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Hello dakka !

I've been building up my brand new IG, chimera heavy. The meta in my local area IS necrons, and they love there damn flyers.
Every time i see people talking about flyer killing they automatically come up with vendettas and aegis guns. The 1st would be fine, but the aegis, in a fully mech army feels wrong.

For some reason, no one has ever answered me "why not take the hydra's in your codex, they are after all suppose to be mobile flakk batteries !"

I quite like Hydra's rule wise, I have some sexy ideas on how to build them thanks to maxmini.eu, but before i throw my hat and my wallet with them i wanted some Dakka reaction to this. Plus as I said, they are allegedly the ultimate flyer bane.
And even if they don't have flyers to shoot at, with the 2 twin linked autocannons and the heavy bolter, they still pack a punch against light vehicles and infintry.

Hydra's : Yes or no ? Are they worth it ?

They're ok. The only problem is a lack of duality, as although they're good for flyers that's all they're good for. Just take Vendettas.

Yeah, hydras are fine. Especially if you know that a lot of other people play skimmer armies.

The problem with hydras, though, is two-fold. The first is that hydras perform poorly outside of their role of anti-flier and anti-skimmer. Secondly, autocannons aren't very high-strength weapons, which means that they will struggle against a lot of skimmers (tau and eldar ones come to mind), and, more importantly, they will also struggle against an increasing number of fliers (drakes, 'dettes, 'ravens), and that's the one thing that they're supposed to be good against.

There are other cheap things you can use (like lightning arc primaris psykers), and not-so-cheap things (like ogryn), but if you're not going to take vendettas to handle fliers, you might as well just focus on dominating the ground game. If you can take all of the ground objectives before your opponent pops their first scoring unit out of a flier, your opponent is going to have a very hard time of it.

Also, if your opponent is doing a necron flying circus, then perhaps what you really need is some guard artillery or something to blow up the likely very small pocket of stuff he has on the board while he waits for his fliers to arrive. I saw a guard player accomplish this feat two weeks ago. With the exception of an ark full of warriors and a lord on a chariot, everything else was in a flier. Guard player goes first. Top of turn 1, lascannons blow up the ark. Top of turn 2, stormies drop in and kill the chariot. A lascannon kills the lord, and a hellhound blows the warriors off the table. Nothing else that the necron player brought even got to hit the table.

You could run an allied squadron of Hydras from the Armored Battlegroup list and take Ace Gunners to make them Str. 8.

EDIT:

Or Hydra Platforms

Hmm I see. It's a shame, i quite like the look of the models.
But 2 TL auto cannons and a heavy bolter for 75 on a chimera chassis isn't to shabby is it ?

This reminds me of the IG heavy weapon thread

I'll try them out on Vassal and see what feel I get.... But I have to admit i'm more then a bit dissapointed with what I hear. They are suppose to be the ultimate AA choice fluff wise.

And to answer Rampage, what if I don't want to take a Vendetta ? I hate those kind of answers mate :(
And I disagree, they can also take on light armor, MC and infintry. They don't seem to lack duality in my eyes.

Hydras are pretty poor thanks to getting stuck with just Skyfire. This allows your opponent to hit them first and makes them an obvious target.

If Vendettas aren't your bag, then you're missing out on your best anti-flyer solution. Beyond that, you just have the usual mass/TL high rate of fire weaponry and lots of hull/bodies to clog up the middle of the board.

mayfist wrote:But 2 TL auto cannons and a heavy bolter for 75 on a chimera chassis isn't to shabby is it ?

It might not be were it not for the fact that they have skyfire without interceptor. Snap firing against ground targets stinks. Indeed, you're talking about spending 75 points for the amount of hits that a single autocannon in the infantry does.

Of course, if you're playing against a lot of DE skimmer spam, they can still be worth it, as things that are AV10 and also skimmers is practically what hydras are designed to handle. For everything else? Not so much.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Hydras are pretty poor thanks to getting stuck with just Skyfire. This allows your opponent to hit them first and makes them an obvious target.

If Vendettas aren't your bag, then you're missing out on your best anti-flyer solution. Beyond that, you just have the usual mass/TL high rate of fire weaponry and lots of hull/bodies to clog up the middle of the board.

Hydra are not poor. At their price tag, having Interceptor would be criminal.

Also, remember that having Skyfire lets you shoot Skimmers at full BS too. Plus the Hydra is twin-linked. Meaning it is effectivly BS2 against stuff it only snap shots against.


Giving it Interceptor would make it even more undercosted then Vendettas.

Hydras are definitely useful; there's also the option to get Saber platforms from Aeronautica, which do have Interceptor, but you have to deal with the fact that they're stationary.

...I actually never noticed that twin-linked is almost precisely +1 BS before...This is an interesting development. I should keep that in mind.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Hydras are definitely useful; there's also the option to get Saber platforms from Aeronautica, which do have Interceptor, but you have to deal with the fact that they're stationary.

...I actually never noticed that twin-linked is almost precisely +1 BS before...This is an interesting development. I should keep that in mind.

Just as a note, this is only true for ballistics skills less than 3, and for BS 9. At ballistics skills between 3 and 8, twin-linking is significantly more valuable than an additional point of BS.

 mayfist wrote:
And to answer Rampage, what if I don't want to take a Vendetta ? I hate those kind of answers mate :(
And I disagree, they can also take on light armor, MC and infintry. They don't seem to lack duality in my eyes.

Fair enough, but here's my reasoning. I would say that Hydras can't deal with infantry, light armour (apart from skimmers), non-flying monstrous creatures, etc. IIRC units with Skyfire may well be able to shoot at flying units with normal BS, but unless they have the interceptor rule then they shoot at ground targets at BS1 instead. As a flyer, Vendettas do not suffer from this problem, and so can deal with flyers more ffectively as well as the vast majority of ground targets.

If you don't want to take a Vendetta, then don't take a Vendetta, you posted a thread about IG flyer killing, so I responded with what I believe is the best option in the Guard Codex. I'll just bomb through the rest of my reasoning.

Weaponary: A Hydra has 4 S7 AP4 Twin-Linked shots, a Vendetta has 3 S9 AP2 Twin-Linked shots. Going through the armour values, assuming 3 Hull Points on all enemy targets.

-AV10 - Hydra, 3 hits, 1.5 penetrating hits, 0.5 glancing hits. - Vendetta, 2.5 hits, 2.09 penetrating hits, 0.41 glancing hits. And +1 on vehicle damage table. Vendetta wins.

-AV11 - Hydra, 3 hits, 1 penetrating hit, 0.5 glancing hits. - Vendetta, 2.5 hits, 1.68 penetrating hits, 0.41 glancing hits. And +1 on vehicle damage table. Vendetta wins.

-AV12 - Hydra, 3 hits, 0.5 penetrating hits, 0.5 glancing hits. - Vendetta, 2.5 hits, 1.27 penetrating hits, 0.41 glancing hits. And +1 on vehicle damage table. Vendetta wins.

There we go, plus the Vendetta can fire at ground targets at full BS. Yes the Vendetta is more expensive, but you get a load more as well.

The Vendetta is also a load more durable than the Hydra, mainly because most units are going to need 6s to hit at it and even after that most of the units that shoot at it at normal BS are only S7 against AV12.

Plus, you're not taking heavy support slots out of your army. If you take a Hydra, that is one less slot that you can use to fill with Manticores and Leman Russ Battle Tanks. If I take a Vendetta, then that is one less slot that I can fill up with Rough Riders.

That's my take on it. If you don't want to take Vendettas, fine, no-one is going to force you, take whatever you want.

Would like to point out Ailaros hat your example of knocking out the Necron opponent at the top of turn 2 is off. It would have had to have been all gone turn 1 or his units have a chance to come in. Otherwise Daemons and full drop pod armies auto lose every time they don't get first turn. Game turn, not player turn.

That said killing off the few units hat deploy can be a viable option if you pack enough of the right kind of firepower. IG would also definitely be the army to do it with too.

Yeah, I forgot to mention, he rolled poorly on reserves as well.

Still, investing a lot of points in fliers comes with this risk.

Vendetta's are the most viable and if your gaming club sports many flyers are crucial.

This pains me... Deep down I knew what to expect.
I really don't want to add any flyers in my list, for personal and fluff reasons.
But heck, i suppose after a couple of weeks of the flying circus i'll break and field the fething thing.

And to answer Ailaros, I've had a similar games, but never managed to table any of them completely.

PS : I'Ve read a lot of your posts and reports on dakka and your blog, and I find them truly inspiring. I shed a tear of joy every time I see you field stormies. I love storm troopers, always have !

If you don't want to add Flyers, don't add flyers. Vendettas are an excellent unit but are not mandatory. Vendettas are the best choice but if you don't want to field them then take Hydras, they aren't bad by any means.

Hydras absolutely murder av10/av11 flyers. 3 hydras, 3 vendettas, and an aegis will absolutely wreck cron air.

The problem with hydras is they don't do well against av12 flyers, or ground targets which is most of the game now.

Hydra are ok as they can destroy light flyers but have trouble with stormravens and equal av flyers. and they suck when the enemy deep strikes terminators or vanguard vets or equals with tank busting power

I'd really like to see a minor price increase and give them interceptor. I'd consider them an auto-take then. It'd let me run the list I want and use them as anti-transport/flier. I guess we can only hope for that when a new guard 'dex comes out.

Or we pester GW enough to include it in the errata.

 Blaggard wrote:
Or we pester GW enough to include it in the errata.

Sure, why not make another unit in the IG Codex bent again? Hydras were fantastic in 5th, but now with the prevelance of flyers they would be even better if they could shoot at both flying and ground targets at full BS, as well as firing at all reserve units coming on within range and LOS. If this was going to happen, they'd NEED a price increase.

How much would you think would be adequate?

Probably about 105. Considering that they are a less durable rifleman dread with Skyfire and Interceptor.

Around 100 sounds about right. I'd pick up a couple and ditch the quad-cannon.

schadenfreude wrote:The problem with hydras is they don't do well against av12 flyers, or ground targets which is most of the game now.

And that's it, really.

My nerd raged just a little bit when I saw that CSM got an AV12 flier. I mean, come on, it's only a matter of time now until we get an AV13 flier...

 Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The problem with hydras is they don't do well against av12 flyers, or ground targets which is most of the game now.

And that's it, really.

My nerd raged just a little bit when I saw that CSM got an AV12 flier. I mean, come on, it's only a matter of time now until we get an AV13 flier...

I'm still waiting for the AV14 flyer. The end all be all of flyerdom.

I still think people are missing out that you can ally an Armored Company and get 3x independent LRBTs (one at BS4) and 3x Hydras with Str 8 autocannons.

 Ailaros wrote:
My nerd raged just a little bit when I saw that CSM got an AV12 flier. I mean, come on, it's only a matter of time now until we get an AV13 flier...

Too late: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/CAESTUS-ASSAULT-RAM.html

The analysis below compares two hydras (150 points) to a single vendetta (130 points). Its a much fairer comparison than 75 vs 130. It also ignores the fact that the hydra will ignore the jink/evade save, whereas the vendetta will not. Finally, most people ask how many penetrating or glancing hits you are expected to get in a single round of shooting? Thing is, it is not really all that helpful.

What you should ask is what is the probability that a vendetta / 2 hydras will destroy a 3HP flier, in one round of shooting?

vendetta...... 3HP stripped.....................explodes!...........................total
AV10.............0.158926505.................... 0.503833912.................... 0.582687854
AV11.............0.096281829.................... 0.421296296.................... 0.477014947
AV12.............0.052734375.................... 0.330078125.................... 0.365406036
AV13.............0.024811921.................... 0.22974537 0....................0.248856868
AV14.............0.009042245.................... 0.119864005.................... 0.12782241

2hydras........3HP stripped.....................explodes!...........................total
AV10.............0.591450155.................... 0.403280526.................... 0.756210352
AV11.............0.331369749.................... 0.28856905 0....................0.524315746
AV12.............0.104880241.................... 0.155007286.................... 0.243630325
AV13.............0.004475313.................... 0..........................................0.004475313
AV14.............0..........................................0.......................................... 0

 Barksdale wrote:
The analysis below compares two hydras (150 points) to a single vendetta (130 points). Its a much fairer comparison than 75 vs 130. It also ignores the fact that the hydra will ignore the jink/evade save, whereas the vendetta will not. Finally, most people ask how many penetrating or glancing hits you are expected to get in a single round of shooting? Thing is, it is not really all that helpful.

What you should ask is what is the probability that a vendetta / 2 hydras will destroy a 3HP flier, in one round of shooting?

vendetta...... 3HP stripped.....................explodes!...........................total
AV10.............0.158926505.................... 0.503833912.................... 0.582687854
AV11.............0.096281829.................... 0.421296296.................... 0.477014947
AV12.............0.052734375.................... 0.330078125.................... 0.365406036
AV13.............0.024811921.................... 0.22974537 0....................0.248856868
AV14.............0.009042245.................... 0.119864005.................... 0.12782241

2hydras........3HP stripped.....................explodes!...........................total
AV10.............0.591450155.................... 0.403280526.................... 0.756210352
AV11.............0.331369749.................... 0.28856905 0....................0.524315746
AV12.............0.104880241.................... 0.155007286.................... 0.243630325
AV13.............0.004475313.................... 0..........................................0.004475313
AV14.............0..........................................0.......................................... 0

Thats nice, and shines a good mathhammer light on my internal debate.

I am going to pick up 3 hydra's to deal with cron air, and cause i really want to model a hydra And if they do get faq, then i'll just put on my hipster glasses and annoy the hell out of people.

Interceptor would make sense.... it is a god damn mobile flakk battery. It would make IG dominate the skies Who would have the power to stand against the combined power of vendettas and skyfire/interceptor hydras ?