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So my friends and I are starting to expand our armies to higher points and I am so far the closest to fielding an apocolyse army. I figured I would get a super heavy down the line but I am unsure of how they are really use as Ive only read little posts here and there of them. I have pretty much narrowed it down to the Baneblade and I believe the shadowsword(the one with the volcano cannon i believe). I know the baneblade can be great against most targets and the shadowsword is basically a titan hunter but what roles could these tanks fill on the field. I have a ton of leman russes to back them up and a nice foot horde to run up with them.

I havent used them personally, but I've been told that the Baneblade functions like a massive Leman Russ. Going from that, I'd take the standard Baneblade, for simple utility.

Take that with a pinch of salt though, due to my lack of experience with them.

If you don't have a very specific role in mind for your tank, take the Shadowsword. STR D is just that powerful.

Baneblade is a marvelous defensive unit with craploads of armor well-suited to anchor a flank and blast away at the enemy, the Shadowsword lacks the sheer variety of armaments available to the Baneblade, but is longer-ranged and better at killing Super-Heavies.

The Baneblade is definitely the better of the two unless the other guy's got access to Titans.

Also consider the Praetor launcher and the Marauder Destroyer, both are effective anti-aircraft or anti-vehicle Super-Heavies, though neither is nearly as tough or versatile as a Baneblade.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't have a very specific role in mind for your tank, take the Shadowsword. STR D is just that powerful.

^

Baneblade will do you fine. But Shadowsword will be remarkable.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Shadowsword lacks the sheer variety of armaments available to the Baneblade, but is longer-ranged and better at killing Super-Heavies.

And better at killing infantry, and normal vehicles, and, well, everything else in the game. The sponsons are the same on both tanks so the only advantage the Baneblade has is a hull demolisher cannon which is usually out of range anyway on an Apocalypse-size table. So it comes down to main gun vs. main gun, and the Baneblade's main gun is weak. Sure it's a 10" blast, but at only STR 9 (bad vs. vehicles) and it allows cover saves (bad vs. infantry, especially since cover is universal in Apocalypse), and it doesn't inflict instant death (bad vs. MCs). The Shadowsword, on the other hand, just kills whatever is under the template. Infantry and MCs are vaporized instantly with no pesky cover/armor/rolling to wound, and vehicles take an automatic AP 2 penetrating hit with no cover.

TBH I can't really think of a single target where the Baneblade does the job better than the Shadowsword. STR D is just that good.

Also consider the Praetor launcher and the Marauder Destroyer, both are effective anti-aircraft or anti-vehicle Super-Heavies, though neither is nearly as tough or versatile as a Baneblade.

Well, that's assuming he has the cash for those models. A Marauder Destroyer is an awesome unit (and IMO the best model GW has ever made), but it's also three times the cost of a Baneblade/Shadowsword, and the Praetor isn't much better.

Also, the Minotaur is better than the Praetor. The 7" earthshaker shot is better than two 5" battle cannon shots, especially now that blasts hit vehicles at full strength. Meanwhile the Praetor's other missiles are too weak to take, the anti-horde missiles are questionable in a game where most armies have 3+ saves (though good if you can guarantee you don't face marines), and the AA missiles are way too expensive to even consider as an AA unit.

As i read the rules for the two and their armaments I myself have leaned towards the shadowsword more. I am still curious as how strength D works or what is it? I have not come across the rules for that yet.

I also have not heard of the Praetor launcher or the Marauder destroyer, where can I find these models? If im correct isnt the Marauder a flyer?

tankboy145 wrote:
As i read the rules for the two and their armaments I myself have leaned towards the shadowsword more. I am still curious as how strength D works or what is it? I have not come across the rules for that yet.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf

Short version: against vehicles, automatic penetrating hit with no cover save allowed. Against anything with toughness automatic wound with no cover saves allowed and instant death.

I also have not heard of the Praetor launcher or the Marauder destroyer, where can I find these models? If im correct isnt the Marauder a flyer?

Praetor. Rules in IA:Apocalypse.

Marauder Destroyer. Rules in IA:Aeronautica.

I had just found the Strength D rule and thats crazy! pretty much set on the shadowsword. I also saw the marauder and for 400pts im not sure if its worth it to take that. For a TL lascannon and 2 TL heavy bolters, and 10 bombs, unless there are more upgrades in the other books. Also are the shadow swords profile in IA:Apocalypse or where would I go to find that?

tankboy145 wrote:
I also saw the marauder and for 400pts im not sure if its worth it to take that. For a TL lascannon and 2 TL heavy bolters, and 10 bombs, unless there are more upgrades in the other books.

That's the basic Marauder (and it's not terrible, that's a lot of bombs). The recommended one is the Marauder Destroyer, which trades half the bomb load and the LCs for 3x TL ACs, 8x hellstrike missiles, upgrades the tail turret to TL assault cannons, and adds more armor and +1 BS against ground targets. And, most importantly, is the best model GW have ever produced.

Also are the shadow swords profile in IA:Apocalypse or where would I go to find that?

Apocalypse rulebook, the original one that started the expansion.

Oh hmm I must have skipped over it because I didnt see the shadowsword in there. And that actaully sounds a lot better now lol that destroyer is insane! The bombs do seem like they could thin out hordes of troops but that upgraded destroyer varient just is crazy, i assume its on Forgeworld as a model? A little off topic of the super heavies but how is the thunderbolt if youve used it? for 130pts im assuming a vendetta is still supreme over its 180pts?

tankboy145 wrote:
i assume its on Forgeworld as a model?

Yes. I posted a link to it earlier.

A little off topic of the super heavies but how is the thunderbolt if youve used it? for 130pts im assuming a vendetta is still supreme over its 180pts?

It's a cool model, but that's all. It has slightly better firepower against other flyers (ACs are better than LCs against low AV), but it costs a lot more and lacks the Vendetta's armor and transport capacity and uses up a much more valuable heavy support slot. Pretty much it's a victim of the "all flyers have skyfire" change, it used to be good because it was one of a very few models that had AA weapons, but now all the ground attack flyers are just as good at AA.

(Also, note that the Apocalypse version is obsolete. The current rules for the Thunderbolt are in IA:Aeronautica.)

of those 2 the Shadowsword will make a mess of any single target you point it at. S D means it ill auto penetrate armoru (no need to roll) and the Large Blast means you are pretty much goign to hit unless you roll a bad scatter. It also ignores cover (thanks to S D).

But the Baneblades sheer amount of guns and the fact they can all shoot at different targets makes it the best TAC superheavy IMHO. if i remember right the main cannon is a 10" blast with hig S and AP3/4 so will take HUGHE chunks out of infantry.

On top of that it has 2 lascannons (or 4 if you pay extra points), 2 TL Heavy Bolters AND a Demolisher Cannon.



So yeah. For dedicated anti-armour (and 2+ saves) - the Shadowsword is your best friend. For all round bad-assery, go for the Baneblade.

Okay I will have to look through some of these other models, i looked at the thunderbolt and pretty much said it was cool but with the fragile armor of 10 it doesnt seem anywhere as good as the vendetta would be. That marauder is a very tempting unit.

Now im not sure how the apocolypse rules tie in with 6th but if im correct since ordnance makes everything else snap fire wouldnt all those sponson weapons be a waste? It says that all the mainguns on superheavies count as being ordnance and I wanted to double check. The shadowsword just seems the best way to go since its got a large blast and anything under the blast now is hit at full strength and the power of the weapon is insane.

The baneblade might still be a possibility as it just has so many weapons to fire at separate targets. I mean you could take the sponsons on the shadow sword but as i still havent dound its profile im assuming its 100pts to do so.

 Praxiss wrote:
if i remember right the main cannon is a 10" blast with hig S and AP3/4 so will take HUGHE chunks out of infantry

Except it allows cover and has to roll to wound. On a crowded Apocalypse table cover is almost universal, so the Shadowsword's main gun will usually do more damage thanks to ignoring cover and never having to roll to wound.

On top of that it has 2 lascannons (or 4 if you pay extra points), 2 TL Heavy Bolters AND a Demolisher Cannon.

Which, except for the demolisher cannon (which is often out of range of anything useful on an Apocalypse table), the Shadowsword also has.

So yeah. For dedicated anti-armour (and 2+ saves) - the Shadowsword is your best friend. For all round bad-assery, go for the Baneblade.

Correction: for all round bad-assery, the Shadowsword is your best friend. If you have a formation that specifically requires a Baneblade, go for the Baneblade and wish you could take a better tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tankboy145 wrote:
Okay I will have to look through some of these other models, i looked at the thunderbolt and pretty much said it was cool but with the fragile armor of 10 it doesnt seem anywhere as good as the vendetta would be.

You need to get IA:Aeronautica, which has updated rules for the Thunderbolt. Among other things it is now AV 11.

Now im not sure how the apocolypse rules tie in with 6th but if im correct since ordnance makes everything else snap fire wouldnt all those sponson weapons be a waste?

Superheavies used to have a rule that they could always fire everything, even ordnance weapons (or multiple ordnance weapons). There's some (I assume) accidental ambiguity in 6th since "may fire" does not mean "may fire at full BS instead of snap fire", but any sensible Apocalypse group is going to house rule it that everything fires normally. Otherwise you get stupid situations like a titan with 5+ guns only being allowed to shoot one of them each turn.

The only superheavy I've used was a skullhammer, and it dropped a couple templates (that didn't really do that much) before eating some strength D. Four meks and a KFF don't do a lot against autopens that ignore cover.

Basically I would say: If you want to kill everything, go for the Shadowsword.

If you have some Ork in you and you just like holding a ginormous template over your opponent's army, then the Baneblade is what you want.
In this case be sure to add extra dakka... i mean sponsons... for maximum fun.

I would say im sold on the shadowsword. I talked about it with the guys at our local gaming store and they think its the best way to go. I agree with all the points about auto pen and not rolling saves and causing insta death is crazy. Its ap 2 so basically if you dont have an invuln save your dead and if you dont have eternal warrior your even more dead lol.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
if i remember right the main cannon is a 10" blast with hig S and AP3/4 so will take HUGHE chunks out of infantry

Except it allows cover and has to roll to wound. On a crowded Apocalypse table cover is almost universal, so the Shadowsword's main gun will usually do more damage thanks to ignoring cover and never having to roll to wound.

On top of that it has 2 lascannons (or 4 if you pay extra points), 2 TL Heavy Bolters AND a Demolisher Cannon.

Which, except for the demolisher cannon (which is often out of range of anything useful on an Apocalypse table), the Shadowsword also has.

So yeah. For dedicated anti-armour (and 2+ saves) - the Shadowsword is your best friend. For all round bad-assery, go for the Baneblade.

Correction: for all round bad-assery, the Shadowsword is your best friend. If you have a formation that specifically requires a Baneblade, go for the Baneblade and wish you could take a better tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tankboy145 wrote:
Okay I will have to look through some of these other models, i looked at the thunderbolt and pretty much said it was cool but with the fragile armor of 10 it doesnt seem anywhere as good as the vendetta would be.

You need to get IA:Aeronautica, which has updated rules for the Thunderbolt. Among other things it is now AV 11.

Now im not sure how the apocolypse rules tie in with 6th but if im correct since ordnance makes everything else snap fire wouldnt all those sponson weapons be a waste?

Superheavies used to have a rule that they could always fire everything, even ordnance weapons (or multiple ordnance weapons). There's some (I assume) accidental ambiguity in 6th since "may fire" does not mean "may fire at full BS instead of snap fire", but any sensible Apocalypse group is going to house rule it that everything fires normally. Otherwise you get stupid situations like a titan with 5+ guns only being allowed to shoot one of them each turn.

I keep forgettignthe Shadowsword can take lascannosn. When i got mine there was only the resin forgeworld kit whcih came with targetters (to give it BS4) instead of lascannons. So mine has the Volcano cannons and 2 TL HB sponsons.

Screw it, get both!

Now that I look at super heavies under a 6th edition eye, the stormsword looks the best. The short range is not great but the 10" super blast that ignores cover seems like a very good buy. It may only be able to hit a small portion of their army but it will completely murder anything in that portion. Also, it is literally impossible to miss with a 10" blast.

It is really easy to switch between shadowsword and stormsword, just don't glue the barrel in.

Now also a side question, is it worth it to put the sponsons on the shadowsword? I assume its 100pts

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Shadowsword lacks the sheer variety of armaments available to the Baneblade, but is longer-ranged and better at killing Super-Heavies.

And better at killing infantry, and normal vehicles, and, well, everything else in the game. The sponsons are the same on both tanks so the only advantage the Baneblade has is a hull demolisher cannon which is usually out of range anyway on an Apocalypse-size table. So it comes down to main gun vs. main gun, and the Baneblade's main gun is weak. Sure it's a 10" blast, but at only STR 9 (bad vs. vehicles) and it allows cover saves (bad vs. infantry, especially since cover is universal in Apocalypse), and it doesn't inflict instant death (bad vs. MCs). The Shadowsword, on the other hand, just kills whatever is under the template. Infantry and MCs are vaporized instantly with no pesky cover/armor/rolling to wound, and vehicles take an automatic AP 2 penetrating hit with no cover.

TBH I can't really think of a single target where the Baneblade does the job better than the Shadowsword. STR D is just that good.

Let's run down the list of armaments again.

Shadowsword:
One volcano cannon
Two twin-linked heavy bolters

Baneblade:
Baneblade cannon
Co-axial autocannon
Three twin-linked heavy bolters
Two lascannons
Demolisher cannon

The Shadowsword is very good at killing one thing very, very dead. The Baneblade is better at engaging multiple targets, and better at shorter ranges. Also, a 10" blast S 9 weapon is actually a lot better than a 5" blast S D weapon against anything with T4 (which encompasses the vast majority of Terminators, among other things) since you can hit a lot more, and if I'm recalling the co-axial rules correctly you've got a 75% chance of getting to reroll the scatter dice, making it more accurate in addition to larger...

Strength D, to recap, is an automatic penetrating hit on vehicles and an automatic Instant Death wound against anything else. Comparing to S9 against any infantry with T4 or below, that means it's got a 100% chance of getting a wound compared to the 83% chance of 2+, both inflicting Instant Death. Now, a 5" blast is half the radius of a 10" blast, meaning that the 10" blast covers four times the area.

The Baneblade is definitely better at killing Terminators and anything lighter than the Shadowsword is, the Shadowsword is better at killing T5+ things, Monstrous Creatures, and vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tankboy145 wrote:
Now also a side question, is it worth it to put the sponsons on the shadowsword? I assume its 100pts

Shadowswords can't get sponsons. That's part of the problem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Shadowswords can't get sponsons. That's part of the problem.

Sure they can. The options include extra sponsons, trading sponsons for armour, extra front HBs, targeters and command upgrade.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440065_Imperial_Guard_Datasheet_-_Shadowsword.pdf

I fail to see the value of the shadowsword, if you're looking for SD spam, titans do it so much better.

Our group plays Apoc games fairly often and Str.D weapons are the name of the game.

Baneblades fall like any other tank to enemy super-heavies so you might as well be hunting them in the first place. When equipped with 4 sponsoon upgrades on the stormblade you are throwing out 4 lascannons in addition to the volcannon cannon which is just a nightmare for enemy super-heavies to deal with.

Be warned though, even a scout titan with can ruin your stormblade pretty quick when in range so keep your backfield secure, hopefully behind an aegis line.

Shadowswords seem great and are against elite low model count armies. banebaldes work better aginst large model count armies

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Strength D, to recap, is an automatic penetrating hit on vehicles and an automatic Instant Death wound against anything else. Comparing to S9 against any infantry with T4 or below, that means it's got a 100% chance of getting a wound compared to the 83% chance of 2+, both inflicting Instant Death. Now, a 5" blast is half the radius of a 10" blast, meaning that the 10" blast covers four times the area.

Don't forget about cover, which is almost guaranteed on a crowded Apocalypse table, which brings the Baneblade's average per-hit down to 55% of the Shadowsword's (or worse, if they have better than a 5+ save). IOW, the Baneblade has to hit twice as many models to do the same amount of damage as the Shadowsword. It might do that since the template is 4x larger, but often a lot of that 10" template just hits empty space since a smaller template still covers the entire unit.

And of course that's just considering a break-even scenario. If you want to justify the Baneblade it has to do better than the Shadowsword, and by a large margin, against infantry to make up for the Shadowsword's dominating advantage in vehicle/MC killing (you know, the things you tend to see in Apocalypse games).

 minigun762 wrote:
I fail to see the value of the shadowsword, if you're looking for SD spam, titans do it so much better.

The value of the Shadowsword is its price. Not everyone can afford $500+ for a Warhound, while $100ish for a Shadowsword is a lot more reasonable. I agree that if you have an unlimited budget and care primarily about the rules instead of a particular awesome model the titans are better, but the context of the OP is a choice between the cheap plastic kits.

 captain collius wrote:
Shadowswords seem great and are against elite low model count armies. Shadowswords work better aginst large model count armies

Fixed that for you.

Good point on the price tag difference. I hadn't considered that.

Yea I had thought of titans but as im in college and the military isnt exactly a job that makes you rich lol. I would love a titan but its just way too much and as also mentioned my friends and I are just getting up too around 3000 pts an army so in about a year or so whe will probably have a bit more for apoc and I dont wanna be the d*** and bring a titan our first game and make my friends never want to play apoc again lol. As i noticed basically for 50pts less than a baneblade you get a destroyer cannon and you lose out on the hull demolisher cannon. I almost cannot see why you wouldnt go with the shadow sword over the baneblade aside from the blast being larger but the destroyer cannon is crazy.

If I try to recal how I would start a list I would pretty much have the shadow sword and an emperors fist tank company to just have leman russ spam the board, and then just a mass of foot guard supporting that and rushing up when needed. I will pretty much have my back field secure.

tankboy145 wrote:
Yea I had thought of titans but as im in college

Could scratchbuild the Shadowsword with some plasticard and a cardboard tube, then spend the money on raging face?