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When I lived in the UK, many people I spoke to were anti-Europe. But on further questioning, most were also ignorant of the legal structures of Europe and for example, the difference between EU courts and the EU commission.
With the debate rolling around to a referendum on EU exit for Britain, which will almost certainly lead to exit if my experience of talking to people in my two years over there has given me any bead on the public mood, what do you see as being the benefit of leaving the EU?
What jumps out at me immediately is that you guys could easily further deregulate your financial sector and tax them even less, perhaps lowering your corporate tax rate. This would draw business from the other EU countries iinto these sectors. You would also no longer contribute to structural funds in poorer EU nations and so on. On the subject of bailouts, I don't think much would change, since those are mostly self interested moves and they are loans with interest rates in any case- the money isn't being given away. it's a source of future profit for the UK as long as those economies don't completely crash. And if they did crash, they would directly harm the UK, so it's doubly in their interest to avoid that.
I mean, apart from that, what would you gain to offset the lack of freedom of movement, the lack of freedom of trade and the lack of influence over the region's politics?
The right wing paint Europe as some great enemy as it gives them something to blame all their problems on, the real issue is people have started to buy it and now want out. Which will cause untold uncertainty and probably economic collapse.
The right wing paint Europe as some great enemy as it gives them something to blame all their problems on, the real issue is people have started to buy it and now want out. Which will cause untold uncertainty and probably economic collapse.
Er... really?
I always thought that the UK always had pragmatic, stable economy....
The right wing paint Europe as some great enemy as it gives them something to blame all their problems on, the real issue is people have started to buy it and now want out. Which will cause untold uncertainty and probably economic collapse.
Er... really?
I always thought that the UK always had pragmatic, stable economy....
Not at the moment, there's quite a good chance we will head into a triple dip recession as it is. If we had to negotiate our way out of the EU, and we wouldn't be negotiating from a very good position, the uncertainty could have massive repercussions. 60% of our overseas trade is with the EU and if those who engage in such trade have no idea how much things are going to cost to export it could cost millions of jobs.
Not at the moment, there's quite a good chance we will head into a triple dip recession as it is. If we had to negotiate our way out of the EU, and we wouldn't be negotiating from a very good position, the uncertainty could have massive repercussions. 60% of our overseas trade is with the EU and if those who engage in such trade have no idea how much things are going to cost to export it could cost millions of jobs.
I don't really see why Britain wouldn't get free trade agreements with the EU anyways, seeing as they already follow all of the regulations. (I assume.) I mean Canada is getting one and we're no where near the EU.
Not at the moment, there's quite a good chance we will head into a triple dip recession as it is. If we had to negotiate our way out of the EU, and we wouldn't be negotiating from a very good position, the uncertainty could have massive repercussions. 60% of our overseas trade is with the EU and if those who engage in such trade have no idea how much things are going to cost to export it could cost millions of jobs.
I don't really see why Britain wouldn't get free trade agreements with the EU anyways, seeing as they already follow all of the regulations. (I assume.) I mean Canada is getting one and we're no where near the EU.
There's also, you know, freedom.
Because the last thing Europe wants is for us to leave, why would they give us the same as we have now? We would also be the first country to choose to leave and the if we did well out of it it could lead to a mass exodus.
Actually KK, the European human rights legislation exists outside of the EU framework. As in, countries which are not part of the EU obey that charter. Even if the UK left the EU, it would still be subject to rulings from the European Court of Human Rights.
This is the sort of misinformation which seems to be fairly common in the UK. I blame the UK press for not making the distinctions clear enough.
Are you talking about the Human Rights Court that is affiliated with the UN? Cause I don't really see Saudi Arabia complying with EU human rights mandates.
If that's such a big stumbling block for the UK, would pushing for an exception for the UK on those issues not be more sensible than wholesale EU exit?
(Not that I can see what's wrong with Human Rights legislation, though)
Da Boss wrote:Actually KK, the European human rights legislation exists outside of the EU framework. As in, countries which are not part of the EU obey that charter. Even if the UK left the EU, it would still be subject to rulings from the European Court of Human Rights.
This is the sort of misinformation which seems to be fairly common in the UK. I blame the UK press for not making the distinctions clear enough.
Some actually want out of the ECHR, UKIP would withdraw, but then they would also repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 so obviously don't think people should have basic human rights. The press have made human rights a dirty word by highlighting when it helps less desirable people, but really that should be the point, you don't lose your basic human rights because you are undesirable.
Ratbarf wrote:Are you talking about the Human Rights Court that is affiliated with the UN? Cause I don't really see Saudi Arabia complying with EU human rights mandates.
The ECHR is Council of Europe rather than UN, so only covers Europe.
Ratbarf wrote: Then what about Russia? Isn't it part of Europe?
It is, and is subject to the ECHR.
Map of those subject to the ECHR
Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a european mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/25 23:11:19
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a european mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
It's not part of the EU.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/25 23:15:00
Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a european mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
Eastern Europe, yes. But Western Europe has something of a superiority complex...probably not a bad thing given how bloody useless the southern Europeans are
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a European mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
Eastern Europe, yes. But Western Europe has something of a superiority complex...probably not a bad thing given how bloody useless the southern Europeans are
A good portion of eastern Europe was part of the U.S.S.R til recently and are also Slavic in origin, often using the Cyrillic alphabet. whereas western Europe doesn't and never was part of them. So they share a heritage in a similar way that western Europe does. (A few Russian leaders were in fact Ukrainian etc ) Whereas ours (the British)were french(Norman), Scottish and are currently German.
this makes sense right?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 00:27:59
Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a European mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
Eastern Europe, yes. But Western Europe has something of a superiority complex...probably not a bad thing given how bloody useless the southern Europeans are
A good portion of eastern Europe was part of the U.S.S.R til recently and are also Slavic in origin, often using the Cyrillic alphabet. whereas western Europe doesn't and never was part of them. So they share a heritage in a similar way that western Europe does. (A few Russian leaders were in fact Ukrainian etc ) Whereas ours (the British)were french(Norman), Scottish and are currently German.
this makes sense right?
Wasn't there some family tie between the Tsars and our Royals?
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Funny how Russia is 3 times the size of the rest of Europe... To a European mind, is it actually part of Europe, tho? I always had the impression it wasn't, in a similar fashion as Turkey?
Eastern Europe, yes. But Western Europe has something of a superiority complex...probably not a bad thing given how bloody useless the southern Europeans are
A good portion of eastern Europe was part of the U.S.S.R til recently and are also Slavic in origin, often using the Cyrillic alphabet. whereas western Europe doesn't and never was part of them. So they share a heritage in a similar way that western Europe does. (A few Russian leaders were in fact Ukrainian etc ) Whereas ours (the British)were french(Norman), Scottish and are currently German.
this makes sense right?
Wasn't there some family tie between the Tsars and our Royals?
I believe one of Queen Victoria's grandchildren was married to the final Russian Tsar (Who's name escapes me.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 01:00:50
The Right doesn't like the EU telling them what to do (or at least giving hints like, "help now or we won't give a damn when you fail later"), its a superiority complex thing. So in the UK right now its the case that you have the Tory back benches demanding the the PM tell the EU to stuff themselves, whilst the center and leftist parties argue that'd it be a stupid idea. People are complaining about a few issues that have resulted from being part of the EU, but they aren't looking at the bigger picture. If the UK left then it'd say to other countries that they could just do the same when they found that things weren't going there way. Either that or we'd become a bit of a pariah (youknow, after having said to our trading partners that they're making bad decisions) and have to stick with that for years, or go grovelling back to them when the economic crisis is over (which in both cases would lower European opinions of us).
Its rabble rousing from the conservatives. If it ever happened I doubt that they'd make it in for another term and Britain would wind up worse off in the long run. =P
what's slightly freaky is after over four hundred years of being a powerful union we may well completely crumble in four, should we split from the e.u and Scotland split from us. (I doubt this will happen but it's still an odd thought.)
People have a crisis and then think to themselves that they'd be better off on their own. Its the case that conservatism reigns in times of crisis, so everyone and their grandmother is holding up the middle finger to their trading partners and saying that they're a drain on their economies, etc. I'd say the Germans have more legitimate reasons for leaving the EU than Britian does, we're just winging because things aren't going the way the government wants them to. Well shucks Mr Cameron, it is going badly for everyone dear...
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