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Ok, I really like Infinity Models and TAGs. All the models are great which makes my faction decision a big problem. In other games, I like having the least number of models to easily manage my actions. I know this is a disadvantage BUT factions with the least number of models usually have higher defense (tanks) or higher attacks (heavy hitters). I love long range attacks (snipers) as support. SO, my questions to all you Infinity players, which faction best matches my play style? Which starter should I get?

Most factions will have options for you to field minimal amounts of models.

As for starter box I'd guess at probably the PanO Knights sectorial. I'm pretty sure that box is quite high in points. Although I'm not sure if you can field a TAG with them!

Hmm...

This is quite an open ended question really! Maybe just get on to the Devils army builder program and have a play. Thats where i tend to start when i'm starting a new project!

 Warlord Imp wrote:
Ok, I really like Infinity Models and TAGs. All the models are great which makes my faction decision a big problem. In other games, I like having the least number of models to easily manage my actions. I know this is a disadvantage BUT factions with the least number of models usually have higher defense (tanks) or higher attacks (heavy hitters). I love long range attacks (snipers) as support. SO, my questions to all you Infinity players, which faction best matches my play style? Which starter should I get?

Well since the most basic weapon in the game have and will destory the highest "tanks" in the game without much problem, and the "weaker" forces have some of the best snipers, thinking like that will not work. But, if you want a force with a high point cost models ALEPH or CA is the way to go, you will still get crub stomped if you try to go the small model count route. Way becouse each unit has it own tricks, but there are many ways to counter every trick in the game. The more models the more options, the more options the better you can handle all the things that will get thrown at you.

I'd say that going elite is perfectly viable - as long as the elite units are varied. You can't take five of the same, that way your opponent will have a trick to counter you. Take five different elite guys so you can counter his tricks.
That said, no faction can't do elite (all factions can do elite). Aleph and CA seems to do it the most, but Military Orders is another good example of an elite army.

 Warlord Imp wrote:
I like having the least number of models to easily manage my actions. I know this is a disadvantage BUT factions with the least number of models usually have higher defense (tanks) or higher attacks (heavy hitters).

As Noir and others have pointed out, in Infinity this can go beyond 'this is a disadvantage' and into 'this game isn't fun to play because I keep getting outmanoeuvred'. If you're at an Order disadvantage of more than 2-3 then to some extent it doesn't matter how elite your models are.

Indeed, since the number of models you field pull double duty as boots on the ground and valuable meta-resource Infinity can be really hard to play if you don't load up on a goodly number of boots. At the same time, almost any army in the game can create a force of 3-5 minis at large point values but few are well served by trying it. A lot of this has to do with the way the order system works, when you spend an order from your pool it can go to anyone and you are not limited to a single order per model. So that small force of 4-5 guys (who will often be the kinds of things you want to spend a lot of orders on like TAGs) will get outmaneuvered and hammered by an army with ten orders and only a couple of really tough/powerful units.

Winning with very low-count lists is not impossible, but it is not something a new player should drop right in to. It takes delving in to utilizing the power of link teams and as such is a more limited tactic that can often blow up in your face despite its advantages in order efficiency.

But with all that said there is no reason Infinity can't broadly fit your playstyle. It just wont necessarily fit in with being composed of the least number of units, but rather it will try to possess a high number of tough choices.

To this end most forces can do this pretty well:

- PanOceania's Military Orders sectorial (think of them as a sub-faction) have a lot of heavy infantry choices and can link many of them in to teams (which is helpful).
- Most PanOceania lists have access to one or more large battlesuits (called TAGs) that can work well as tough centerpieces in your force.
- Yu Jing has a lot of esoteric heavy infantry choices and both of its sectorials (Japanese and Imperial Service) have options for large link teams made entirely of heavy troops.
- Aleph and the Combined army are both "elite" forces that have to be careful to get up to their point limit. They both contain units whose sole purpose is to give an order but are not, otherwise, active units (basically AI beacons). Both forces contain things that could be considered ungodly armoured monstrosities.

Nomads, Haqqislam and Ariadna tend to be a bit on the lighter side, but even they can do some pretty tough armies (the Corregidor sectorial of the Nomads has recently gained access to cheap TAGs that they can load up on for example... no models yet).

As a guideline though 150 point games (usual for people just starting out) work best with at least 5-6 models in a list. At 200 points 7-8 is a good model-count target. At 250 you can do 8-10 pretty easily and in 300 points getting 9-10 models is a pretty good idea. If you want to make a horde-style army (rare in Infinity as most forces are considered to be small and elite) then trying to hit a minimum of 16 models is suggested. More experienced players can play around with this a bit more, but even they will tend to stick to these model counts (as they not only work but are fairly natural fits as well).

In the end all Infinity armies are considered small and elite as it is. The only difference is, really, what makes up your selection of specialists. Some people take a lot of heavily armed and armoured troops with a smattering of lighter ones, some take a bunch of light specialists that focus on stealth or mobility, and yet others mix the two approaches. And most armies can perform any of the above with ease.

 Warlord Imp wrote:
In other games, I like having the least number of models to easily manage my actions.

Bear in mind, Infinity is a little different to a lot of games.
Actions are achieved by spending "Orders". Each model provides an order, but the orders of Regular (capital R) models can be used by other models in the same combat group.

This is a little odd at first, but imagine it as the order "donor" providing support like extra eyes and ears, as well as holding the fort so there's an escape route and intercepting flankers - thus allowing the active models to spend less time worrying about that and more time actually fighting.

It is, therefore, quite possible to create a force where you just have 2 or 3 really heavy hitters, with the rest of the force largely there to provide an Order pool for them to spend. This is a tactic largely known as "Ramboing" - and it can work... but does need to be played with some intelligence, because its basic form is usually one of the first things a player uses meaning veteran players learn to counter that very effectively.
It is also pretty vulnerable to critical rolls on your opponent's reaction orders! Crits are rare, but very powerful - they will win any dice-off (save the other model rolling a higher crit), wounding any model (no matter how skilled or tough). Any plan reliant on not losing certain models to random misfortune is more than a bit of a gamble.

Still, with those drawbacks said, a "Rambo" list will provide you with largely what you want - a relatively small "offensive force" - but it will give it enough Orders to do things, as giving you extra models to provide more reaction orders in your opponent's active turn and thus limit his ability to manoeuvre around the flanks of your central force.

~~~~~

If you really want to know my recommendation though - don't buy a starter. Yet, anyway.

Download the quick start rules, find someone willing to give it a go, get some proxies, cover a table in a gamut of terrain, then play a couple of games with some basic models to start getting the feel for the rules. Maybe then play a game or two a bit bigger with more of the rules. Once you do that, you'll have a much better idea of how the game works and the pros/cons of certain tactics.

From there, you'll be much better informed. But, in the long run, my suggestion for which force to use will always be the old chestnut of "whichever models you like most". Infinity is a game well enough balanced that all factions and models can pull their weight, so why not buy the ones you actually like?

Thanks for all the input guys. In all honesty, when I started a game called Dark Age, I was also told about the correct balance of activations but, true to my playstyle, I went with trying to field the least number of figures. My faction was the Brood and I chose 1 big figure and built around that figure. I actually did this pretty good as I did actually earned my entry to the March to Immortality tournament beating a swarm army in the last round.

So, looking at Infinity, I was thinking of either Yu-Jing or Pan-Oceania. Both this factions have really amazing models and their TAGs look really good. I would not go with either faction IF i hear that they tend to be "swarm-y". Meaning, if what Ronin_eX is true that the most model count at 300 points is about 10 models (hopefully one maybe 2 of the models would be a TAGs), I can live with that. The most "grunt" type of models I hope to keep their max at 3 figures. Even if I have to make the rest Elites to keep down the number of "grunt" type models.

Any suggestions on a good starting build for PanOceania or Yu-Jing. All the posts I have read all say that we should not buy the starter.

 Warlord Imp wrote:
In all honesty, when I started a game called Dark Age, I was also told about the correct balance of activations but, true to my playstyle, I went with trying to field the least number of figures.

I would definitely warn you off the "I ignored people before and it turned out okay" approach - what makes you think what went okay with one game system is somehow going to apply to any game system?
Low model count lists really suffer in Infinity, and are about the only exception to the "It's not your list" rule. Infinity was not balanced with this kind of play in mind.

Also, why always stick with the same approach in every game? When going into a new game system, I never base my choice off what I've done before (and often actively avoid similar styles). I'm playing a new game to do something different, not more of the same!

But, my ultimate point is, if you're going to reject one of our core pieces of advice, it's not really worth asking us what we think a good starting build is.
We're not going to recommend the outnumbered list you want - nor could we. We don't walk into games using tactics we know are unreliable, so we don't have reference for what a "good build" is for those tactics.

If you're prepared to listen to more conventional wisdom, my recommended starting build is set out above - play some simple proxy games. This will let you get the basics down, such that when you're not still struggling with them when it comes to the point you have to cope with how the more complex rules work.

After that... forget all the rules you've ever learnt from other games about there being "good builds" or "bad builds". Infinity doesn't really deal in such things, it's well enough balanced that the only real list creation rules are "Don't have too few orders" and "Don't spam one unit or tactic, make sure you've got options".

Options... I basically just describe that as thinking of your list as "The squad" (TM) from most action movies. You'll have characters mostly fitted into distinct roles - usually some combination (sometimes even in the same person) of a Leader, Heavy Weapons guy, Sniper, Stealth expert, Scout, CQB expert, Tech guy, the Medic, someone built like a brick outhouse, the guy who takes a knife to a gunfight (and makes it work), Demo expert, a few regular riflemen who still have a service record and honours list as long as their leg*...
*The thing to remember in Infinity is that even what we see as the least powerful models have been hand-picked for the mission. They're not FNGs, they're the best - maybe not the best of the best (that's a role for the more expensive models), but they've still got it when push comes to shove; these guys can and will hand the power armoured elites their butts with a little luck.

That sort of idea basically sets up the concept of having variety in your selections and leaving yourself with a range of options for any eventuality.

Really, it's better for YOU to come up with a suggestion (at least for which models you'd like to include, if possible) and see what we think. We don't know which specific models you like most, and that is really one of the main factors in deciding what's the right list to buy.

~~~~~

In the long run, all I can really say about choosing a list, is that if you get into it, you will almost certainly want to keep changing them.
Perhaps you get an idea for a new tactic. Perhaps you want to take some odd combination to give yourself a challenge (actually a good idea, as learning how to improvise with what you've got is a valuable skill) . Perhaps you just want to use a specific model you've not used for a while.

I dunno, marko.
He seems hell-bent on ignoring conventional wisdom, getting burned REAL bad when it blows up in his face, and then hating on the game we all love because it doesn't play like he envisions it to.

I've tried converting players - and they go and play a 'trial' game at the local FLGS (which is never open when I'm available - my free days are mondays and it's never open) using a 40k game's worth of terrain on a 6x4 table. They get shot to pieces and call the ARO system broken because they aren't playing it right (although it should be noted that as 40k players, their tables tend to resemble planet bowling ball anyway, so in a way - they DO play infinity with more terrain ... )

200 points, 2 models:

PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 2/Irrs: 0):

SQUALO MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / (101 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:18 BS:15 PH:17 WIP:12 ARM:8 BTS:-6 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
ECM, Lieutenant

DRÃGAO Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / (94 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:18 BS:15 PH:17 WIP:12 ARM:8 BTS:-6 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
ECM


195 Points | SWC: 4

ARMY CODE: eNozMlQ1MlAzUjOsMTJSM1AzBAAaggMn Army Infinity v.3.0.

R.

EDIT - I'd actually love to play this army, just to see what it would be like.

I'm with the others but I would say Aleph, Combined Army, Yu Jing with a lot of HI, and then PanO Military orders.

Try not to dog pile the new guy everyone. You may note that he said he is cool with 10-models at 300 points. He just wants to keep the bog standard grunts low. This should be dead easy (I tend not to go too far over 3 line infantry in most lists myself). And since you noted PanO and Yu Jing then here are a few possible lists to think about:

Imperial Service (299 points, 4.5 SWC, 9 Orders)
1 Celestial Guard Lt. 13|0
1 Celestial Guard 13|0
1 Celestial Guard (Kuang Shi Control Device) 13|0.5
1 Wu Ming w/ HMG 43|2
2 Wu Ming w/ Combi Rifle+E/Mitter 36|0 ea.
1 Wu Ming w/ MULTI Rifle+LGL 47|0
1 Hsien w/ HMG 61|2
1 Sophotect 31|0
2 Yaozao 3|0 ea.

This one fields nine guys of which 5 are heavy infantry and one has an effective two wounds due to No Wound Incapacitation. The three Celestial Guard are your basic dudes (and one is the lieutenant). The other one with the control device will provide smoke cover for the Hsien who is able to fire through smoke. You will have a big block of heavies that form something called a Link Team in the form of the Wu Ming (their boxed set is coming out this month). The Link Team should make this force more order efficient which makes the 9 orders in question not too bad for a pool. The two Yaozao are basically helpers for the Sophotect that allow him to remotely work on troops in different locations, they don't provide orders, but are merely remote devices for use by the Sophotect.

Military Orders (299 points, 3.5 SWC, 9 Orders)
2 Magister Knights w/ Panzerfaust 27|0 ea.
2 Magister Knights w/ Panzerfaust+Shotgun 31|0 ea.
1 Magister Knight w/ Missile Launcher 49|1.5
1 Fusilier 10|0
1 Fusilier Lt. 10|0
1 Specialist Sergeant (TO Camo, Infiltration, FO) 29|0
1 Seraph 85|2

Unfortunately the Seraph doesn't exist yet (as a model), but proxying with any PanO TAG should work. This one is based around another large link team to make it a bit more order efficient (the 5-man Magister Knight team). The Fusiliers are the only basic grunts in the list (one is the Lieutenant). It even comes with an infiltrator which helps by giving you a bit of a surprise unit. The Magister Knights can be a bit hard to use since a lot of them are armed with limited ammo weaponry that will be out after one or two shots (depending on if you use the bonus fire-rate from being in a link team). But the missile launcher and two guys with shotguns can at least keep firing. Though the latter two will be quite short ranged. The Seraph will provide a good, fast assault unit to handle most tasks with the Magisters being a good defensive/close support team for it.

PanOceania (299 points, 5.5SWC, 9 Orders)
2 Fusiliers 10|0 ea.
1 Fusilier Lt. 10|0
1 Fusilier (Forward Observer) 14|0
1 Swiss Guard w/ HMG 67|2
1 Cutter 117|2
1 Akal w/ Combi Rifle+E/Mitter 25|0
1 Akal w/ HMG 32|1.5
1 Auxilia 14|0

Now this one brings in two big guns of the PanO army. The Cutter TAG and the Swiss Guard. Both come with loads of armour, great offensive abilities and even have camouflage capabilities. But they are damn expensive. So this list is, all told, lighter (in terms of amount of heavy units) than the other two. It comes with four Fusiliers (one lieutenant and one forward observer who is mostly their to blind people with his laser pointer). The list also makes use of the handy Auxilia for CQB defense (technically a grunt, but a very good one). Beyond that it has some elite, mobile reserves in the form of air dropping Akali Commandos. It only manages 9 orders and doesn't have access to the Link Teams of the others (and between the two camo units in hidden deployment and the two air-dropping models it will only start with 5 orders on the field) but its two key units are all kinds of nasty when used well.

Yu Jing (298 points, 6SWC, 9 Orders + 1 Irregular)
2 Zhanshi 11|0 ea.
1 Shang Ji Lt. 42|0
1 Tiger Soldier w/ HMG 35|1.5
1 Daofei w/ HMG 61|2
1 Hsien w/ HMG 61|2
1 Guilang Minelayer 26|0.5
1 Domaru w/ EXP CCW 29|0
1 Zhanshi Yisheng (Doctor) 15|0
1 Shaolin w/ Chain Rifle 5|0
1 Yaozao 3|0

This one is more of a heavy infantry extravaganza in the basic list. It comes with two Zhanshi (grunts) as well as an attendant doctor (technically a specialized grunt) and a Shaolin (another specialized grunt). The unit is lead by a Shang Ji which is a nasty little piece of powered armour. Fast, well-armoured and fairly nicely armed. Beyond this the list contains two other "light" units. The infiltrating Guilang minelayer and the Tiger Soldier who is a drop trooper on steroids. The heavy elements include a Daofei (power armoured infiltrator), a Hsien (everyone's favourite assault heavy that is able to fire through the smoke the Shaolin creates) and the Domaru (CQB specialist with a chain rifle and nasty close combat skills). No TAG in this one, but it has a full 10 men in the unit (though the Shaolin is Irregular and keeps his order for himself alone) and 4 heavy infantry in it, making it quite well armoured (and it contains a lot of forward deployment stuff to keep order usage on the low side once it gets rolling).

So just a few ideas to show you what a 300 point list aimed at taking heavy assets might look like. It is certainly possible to take a lot of heavies but often you must supplement this by taking a few extra cheap grunts. Though in some cases these cheap grunts may still be specialists in their own right (such as the Shaolin in the above list, who is around to pop smoke to give the Hsien cover to fire through). When you go about making your first lists, I suggest starting at 150 points and avoiding TAGs until you move on to larger games (just not enough points at 150 to field a TAG well). At 150 points heavy infantry is about the heftiest thing you should generally field. Try to aim for 5-6 orders at that level and see how you do. You may not be able to take the fanciest heavies but a heavy infantry unit at 150 points can be nasty even without a lot of special rules. Your basic Invincible or ORC is still two wounds, good armour and usually a nasty gun attached.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Try not to dog pile the new guy everyone. You may note that he said he is cool with 10-models at 300 points.

...in a somewhat reluctant fashion after saying that ignoring people before worked fine, I would note.

In any case, I still think thinking through 300 point lists at this stage is rushing a bit, particularly with no idea of what models most appeal to him.

one forward observer who is mostly their to blind people with his laser pointer

I'd add that FOs are actually more useful than just that. They count as Specialist troops in a lot of scenarios.

Actually, with that said, I think all of these lists would have problems in just about any official scenario, due to lack of specialists. In fact, the only one of these lists that would stand any chance in a lot of the new games from the Paradiso book is the Imperial Service one, because it's the only one that includes the vital Engineer or Hacker. (The most important specialists by a VERY long shot).

I guess, actually, that this is going to be one of the newest exceptions to "It's not your list" - too few specialists. It's worth noting that a lot of the changes to the sectorials are making sure they're not shafted on Specialists.

(...oh gods. Did I really just say "shafted"? I'm starting to talk like my Inquisitor characters again.)

For that reason, I'd sooner replace the FO Fusiler with a Machinist. The ability to interact with objectives, clean off Adhesive ammunition and perhaps even fix up the TAG in a pinch is a lot useful than a laser pointer that hasn't got any Parabolic weapons to benefit from it.

Isn't is possible to make an Aleph list with 3-4 models? A couple of the nasty guys (Achilles, TAG etc.) then those little things that generate orders (Netrods is it? I forget the name). You would just need to buy a couple of minis, and then make your own small antenna things to function as the order generating constructs.

Not sure how effective that would be however

 Ronin_eX wrote:

PanOceania (299 points, 5.5SWC, 9 Orders)
2 Fusiliers 10|0 ea.
1 Fusilier Lt. 10|0
1 Fusilier (Forward Observer) 14|0
1 Swiss Guard w/ HMG 67|2
1 Cutter 117|2
1 Akal w/ Combi Rifle+E/Mitter 25|0
1 Akal w/ HMG 32|1.5
1 Auxilia 14|0

Now this one brings in two big guns of the PanO army. The Cutter TAG and the Swiss Guard. Both come with loads of armour, great offensive abilities and even have camouflage capabilities. But they are damn expensive. So this list is, all told, lighter (in terms of amount of heavy units) than the other two. It comes with four Fusiliers (one lieutenant and one forward observer who is mostly their to blind people with his laser pointer). The list also makes use of the handy Auxilia for CQB defense (technically a grunt, but a very good one). Beyond that it has some elite, mobile reserves in the form of air dropping Akali Commandos. It only manages 9 orders and doesn't have access to the Link Teams of the others (and between the two camo units in hidden deployment and the two air-dropping models it will only start with 5 orders on the field) but its two key units are all kinds of nasty when used well.

I like this list!

I might drop the Akals out though...

Heh, feel free to do whatever with it. I don't play PanO so I'm not 100% on any of those lists and how they would actually play on the table. I basically just composed lists that I knew I would hate fighting.