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So I'm about to buy a metric s**tton of Grey Knights. I plan on having 2 10-man squads of Purifiers in Stormravens. Brotherhood Champions seem ridiculously good on paper. But a local Grey Knight player tells me they "aren't all they're cracked up to be." What's your take on them, and should I include them?

They are cheap HQs that are REALLY good in challenges.

So they are really good at low point games but above 1500 its best to take a Librarian or GM(or whatever special character you will be running)


In your case, you will be running Crowe to unlock Purifiers as troops. Either hide him somewhere or, if not your Warlord, run him at the biggest scariest enemy HQ or monster and trollollol him for the entire game.

That's the other idea i had. But i was going to have the bro champs join the purifiers and use the grand strategy to make them troops, as i really, really want to avoid the Crowe Tax. So my HQ will be a grand master, do you think i should still take libbys, bro champs, or leave the purifiers alone and just have them in ravens?

Grandstrategy doesn't make them Troops. It makes them scoring, meaning you still need to take 2 Troops.

and Crowe is awsome. The tax isn't that bad to be honest as he is cheap as far as our HQs go.

Right, essentially troops. And i'm going to have 2 10-man strike squads to cover that. I see crowe as being really good, but his rules in close combat of not having a set number of attacks and only having 2 wounds makes me really nervous. It may seem like spending 200 points on 2 models to join 2 squads may seem silly, but i feel like in theory it will work. If not, please convince me otherwise.

I tend to use my Bro champs as chaplains and use their special rule to allow the unit he is with reroll hits on the charge. Works great with just about anything. But an inquisitor psyker or librarian could also fill this roll with the prescience ability. Heroic sacrifice is great though and can really screw your opponent over if he happens to be in base contact with something worth while.

That's what i was mainly going off of because i face a LOT of tyranids where i am (big games with very few gaunts/stealers but a lot of MCs)

Wait, Crowe's rules for CC make you nervous but not the brotherhood champion's rules?

Crowe is better then Bro Champs because he makes Purifiers troops. I can't state just how good that is.

For only 50 pts over a Bro Champ, you get Purifiers as Troops and Cleansing Flame. You do lose your NFS, but you now Rend on a 4+ so its really a wash.


Bro Champs are ok, but they are one of those HQs that really doesn't add much to the army. Unlike Crowe, Librarians, or Grandmasters who are force multipliers.

Now I'm taking another look at Crowe. I really think it's just batreps setting me off to think he's less-than-adequate. So get rid of the 2 champs, have a grand master in 1 raven and crowe in the other?

Thats what I do, except I never put anybody in the Stormravens.

Stormravens are gunboats and using them as transports is too risky. Those Str10 no armor hits when you blow up are not nice.

Plus you have to drop into Hover mode to assault out of the Ravens so its putting your ~250 pt model at risk.


Better to just give the Ravens Hurricane Bolters, Assault cannon, MM, and Psybolts and let them go to town on the enemy.

Crowe can't join a unit as he is not an IC, so he is not using his Titans herald special rule to the maximum. However purifiers are just that awesome that it makes Crowe a good choice if the army is themed correctly.

Oh yeah that's right. Darn. Crowe, Y U NO IC? Well, I guess i can have the Purifiers without a character and then have try to get Crowe to do something. perhaps walk him up behind the LRC?

Pretty much.

He's already more then earned his points by unlocking Purifiers. Whatever he accomplishes afterwards is gravy.

Actually that wouldn't be half bad at all. 1 Grand Master with 7 Paladins and Crowe assaulting. Hmmm...

Yeah hiding him behind Land raiders is the best way to play him so he doesn't take a lascannon to the face and die.

In my mind I just imagined a baby-version of Crowe getting blown in half by a blue laser as it was like "BFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT"

They are not worth it, ever. To be honest, the main reason to not take one is that you can only take two HQ's, and there are at least 3 you would take before the Champion. If you want cheap, take an Inquisitor, Coteaz. Or both, I do and the psychic buffs are more usefull than one guy in a challenge will ever be.

GM's are better because of grand stratagy and all the buffs and terminator armour and a hammer will see him do well in cc to.

It really depends on how competitive you want to be as well. If you want a cheap HQ, take Coteaz, he is hands down a million times better than a champion

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats what I do, except I never put anybody in the Stormravens.

Stormravens are gunboats and using them as transports is too risky. Those Str10 no armor hits when you blow up are not nice.

Plus you have to drop into Hover mode to assault out of the Ravens so its putting your ~250 pt model at risk.


Better to just give the Ravens Hurricane Bolters, Assault cannon, MM, and Psybolts and let them go to town on the enemy.

Although the gunboat looks nice, you are better of giving it a multi-melta and lascannon combo, nothing else. Grey Knights have plenty of anti infantry but what they lack is anti tank, particularly melta and las. The raven has both and can shoot two targets at once. Picture this, the raven comes in, blows up a landraider with the multi-melta, and a predator with the lascannons (about 350 points of damage). Next turn, go into hover mode and drop of your deadly cargo, which can either have close range shots or charge to mess things up.

There is no point making a raven a gun-boat, its to expensive for to little reward. You have to be aggressive with them, casue either way, your opponent will target them with everything they have.

A TL-assault cannon is mathamatically superior to a TL-lascannon in every way except range, which is mitigated by being on a flyer.

With psybolts it becomes even better.

Psycannons mean GKs don't need Melta.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A TL-assault cannon is mathamatically superior to a TL-lascannon in every way except range, which is mitigated by being on a flyer.

With psybolts it becomes even better.

Psycannons mean GKs don't need Melta.

But with psybolts it becomes to expensive for my liking, and math does not mean anything, honestly how many 40k games have gone exactly by how math dictates they should. I tried the assault cannon but it never worked, the lascannon does a better job for me. The assault you have to take psybolts but as I said before, it makes it to much for what it is.

Sorry but psycannon is not an answer to lack of melta in the codex.

Ignore the math if you want. It doesn't change the fact that doing that is insanely stupid.

Every game goes exactly as the math dictates, which is a random spread. However you can know what the possabilities are and thus know what your chances are. That determines what is a better weapon.


Why are Mandrakes a bad unit? Because their mathamatical probabilties suck. You can tell just by looking at the stats.


However Lascannon vs Assault Cannon is harder to see because the rules don't tell you everything at a glance.

Rending is a very powerful mechanic. Much more powerful then having a higher strength.


The person that knows the probabilities and uses them to his advantage will win over the person who blatently ignores them.

I think the point Tuiman was trying to make was that the storm raven is too expensive to put psybolt on. But i agree that a assault cannon is a better option especially if it zooms into rear armour.

I disagree completely. its not too expensive, especially when you have Hurricane Bolters to make the most of Flyers shooting 4 weapons + PotMS.

The person that knows the probabilities and uses them to his advantage will win over the person who blatently ignores them.

Challenge accepted, I don't ignore math, I know its there, but I don't get so hyped up in it because on the day, that will only come back to bite you. Example, 5 terminators take 6 wounds, according to math, I should fail one of these. I fail 4.

Before we completely kill this thread, I will ask nicely, if you would not mind, doing the math for the assault cannon (with and without psybolt) vs lascannon agasint AV12, 13, 14 and P-m me it, as I'm curious to actually see the difference.

Maybe I just have bad luck with my dice, I will keep my lascannons for now, and have magnatized anyway so can always change later.

Back on topic lol

I will admit the champion may be usefull but only if you know your opponent is bringing something nasty like abbadon or mephistion, so you can take them out in a challenge. Otherwise go inquisitor.

So I wake up this morning thinking, "Oh yeah, lemme go check my thread to see if anyone gave any helpful information!" lolnope, just a rant between lascannons/assault cannons. ANYWAY, yeah i think i'll just use no champions unless i'm against nids. because i really just kitbashed the models from the terminator boxes i got, so if i really need to i can have them be libbies, champs, or inquisitors.

Brotherhood Champion is actually pretty sucky in challenges. He is only good in challenges if your opponent brings IC alone without supporting squad. Because if your opponent takes your challenge with sergeant, that means Brotherhood Champion gets grand total 1 attack.

Titans Herald sounds good, until you realise that for 100 points you could get either Coteaz or OM Inquisitor in TDA, both which can get Prescience which gives you re-rolls for To-Hit in for Shooting and CC, and in your opponents turn too..

What? He can Rapier Strike a sergeant for D3 attacks. Sergeants are characters.


Anyway, the point of a challange with a Bro Champ is to neuter a character. Not necessarily kill him.

I always use Blade Shield. 2+/3++ rerollable saves mean the Bro Champ is not dying any time soon. When he's doing that to a 300+ point special character I think its worth it.

Plus you have the threat that, if you do manage to kill the Bro Champ, he will likely take you out with him.

The chance of Heroic Sacrifice working is around 60% and the enemy gets no saves. They are simply removed from play.


Only St Celestine and Thawn can come back from Heroic Sacrific.

Brotherhood Champs are ridiculously powerful in challenges, thus allowing DH Justicars to wail on enemies while the Bro Champ slayswarlords left, right, centre, slightly to the left of centre and above to boot.

Against MCs/ICs he has D3 Int 10 atacks, and against non ICs, such Sgts, he has just 1, which is all he should need. He hits majority of models on a 3+, and can rerolls to hit on the charge. He has Str 4, AP 3 force weapon with rerolls to wound, and if the enemy kills him he can Heroic Sacrifice. Send him at the nastiest enemy model you're opponent has, even warlords, like the Swarmlord and Abaddon.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What? He can Rapier Strike a sergeant for D3 attacks. Sergeants are characters.

Sergeants are characters, not Independent Characters. Rapier Strike only works on Independent Characters and MCs. If you've been playing the rules wrong, no wonder you think he is good.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I always use Blade Shield. 2+/3++ rerollable saves mean the Bro Champ is not dying any time soon. When he's doing that to a 300+ point special character I think its worth it.

Yes, it is worth it, if your opponent doesn't understand how Bro Champ works and actually allows you to do this.
More likely, he will accept the challenge with sergeant which you have around 66% chance of killing. 11% if that sergeant has 2+ armour. You cannot use blade shield if you want to kill him though, and that while you're in challenge, that 300+ special character and his supporting squad kills each and everyone from your Bro Champs squad. This means you will probably have pretty nasty penalty to that LD check of yours for losing the combat. If you're lucky, enemy will Sweeping Advance you. Pretty unlikely though, most of those 300+ points SC's seem to have Terminator armour. So next turn your bro-champ is all alone to be shot to death.

Brotherhood Champions are good in challenges against expensive, single model units. But they always need to have that supporting squad, because otherwise your opponent just shoots him down. If he is alone, killing him via shooting is about as hard as killing 2 tactical marines.

My point is: He is extremely situational. He will work fine against stupid opponents but against better ones he will only limit the tactical options they have by being counter-charge unit. For same price, you could have Coteaz, who is actual force multiplier. If he had 2 wounds and 4th option of just attacking with 2+1 attacks, he would be worth 100 points. Now? Not really.

Btw, against Swarmlord, Bro Champion has around 5% killing him via Rapier strike if he gets chrage and around 20% chance with heroic sacrifice. Not something I'd make a battleplan out of.

Edit: If your opponent has habit of sending 200+ points characters unsupported straight towards you, Brotherhood champion is good. Otherwise, he is pretty meh.