeping it with bread means it gets covered in flour and is no longer gluten free.

2) Constant shifting of the goal posts. No company would be would manage with if the directors did the constant fiddling and changes to aims that politicians insist on doing. You spend half your time back tracking on what you have already done because the minister, MP, councilor etc in charge has had some new idea.

3) Often people are running way under staffed and under funded so it is no surprise when staff often don't give a crap. The last public sector job I had I was in a team of 10. It should have been 15 but we had lost people and had a recruitment freeze on. We were basically patching up and treading water. Oddly enough we were not always able to get the job done, and our job was protecting the councils income. We made money for the council, but were not a politically "good" department. The same happens in, say, the NHS. "Paper pushing Bureaucrats" are cut because papers tell MPs that they are a waste of time. Doctors and Nurses end up having to take on paperwork and surprise surprise having a medical degree dose not qualify you as an accountant.

4) Yes, there is some waste, like any company, but to dismiss public sector workers as wasteful is rubbish. Too often they are trying there damdist to do a good job despite all of the problems.

Most of the problems are down to the way the media portray things. Take for example your comment about gloves. You will get a story saying "NHS PAYS £20 FOR GLOVES!". It will ignore the background where these gloves cost that much because it was the only supplier who could deliver next day as the hospital was short due to a major incident, or the example of the bread where of course a major supermarket in London is going to have less costs than a pharmacist on Shetland. They choose to ignore the fact that the UK has some of the lowest costs for drugs in the world (The NHS pays around 1/2 the price of much of europe for most drugs and around 1/4 the price of the US).

Don't beleave everything you see about how bad the public sector is.