Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At around 1000-1500pt range.

I'm thinking 3 Russes, since I have the models (2 vanilla with lascannons and Heavy Bolters, 1 Executioner without sponsons. I think I still have the parts somewhere so will try to stick sponsons on it). I have about 40 infantry too with a fair few plasma guns, and a couple of chimeras. I could buy maybe a couple of things but I want to build my core around that.

So am I best off taking MSU platoons to screen the Russes and throw plasma fire at the enemy? Or should I go for full mech vet guard?

Could possibly go hybrid - 3 Russes, CCS with plasmas in chimera, plasma vets in chimera, and a blob with plasmas. What do the vets say?

Well, mech guard isn't substantially different than it was before. The biggest difference is that vendettas are fliers now, but that's about it. Vehicles took a balance between getting a bit more fragile, and being able to put out a big more killing power, and anything with a large blast got to damage vehicles more easily.

The only real difference is now the guys have to get out at the end of the game, but if your opponent isn't already so crushed that they can't kill your 30 or 40 guardsmen at the end of the game, then either you were unlucky, or played your leafblower wrong.

Foot guard is obviously a lot different, what with the death of power blobs. I tried a few things, including MSU infantry platoons and mass grenadiers vets, but in the end, the foot army is just too fragile. My answer to this has been infinitely respawning send in the next wave conscripts, which have been doing pretty well for me.

And storm troopers. Lots of them. Between being able to take opponent's objectives on the far side of the board with special mobility units, and holding objectives on my side of the board with permanent conscripts, things have been going pretty well. I've recently started spamming lascannons in my PISs to add in some killing power, and I'm finally starting to get a real bead on what my foot guard will likely look like until we get our next codex.

1) Hull guns and sponsons on ordnance LRs is pointless since they can only snap fire. Never buy these upgrades.

2) Hybrid is bad, especially at low point levels (where "hybrid" means your army is balanced between the two, not a token objective holder infantry unit in mech IG, for example). Trying to take both foot and mech in the same list just makes you mediocre at both with none of the target saturation that you depend on for survival. Decide which you want to do and then focus on it.

3) IG flyers are awesome, and you need AA in 6th. Add Vendettas and/or punisher cannon Vultures.

4) your infantry dies when it gets breathed on; you just can't get that universal 4+ cover like in 5th, so I've switched to mech guard with a platoon to provide fire support. So far it's worked quite well, with vanilla russes for heavies.

As of now, I'm running hybrid, but I'm finding that I have to go big with armor or go home.

The most success I find is when I saturate the board with AV-14. I'm not talking 3 russes, I'm talking five (well, four and a demolisher) at the 1750 point range.

I usually use the russes to block LoS and stick vetrans with carapace armor (or in chimeras, if you have the models) behind them, and I run lots of suicide stormtroopers with meltas to deepstrike in and pop what really needs popping. An outflanking harker squad can come in from the flank to challenge an enemy's backfield objective, and they may stick around with a decent cover save, and people seem to prioritize a lone outflanking sentinel with an autocannon for some reason. Basically, I run as many distractions as I possibly can, distractions that hopefully destroy the enemies range AT capabilities, and try to keep them tied up in their deployment as LRBTs hammer away, dealing steady damage over time. I find that veteran squads work better at the role of sitting behind the russes, as they bring more concentrated firepower to anything which gets in range.

Yes. I do take losses. My stormtroopers die, my tanks die, my sentinel dies but my troops manage to survive by hiding behind tanks and in cover until the end when the rest of the army has done its job--removed the enemy's scoring units.

While it works for me (so far), I'd recommend you go full mech guard, it's been very hard for me to work out the right balance of a hyrbid list, and even then It's still a work in progress, and I'm sure a pure mech IG list would destroyit. it relies very heavily on the durability of the leman russ and careful placement of troops to deny the enemy's anti infantry firepower, whereas, in a pure mech list, you don't have to worry about the plentiful anti-infantry firepower your opponent has at all, you've got wonderful AV 12 all over the place.

So...I'm still going to have to stick all my men in metal boxes? Ah well.

Thanks for the advice guys, especially kestril. I do have some stormtrooper models so will have to put them to use, may get a couple of scout sentinals.

I'm finding that allies work pretty well, and it seems like every game I play my opponent is using them. In a recent local RTT 9 of the 12 armies used allies. I've been running IG with SW allies, or vice versa.

For pure guard, though...

I agree with Kestrel that Mech Guard with distractions is pretty effective. I put my vets in a chimera, with 3 special weapons and an autocannon. I'm also switching my ML/HF chimeras to ML/HB. Even when it's snap fire, I want shots, lots of shots. I'm also still putting HB sponsons on my LRBT's. I usually get to fire them 3 turns at least. For example, if your opponent deep strikes or gets in assault range, that 6" move isn't going to help much. And if the unit can hit AV10 with a lot of attacks, as many can, moving to get the higher WS isn't going to make much of a difference either. So, instead, I turn and unleash 9 HB shots. Pretty effective for 20 points.

For distractions, nothing is better than Marbo. Not only does he represent a threat that must be dealt with, he also can hide in cover with stealth and deny objectives. He attracts more attention than anything else you can get for 65 points.

I've been having a lot of luck with a hybrid list. Its usually 3 veteran squads and a CCS in chimeras, an executioner and an exterminator, and a full platoon of melta/autocannon infantry with another CCS with a regimental standard.

I find it to be pretty flexible. I can spread the infantry out in my DZ, to deny DS units. BID on their autocannons help with flyers, and i have enough chimeras so that at least one will survive at the end of the game to capture objectives.

The two russes almost always survive, either because of placement in cover/behind men, or because the enemy is shooting at the advancing chimeras.

I've also started including 2 hellhounds in my 1500-1850 lists. They can be pretty hilarious/devastating if your opponent doesnt take care of them quickly.

I also second including marbo. I think hes almost an auto take. The ability to instant kill a squad of T4 units, wreck vehicles, and make a mess of wherever he pops up on the board is awesome for only 65 pts.

Sponsoons on lr work fine, just avoid ordinance main guns.

Vendettas are ridiculous now.

SW allies can cover gaps in your list.

Griffins are mean in 6th

I have had a lot of fun running lots of leman russes/ carapace vets. It has worked in my local meta so far. A naked russ works wounders at long range and I do love the executioner for 5 blast goodness.

Also, I swear by the PBS/ Telepathy Primaris combo, but I am in the minority on that.

Honestly, I love using the LRBT as a bolter boat, hull plus sponsons. Yes, they can only snap fire when you fire the main gun, but they also add A LOT of survivability to your main gun on a weapon destroyed result.

Also, against spread out, light infatnry, such as boys, the 9 heavy bolter shots can net you more kills than the big gun. Against MEQs, the snap firing bolters netting an extra wound or two have often been the difference of forcing a morale check, or not; or even finfishish off a squad or not, thus saving me haveing to use another unit to do the job. This allows me to use my other forces more effectively, rather thas being forced to finish off the LRBT's target.

The loss of Lumbering hurt the hull lascannon LRBT, but bolter boats LRBTs I have found to be well worht the extra 20 points.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Also, I swear by the PBS/ Telepathy Primaris combo, but I am in the minority on that.

For good reason. The combo is absolute garbage, it has a pathetic chance of working, and is far worse than just spending those points on more guns and shooting the enemy to death.

 Alerian wrote:
Honestly, I love using the LRBT as a bolter boat, hull plus sponsons. Yes, they can only snap fire when you fire the main gun, but they also add A LOT of survivability to your main gun on a weapon destroyed result.

Which is only a 1/12 chance on a penetrating hit as it is (1/6 to get weapon destroyed, 1/2 to get the main gun), so making it even more unlikely is kind of pointless. Losing the main gun went from being a very common event to something that only rarely happens before your tank explodes or runs out of hull points, and those 20 points could be much better spent elsewhere.

Against MEQs, the snap firing bolters netting an extra wound or two have often been the difference of forcing a morale check, or not; or even finfishish off a squad or not, thus saving me haveing to use another unit to do the job. This allows me to use my other forces more effectively, rather thas being forced to finish off the LRBT's target.

Except you don't get an extra wound or two. You average 1.5 hits, 1 wound, and 0.333 unsaved wounds. You'd have to shoot at those MEQs for three full turns to average a single extra casualty.

@Peregrine..
This is a game of dice and chance (one I have been playing for nearly 2 decades, mind you, allowing me to see many times how cruel/exciting a mistress "chance" can be). There will be many times that those 20 points do absolutely nothing, very true; however, there are often those times where the dice fall in your favor, and those sponsons truely do make a difference in allowing the LRBT to finish off a squad by itself, rather than needeing to waste other resources on it. At 1850 , 20 points for such flexibility and added threat are well worth it, especially if your meta has a fair mumber of Orks, Eldar, DE, other IG, etc.

IG have many, many specialist troops and vehicles, all of which do their specific job better than the LRBT, which is best used as a generalist tank. By kitting out the LRBT as a bolter boat, you get the ultimate Swiss Army Knife tank.

Maybe, GW will see ther error of their ways and give some form of lumbering back to it, so that the iconic hull-lascannon, HB sponson LRBT will be useful again, but until then, I firmly believe that if you are going to spend the points on a generalist tanks such as the LRBT, it is best to make it even more effective in that role. If you prefer specialist HS option, then choose one of the many in the codex, and skip the LRBT altogether.

As for the survivability, your math does not take into account units that can put multiple high STR shots on the LRBT, such as Melta Vets or Broadsides, nor are you taking into acount bad dice rolls. For 20 points, you can decrease the chance of losing your Battle Cannon on a wepon destroyed from 50% to 25%, all while adding more firepower to the tank. Plus, for those 20 points, if you do still get unlucky and lose the main gun first, you now have three HBs on your tank, firing at full BS while moving, rather than just one, making those 20 points even more valuable of an upgrade, since your tank continues to be a threat to infantry.

The 20 points for sponsons are a steal when you look at the combined survivablity, firepower, and tactical flexibility they provide to an already well built generalist battle tank. Don't look at them as 20 points for more firepower, OR more survivablility, OR more flexibility,; rather, look at them as 20 points that give you 3 advantages - that is less that 7 points per advantage it gives your tank: surivivalbity of the Battle Cannon, added Firepower, and added Flexibility in targeting.

 Alerian wrote:
@Peregrine..
This is a game of dice and chance (one I have been playing for nearly 2 decades, mind you, allowing me to see many times how cruel/exciting a mistress "chance" can be). There will be many times that those 20 points do absolutely nothing, very true; however, there are often those times where the dice fall in your favor, and those sponsons truely do make a difference in allowing the LRBT to finish off a squad by itself, rather than needeing to waste other resources on it. At 1850 , 20 points for such flexibility and added threat are well worth it, especially if your meta has a fair mumber of Orks, Eldar, DE, other IG, etc.

Except here's the tiny little problem: those 20 points spent elsewhere in your army will consistently do much more than adding some worthless snapfire guns and hoping to get lucky.

As for the survivability, your math does not take into account units that can put multiple high STR shots on the LRBT, such as Melta Vets or Broadsides, nor are you taking into acount bad dice rolls.

Of course I'm talking about multiple high-strength shots. "Weapon destroyed" is only one result on the table, so it's impossible for it to be anything other than a 1/6 chance of getting it with a penetrating hit. High-quality shooting just makes it even less likely that you'll ever see it, since instead of rolling three times on the table you're more likely to just have the tank explode from the first shot.

And no, I'm not taking bad rolls into account, just like I'm not taking good rolls into account. You don't throw away points because your dice might be worse than average, just like you don't make other decisions based on an optimistic idea that your dice will do better than average.

The 20 points for sponsons are a steal when you look at the combined survivablity, firepower, and tactical flexibility they provide to an already well built generalist battle tank. Don't look at them as 20 points for more firepower, OR more survivablility, OR more flexibility,; rather, look at them as 20 points that give you 3 advantages - that is less that 7 points per advantage it gives your tank: surivivalbity of the Battle Cannon, added Firepower, and added Flexibility in targeting.

Or I can look at it as two melta guns I don't have in my list. You can have your insurance policy against unlikely situations, I'll take the extra firepower.

Wow...
That's all I can say to your argumentative attitude. If you are maximizing a list and cannot afford 20 points to maximize your valuable HS slot tank into being better at doing what it is meant to do, then just skip the LRBT like I already said. IG units must be maximized for ultimate effectiveness, this includes the venerable LRBT. There are many cheaper options in the codex for comperable or greater firepower to that of the LRBT. The only reason to take a LRBT is the tactical flexibility it provides. You keep seeing the 20 points as simnply being for 6 snap shots, even though I have pointed out several times that the sponsons give you far more advantages than that.

The LRBT is too expensive of an investment, not to get the most out of it. Those 20 points are not wasted...not by a long shot. Really, if you can't afford the 20 points to give your already expensive LRBT 3 distinct advantages (survivability of the Battle Cannon, added firepower, and more flexible firepower), then the LRBT isn't the best choice of tank for you anyway, since you are not getting the most out of it...it is kinda like saying you are taking melta vets, but really can't afford the 20 points to max them out, so you are only giving them one. Additionally, as I said before, there will be times that 9 HB shots are better than one large blast, ie: very spread out light infantry targets, single model multi-wound monsterous creatures. etc., and it such cases, it is better not to fire the Cannon at all. Those 20 points are invaulable for the flexibilty they provide your tank in such instances.

As for me, I have no problem fitting in my 3 Vends, 4 Melta Vet squads, and several other specialist units into my 1850 tourney list, while still haveing the extra 20 points to make my LRBTs more effective at what they were designed to do.

On a side note, you SHOULD be taking both good and bad rolls into account, and building your list with safeguards, accordingly. That is the diffence between a good player and a great player. A good player plays the odds, and build his list accordingly. A great player plays the odds, but also builds safeguards into his list and tactics, for when the dice don't follow the odds, and everything goes sideways.

 Alerian wrote:
If you are maximizing a list and cannot afford 20 points to maximize your valuable HS slot tank into being better at doing what it is meant to do, then just skip the LRBT like I already said.

Or you accept that the standard Leman Russ is good enough without adding a 20-point insurance policy against a very rare situation.

And no, adding snapfire guns doesn't make the tank better at what it's meant to do. It adds nothing against vehicles, nothing against MEQs, and very little against lighter infantry (which aren't a LRBT's main target), and it adds very little durability. That's not even close to enough benefit to justify a 13% increase in the price.

You keep seeing the 20 points as simnply being for 6 snap shots, even though I have pointed out several times that the sponsons give you far more advantages than that.

All you've pointed out is unlikely scenarios where it's possible that your sponsons will do something other than eat up 20 points. The fact that it's possible to come up with a scenario, no matter how unlikely, where any upgrade does something useful doesn't make those upgrades good.

it is kinda like saying you are taking melta vets, but really can't afford the 20 points to max them out, so you are only giving them one.

Except it's not like that at all. Adding the second and third melta gun to a veteran squad triples the firepower. Adding worthless snapfire guns to a tank adds a tiny increase in effectiveness. It should be obvious why one of these is a mandatory "upgrade", and the other is a waste of points.

On a side note, you SHOULD be taking both good and bad rolls into account, and building your list with safeguards, accordingly. That is the diffence between a good player and a great player. A good player plays the odds, and build his list accordingly. A great player plays the odds, but also builds safeguards into his list and tactics, for when the dice don't follow the odds, and everything goes sideways.

There's a difference between "taking bad rolls into account" and "ignoring how unlikely a particular bad roll is and spending too many points protecting against it".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Alerian wrote:
If you are maximizing a list and cannot afford 20 points to maximize your valuable HS slot tank into being better at doing what it is meant to do, then just skip the LRBT like I already said.

Or you accept that the standard Leman Russ is good enough without adding a 20-point insurance policy against a very rare situation.

And no, adding snapfire guns doesn't make the tank better at what it's meant to do. It adds nothing against vehicles, nothing against MEQs, and very little against lighter infantry (which aren't a LRBT's main target), and it adds very little durability.

You keep seeing the 20 points as simnply being for 6 snap shots, even though I have pointed out several times that the sponsons give you far more advantages than that.

All you've pointed out is unlikely scenarios where it's possible that your sponsons will do something other than eat up 20 points. The fact that it's possible to come up with a scenario, no matter how unlikely, where any upgrade does something useful doesn't make those upgrades good.

it is kinda like saying you are taking melta vets, but really can't afford the 20 points to max them out, so you are only giving them one.

Except it's not like that at all. Adding the second and third melta gun to a veteran squad triples the firepower. Adding worthless snapfire guns to a tank adds a tiny increase in effectiveness. It should be obvious why one of these is a mandatory "upgrade", and the other is a waste of points.

On a side note, you SHOULD be taking both good and bad rolls into account, and building your list with safeguards, accordingly. That is the diffence between a good player and a great player. A good player plays the odds, and build his list accordingly. A great player plays the odds, but also builds safeguards into his list and tactics, for when the dice don't follow the odds, and everything goes sideways.

There's a difference between "taking bad rolls into account" and "ignoring how unlikely a particular bad roll is and spending too many points protecting against it".

I give up...
You do not listen...
You are simply too fixated on "snap shots" to have a real conversation...

Those HBs are not there only to "snap shot". Sometimes, (quite often depending on your target) ONLY those heavy bolters will be firing, because 9 HB shots are better than a single Battle Cannon, when facing MANY types of targets. That is the purpose of taking a LRBT....flexibiity.

If all you want is the Large Blast, then take one of the many other HS options...

 Alerian wrote:
You are simply too fixated on "snap shots" to have a real conversation...

And you're too fixated on unlikely "what if" scenarios to realize that the vast majority of the time all you're getting is a couple snapfire heavy bolters.

Sometimes, (quite often depending on your target) ONLY those heavy bolters will be firing, because 9 HB shots are better than a single Battle Cannon, when facing MANY types of targets. That is the purpose of taking a LRBT....flexibiity.

And what exactly are those "many" targets where an average of 4.5 heavy bolter hits is better than a battlecannon shot? Sure, the HBs are probably better against a single guardsman, but why are you shooting a 170 point tank at a target like that instead of finishing it off with something less expensive?

If all you want is the Large Blast, then take one of the many other HS options...

Why would I do that when the LRBT offers exactly what I want in many situations, and has major advantages over those other options?

sorry to derail the thread but I'm just wondering: what artillery is working in 6th? I'm currently running a couple of basilisks, a couple of griffons, and four thud guns in an artillery based list. but I'm wondering if anyone else is running anything else and having good results?

I'm having a lot of success with 3 LR Executioners with LC and sponson plasma. Add a double flamer Chimera full of Harker, plasma vets and an AC, deep-strike 10 Storm Troopers then fill the rest of your points with infantry. Give the infantry vox and a heavy weapon(I prefer AC), give one unit flamers and another grenade launchers and move them up to draw fire. Basically, deep-strike the Storm-Troopers to the logical spot, outflank with the Chimera and hope you come in on the right side, advance the fodder units and hold the rest as a static gunline. You'll need to be devious but this has recently defeated some scary lists. Two things this list lacks are flyers and anti-air, as I have neither I can't advise you but I guess I'd take out a few units of guardsmen to put in a Vendetta and a Hydra.

Peregrine and Alerian...

I think both of you are just playing the way you prefer as far as play styles. One prefers more cushion in case of failure as well as maximizing their units even if it requires more cost and one prefers to play by the average statistics and odds.

I always side with the average statistics and minimizing my units so I can take more elsewhere. I'm not one for upgrading my vehicles/infantry with stuff that provides cushion for failure. However I can see Alerians point that he prefers it that way.

It's just how you both build your lists and your comfort level of how you each prefer to build your list it seems like. Just leave it at that and the OP can decide what he/she prefers.

In my experience, the Hull heavy bolters arn't worth it. With the LRBT I'm shooting at marines, or medium armor. The heavy bolter does very little against both.

I'm starting to take more tanks to the table, instead of only a handful of high point-cost ones. So two squadroned LRBTs finish off a marine squad. In all honesty, I'd rather save the 20 points to spend on a cheap outflanking sentinel with an autocannon. That'll do roughly the same amount of damage as six snapfiring heavy bolters (not much), but it will draw my opponent's fire for a turn, contest, and perhaps give me linebreaker.


But I do agree with Alerian in the sense that large blasts don't work against and opponent who knows how to spread his units out effectively. In at case, the Large Blast shot doesn't do much.The problem is, nine heavy bolters at BS 3 don't do much either. In that case, kit out a punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and pask. If your looking for a versatility against all types infantry units, that's the tank to go with. The punisher will mow down hordes and even fell a few terminators with sheer weight of fire (at BS 4!). It's not a tank I run often, do to its points cost, but you do get what you pay for.


Away from tanks:

I'm finding the HarkerStar to be, quite franky, awesome. I buy harker, and then buy the forward sentries for a +2 to a cover save. Stick those guys in ruins with plasma guns, and they are not going anywhere with that nice 2+ save. It's costly as all get-out, but so far they've consistently lasted until the end of the game. I'm trying to think of an alternative to the really expensive plasma, but the other weapons have just been underwhelming.

 kestril wrote:
In all honesty, I'd rather save the 20 points to spend on a cheap outflanking sentinel with an autocannon. That'll do roughly the same amount of damage as six snapfiring heavy bolters (not much), but it will draw my opponent's fire for a turn, contest, and perhaps give me linebreaker.

I wish this part was true >_< I dont think sentinels count as denial units since they have an AV. So they can't contest and they can't give linebreaker. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to do this haha

syypher wrote:

 kestril wrote:
In all honesty, I'd rather save the 20 points to spend on a cheap outflanking sentinel with an autocannon. That'll do roughly the same amount of damage as six snapfiring heavy bolters (not much), but it will draw my opponent's fire for a turn, contest, and perhaps give me linebreaker.

I wish this part was true >_< I dont think sentinels count as denial units since they have an AV. So they can't contest and they can't give linebreaker. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to do this haha

Ah, probably true. I don't have the rulebook with me ATM. It depends on if walkers can contest or not.

 kestril wrote:

syypher wrote:

 kestril wrote:
In all honesty, I'd rather save the 20 points to spend on a cheap outflanking sentinel with an autocannon. That'll do roughly the same amount of damage as six snapfiring heavy bolters (not much), but it will draw my opponent's fire for a turn, contest, and perhaps give me linebreaker.

I wish this part was true >_< I dont think sentinels count as denial units since they have an AV. So they can't contest and they can't give linebreaker. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to do this haha

Ah, probably true. I don't have the rulebook with me ATM. It depends on if walkers can contest or not.

Vehicles of any kind can not contest unless the mission rules explicitly say otherwise.

 yeri wrote:
sorry to derail the thread but I'm just wondering: what artillery is working in 6th? I'm currently running a couple of basilisks, a couple of griffons, and four thud guns in an artillery based list. but I'm wondering if anyone else is running anything else and having good results?

Pretty much every artillery piece in the vanilla IG dex besides the medusa is awesome, and even the medusa can be made useful if you're clever and running a ton of chimeras.

The two best ones I've used though would have to be the griffon and the colossus, as they fill roles few things in our army can fill for the points. If it weren't for the fact that I run primarily infantry, I'd probably take 4 griffons and 2 collossi to every match. The problem with bringing artillery with foot IG is that it's just begging to get slagged by enemy AT, and before you say it, yes, you can hide a couple of artillery pieces, but you can't hide 6+ and keep them all out of line of sight from everything AND bubblewrap all of them with infantry.

However, something like 2 colossi with 4 leman russes (3 squads of 2,) and using the leman russes as a mobile wall to protect the colossi wouldn't be a bad idea.

I run almost a hybrid list, more so a gunline but i have a manticore, 3 lrbt(2 in a squad) and then 2 vendettas. Everything else is bassicaly hiding behind my line. My vendettas have PCS with flamers for objectives. Im still looking for a way to incorporate stormtroopers but am not sure how or where without taking out too much.