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A ways back i seem to remember an interview with the game designers where they discussed rules being either supportive to the feel of the fluff or counter to that. Like it wouldnt make sense for a poisoned weapon to remove armor saves, but a 4+ to wound would, as the poison is lethal if it gets through....

If that is the way things work now, then why the hell can Thousand sons champions and Tzeentch sorcerers turn into chaos spawn if they roll badly on the chaos boon table?!
Why?! You do all the work of telling us about how the thousand sons are literally immune to the mutating powers of the warp because of the Rubic of Ahriman, and then you backhand it to an army wide special rule you fell so much in love with, that every single army out there had to endure it....

Lazyness or game "balance"?

My guess is as good as yours...

Not all Tz sorcerors are Rubric marines. Remember that in the fluff ahriman isnt exactly favoured. So no, not all full fledged sorcs are immune.

Additionally - they champs are only immune to the geneseed mutation that Magnus initially tried to bargain away, and failed. Not necessarily other mutations.

only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

nickick wrote:
only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

They were effected, they had their powers enhanced by the rubric. And as per Ahriman's entry in the codex "The physical corruption of the Thousand Sons had been halted at a terrible cost; the survivors were now free of debilitating mutation, but many had paid the ultimate price."

Are the Aspiring Sorcerers survivors of the Rubric? If so they are now free of mutation, their physical corruption halted. No mutations for any survivors of the Rubric.

Chrysis wrote:

nickick wrote:
only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

They were effected, they had their powers enhanced by the rubric. And as per Ahriman's entry in the codex "The physical corruption of the Thousand Sons had been halted at a terrible cost; the survivors were now free of debilitating mutation, but many had paid the ultimate price."

Are the Aspiring Sorcerers survivors of the Rubric? If so they are now free of mutation, their physical corruption halted. No mutations for any survivors of the Rubric.

Splitting hairs, but as someone posted, it could be that the geneseed flaw was finally fixed, but they are still vulnerable to the mutating effects of new chaos boons.

Chrysis wrote:

nickick wrote:
only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

They were effected, they had their powers enhanced by the rubric. And as per Ahriman's entry in the codex "The physical corruption of the Thousand Sons had been halted at a terrible cost; the survivors were now free of debilitating mutation, but many had paid the ultimate price."

Are the Aspiring Sorcerers survivors of the Rubric? If so they are now free of mutation, their physical corruption halted. No mutations for any survivors of the Rubric.

Considering they aren't exactly powered up it seems (Mastery 1) nor anyone with MoT, it can be said they aren't the original sorcerers anymore.

I agree its rather silly, especially since if a Thousand Son Sorcerer rolls on the chart, and all he gets is Boon of Mutation, he will likely kill himself by casting it on himself (cause thats all he can do).

Why is there always a downside to it ? Get a boon, but you might die, finally got that boon? well you still might turn into a spawn, or 1/6 of the time it does nothing. The only good power is Doombolt in that list and you gotta get a range squad thats bad at melee within melee range.

That and TS are basically the same as last codex, they gained Hatred for free, but you pay for the crappy icon that lights people on fire.. which has never done much of anything.

The thing behind that...is that the TS have this genetic flaw from their primarch, that makes it so.

Phil Kelly is just a lazy/bad writer.

Kevlar wrote:
Phil Kelly is just a lazy/bad writer.

Lazy answer. If you find a seeming plot hole, saying 'the writers were lazy' before looking for a way to fix it is even lazier (Matt Ward remains exempt from any rule giving the writers the benefit of the doubt).

If I recall correctly, the Rubric didn't stop existing mutations by saying "Hey, guys, we're immune to Chaos mutation now!", it stopped the mutations by turning most of the Thousand Sons into spirits trapped in suits of empty armor, leaving nothing left to mutate (a case of the spell giving you exactly what you asked for but what you didn't want). There's no reason to expect that the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons are in any way resistant or immune to further mutations going forward, especially since they're presumably out for the ultimate reward (Daemonhood) just like every other Chaos Champion.

So the armour mutates then?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Phil Kelly is just a lazy/bad writer.

Lazy answer. If you find a seeming plot hole, saying 'the writers were lazy' before looking for a way to fix it is even lazier (Matt Ward remains exempt from any rule giving the writers the benefit of the doubt).

If I recall correctly, the Rubric didn't stop existing mutations by saying "Hey, guys, we're immune to Chaos mutation now!", it stopped the mutations by turning most of the Thousand Sons into spirits trapped in suits of empty armor, leaving nothing left to mutate (a case of the spell giving you exactly what you asked for but what you didn't want). There's no reason to expect that the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons are in any way resistant or immune to further mutations going forward, especially since they're presumably out for the ultimate reward (Daemonhood) just like every other Chaos Champion.

Not a lazy answer, it's Occam's Razor after all.

Chrysis wrote:

nickick wrote:
only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

They were effected, they had their powers enhanced by the rubric. And as per Ahriman's entry in the codex "The physical corruption of the Thousand Sons had been halted at a terrible cost; the survivors were now free of debilitating mutation, but many had paid the ultimate price."

Are the Aspiring Sorcerers survivors of the Rubric? If so they are now free of mutation, their physical corruption halted. No mutations for any survivors of the Rubric.

Context.

The physical corruption from their geneseed had been halted. ....free of debilitating mutation caused by their geneseed

Youre ignoring context. Dont

Its for game balance.

Plus it would be kinda silly for Thousand Sons to not benifit from one of their own psychic powers.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Lazy answer. If you find a seeming plot hole, saying 'the writers were lazy' before looking for a way to fix it is even lazier (Matt Ward remains exempt from any rule giving the writers the benefit of the doubt).

Not really. Phil Kelly after all is the guy who decided to up-end and break down 40K's entire cosmology with his Decapitator-wielding, decapitating Decapitator brilliance of a SC, not to mention that he Space Wolves are still out their Grand-Theft-Thunderhawking to go a-sexing in the next town, despite general Space Marines lore being rather explicit on the lack of virility of the Emperor's finest.

Phil Kelly breaks more 40K lore in an average paragraph than Mat Ward did in it's entire Games Workshop writing career. The simple fact that Phil Kelly Codexes need - on average - at list twice as many Errata and FAQ than either Cruddace's or Ward's books, and his Space Wolves masterpiece has a FAQ that rivals the Errata of the entire 5th Edition 40K rulebook, should tell you that Kelly just isn't a guy for "details".

Something of note, I feel, is that in one or several of William Kings Space Wolf book the TSons there have mutated or received gifts of somekind. I recall molten blood off the top of my head, and one really large Sorcerer. Then again he depicts them as every bit as good in CQC, the Sorcerers at least, as Wolf Lords so maybe he just has odd bits in there.

If Thousand Sons sorcerers can't be mutated then how would they have daemon princes? I have always seen it as the only reason they couldn't be mutated was because they had no physical body left to mutate. If they still do (the sorcerers) then they can mutate.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Lazy answer. If you find a seeming plot hole, saying 'the writers were lazy' before looking for a way to fix it is even lazier (Matt Ward remains exempt from any rule giving the writers the benefit of the doubt).

Not really. Phil Kelly after all is the guy who decided to up-end and break down 40K's entire cosmology with his Decapitator-wielding, decapitating Decapitator brilliance of a SC, not to mention that he Space Wolves are still out their Grand-Theft-Thunderhawking to go a-sexing in the next town, despite general Space Marines lore being rather explicit on the lack of virility of the Emperor's finest.

Phil Kelly breaks more 40K lore in an average paragraph than Mat Ward did in it's entire Games Workshop writing career. The simple fact that Phil Kelly Codexes need - on average - at list twice as many Errata and FAQ than either Cruddace's or Ward's books, and his Space Wolves masterpiece has a FAQ that rivals the Errata of the entire 5th Edition 40K rulebook, should tell you that Kelly just isn't a guy for "details".

Ah yes, Zweischneid with his eternal hardon for hating Phil Kelly comes in and uses hyperbolic, flowery prose to praise his spiritual liege while condemning Phil Kelly.

Show me the figures that Phil Kelly's codices need twice as many Errata or FAQ, the new CSM FAQ is barely even a page.

I think ill cap this off before it turns into a Wierd flamewar...

I had no idea that the Rubic was simply meant to fix their geneseed, and it seems like a lot of work for that specific purpose, and the price is way too high.. but that´s the way chaos works i guess. When thinking about it im surprised the changer of ways didnt boot their asses out of the warp right then and there. He is the CHANGER afterall, and having dusty armors that are unchanging doing his bidding seems wierd.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its for game balance.

Plus it would be kinda silly for Thousand Sons to not benifit from one of their own psychic powers.

Then why did they put Boon of Mutation on the Tzeentch power table?

See what I did there?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

nickick wrote:
only the bog standard thousand suns are rubric marines all of the people with psychic power were not affected by the rubric of Ahriman (well... some of them were killed, but anyways...) so it does make sense... the only people who could get the boon rolls are the non-rubric marines

They were effected, they had their powers enhanced by the rubric. And as per Ahriman's entry in the codex "The physical corruption of the Thousand Sons had been halted at a terrible cost; the survivors were now free of debilitating mutation, but many had paid the ultimate price."

Are the Aspiring Sorcerers survivors of the Rubric? If so they are now free of mutation, their physical corruption halted. No mutations for any survivors of the Rubric.

Context.

The physical corruption from their geneseed had been halted. ....free of debilitating mutation caused by their geneseed

Youre ignoring context. Dont

This. The Rubric halted the fleshchange. Which was a flaw in their geneseed. They're still dabbling with powers of Tzeentch, so it's possible for them to be mutated still. The cause is simply Tzeentch though, not the fleshchange.

He has a point on some though. Arhiman would probably avoid boons and the like, and only those who have truly taken to their new god probably get those.

Plus imagine how hard it is to win combat as sorcerers. It goes against what they stand for, in my mind, to be in the thick of combat.

Not chaos sorcerors, at all.