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Thought about this yesterday, When writing a army list for a tourny, you put down Power Weapon as a upgrade, now in the BRB it tells you to look at the weapon on the model to see what it is then use the correct rules.

Would it be ok to use what model you wanted based on the mission opponent?, i.e if I had a assault marine sarg with Power weapon and facing termies, as I have paid for a power weapon would it be acceptable to use a model with Power Axe? Facing marines use a model with sword, facing Guard use a model with Maul/staff?

It probably is more of a question for tournies, but putting down Power Weapon as the upgrade on the army list would be fine wouldnt it?

How would you feel if someone did this to you?

Tournies at the local store require a army list and the upgrades for units. Even if its a free upgrade you have to have it predetermined what a model is carrying, if its not listed then its wysiwyg.

MarkyMark wrote:
Thought about this yesterday, When writing a army list for a tourny, you put down Power Weapon as a upgrade, now in the BRB it tells you to look at the weapon on the model to see what it is then use the correct rules.

If I were the TO, I would be telling you that your list is incomplete.

'Power Weapon' is a class of weapon. Your list still needs to say which weapon the model actually has.

Really, even though the armoury list is power weapon, so that is the upgrade you have paid the points for?,

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, even though the armoury list is power weapon, so that is the upgrade you have paid the points for?,

It stops list tailoring just prior to the game being played and ensures that you have the same list for each game. Basically it stops you from taking all Power Mauls against mostly 4+ armor save or worse lists and all Power Axes against a mostly TEQ list.

I would necessarily say the list is incomplete without specifically listing the power weapons. But with what the OP is suggesting it is probably going to have to happen.

You're describing list tailoring with a side board. Most tournaments specifically do NOT allow such a thing.

So is it the same thing with Psyhic powers? codex ones that is as you can choose, I have only run BRB ones

Have seen side board mentioned before, assuming that means having more models then what is in your list?


So it would be frowned upon, thats all I needed to know, thanks guys, I have mainly taken power swords in the past as facing marine sargs with fists or axes usually kill them before they swing but against 2plus armour the weapon would be wasted, suppose I'll have to live with that or use a power axe with shield model.

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, even though the armoury list is power weapon, so that is the upgrade you have paid the points for?,

You have paid the points for a power weapon, from which you select a specific weapon which is represented on the model.

The fact that the Option lists the category instead of the specific weapon doesn't change the fact that you equip the model with a specific weapon. It just saves them from adding each individual weapon to the options list.

Just writing 'power weapon' on the army list is no more legal than just writing 'heavy weapon' for your devastators. Or just writing 'Options' and a points total.

 insaniak wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, even though the armoury list is power weapon, so that is the upgrade you have paid the points for?,

You have paid the points for a power weapon, from which you select a specific weapon which is represented on the model.

The fact that the Option lists the category instead of the specific weapon doesn't change the fact that you equip the model with a specific weapon. It just saves them from adding each individual weapon to the options list.

Just writing 'power weapon' on the army list is no more legal than just writing 'heavy weapon' for your devastators. Or just writing 'Options' and a points total.

But heavy weapon are different prices plus in the options list there is no upgrade for heavy weapon, is there a option for power weapon (faq'd from sword to weapon). Writing heavy weapon would not adhere to the options so not a very good comparsion, just saying.

But what if you are trying to represent the Buffet Kings chapter of Marines?

MarkyMark wrote:

But heavy weapon are different prices plus in the options list there is no upgrade for heavy weapon, is there a option for power weapon (faq'd from sword to weapon). Writing heavy weapon would not adhere to the options so not a very good comparsion, just saying.

By your logic, you'd be fine with someone's Tactical Squad listing multimelta, heavy bolter, or missile launcher, then picking whichever before the game starts? They're the same cost, and the same option.

MarkyMark wrote:
But heavy weapon are different prices plus in the options list there is no upgrade for heavy weapon, is there a option for power weapon (faq'd from sword to weapon). Writing heavy weapon would not adhere to the options so not a very good comparsion, just saying.

It's no different. All of the heavy weapons in the unit's options are heavy weapons. All of the power weapons in a unit's options are power weapons. The only difference is that GW decided to lump all of the power weapons together rather than writing them all out.

You still need to select an actual weapon.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

But heavy weapon are different prices plus in the options list there is no upgrade for heavy weapon, is there a option for power weapon (faq'd from sword to weapon). Writing heavy weapon would not adhere to the options so not a very good comparsion, just saying.

By your logic, you'd be fine with someone's Tactical Squad listing multimelta, heavy bolter, or missile launcher, then picking whichever before the game starts? They're the same cost, and the same option.

So troop choice, if you have 10 you can replace one bolter with heavy bolter MM or ML.

Sarg Choice, you can replace boltgun/BP with a power weapon.

The only defination of a power weapon is what the model has been modeled with. The other options are clearly spelled out

Besides, the only way a power weapon works is looking at the model. For you to have different effects, your model would need to change. If you change models between games you are breaking almost all tourney's rules.

If you use the same model, your option won't be able to change.

This was the first way people attempted to cheat when 6th edition started and every Tourney I have seen has explicitly mentioned this by forcing you to write your option and using the same weapon all tourney.

In the 5 tournies I have been to not been mentioned once that you have to state what power weapon you are using, nor that you have to use exactly the same model for each game, I broke a model at the tourny before last so had to borrow one, my bad I cheated.

Like I said I was just asking the question, there is nothing in the BRB to stop it nor in any rules pack I have seen including the UK GT rules,

MarkyMark wrote:
In the 5 tournies I have been to not been mentioned once that you have to state what power weapon you are using, nor that you have to use exactly the same model for each game, I broke a model at the tourny before last so had to borrow one, my bad I cheated.

Like I said I was just asking the question, there is nothing in the BRB to stop it nor in any rules pack I have seen including the UK GT rules,

BRB has nothing in regards to tourneys or competitive play period. So claiming it is LEGAL in the rulebook, please cite the page for multi-game competitive play and changing lists between games. maybe next you will argue you can change your model mid-game and change options "because it doesn't say I can't!"

If you changed your power weapon when you borrowed one and played it as a different option, yes, you cheated. And if your 5 tourneys didn't 'mention' it then they are probably poorly run... go ahead and attempt to do it and see how quickly a new rule pops up.

No I broke a normal marine, still I was not using the exact same model as that was the requirement you said before was it not?.

I think heels have been dug in at this point, gentlemen.

No, just a model with the same wargear is what is meant by using the same models all tournament.

And it is not a BRB rule, but it is a tournament rule in some tournaments.

Any tournament that does let people switch out is a crazy tournament, and I would wonder what other crazy rules they had in place.

MarkyMark wrote:
No I broke a normal marine, still I was not using the exact same model as that was the requirement you said before was it not?.

If your changing the model impacted gameplay it would be. Gameplay being weapon options, base sizes, LOS, weapon mounts and so on.

An example would someone using a large battlewagon one game and a smaller battlewagon another game. Same rules, but being different models and different sizes impacts gameplay. One game he wants to extend KFF, next game he wants to hide LOS.

What about a vehicle where the weapon mounts changed location between games to maximize targets?

What if I used 25mm bases when I wanted to deepstrike and 40mm next game when I wanted to deploy?

You are purposely being dense. If you wrote "power weapon" then used a sword game 1 and an axe game 2, you may get away with it as game 2 person doesn't know what you used game 1. And people are trusting and are not looking for cheating.

It doesn't make you not a boldface cheat if you do it, even if you weasel your words to say "they didn't say I can't!"

They also say I can't smash your models with my shoe and declare instant victory. Trying to say somehow generic power weapon means you don't have to specify on your list and get to change every game is dishonest and no one can accept that the rules in a system not designed for and not advocating competitive play somehow that is fair or should work that way.

Thats MFA though, totally different imo.

I didnt relise it would thought of as being cheating though, sorry for that.

Rest assured I wont do it then, just means I'll have to model up some more units, few with SS PA combos/

Nvm.

Good post, nk.

 insaniak wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Really, even though the armoury list is power weapon, so that is the upgrade you have paid the points for?,

You have paid the points for a power weapon, from which you select a specific weapon which is represented on the model.

The fact that the Option lists the category instead of the specific weapon doesn't change the fact that you equip the model with a specific weapon. It just saves them from adding each individual weapon to the options list.

Just writing 'power weapon' on the army list is no more legal than just writing 'heavy weapon' for your devastators. Or just writing 'Options' and a points total.

I have to disagree with that interpretation of power weapon. Power weapons is the only option you need to list at your list. By the BRB a power weapon is whatever your model is holding. If saving space was the intent then why are the combi weapons detailed? (at least in the CSM), the options is

combi,-plasma,-flamer,-melta.... X points, wouldn't be that hard to do power,-sword,-axe,-maul,-lance.... X points in the same fashion.

I'm not a supporter of changing your models mid-tournament but as far as the rules for making a list goes you only need to put power weapon, then by the rules check the model and see which type of power weapon is it.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
By the BRB a power weapon is whatever your model is holding.

That's one of the most taken-out-of-context rules in 6th edition so far.

'Power Weapon' is a class of weapon, that includes a number of different weapons including power swords, power axes, etc, that each have their own rules. When you select a power weapon, you select one of those weapons. The rulebook telling you to look at the model to determine which weapon it is is just a restatement of WYSIWYG. It's just there to stop you from taking, say, a model with a power sword and claiming that it is a power axe.

Edit: never mind, should check the faq before posting : P

It’s just like combi-weapons. A combi-melta or combi-flamer are usually the same cost, but they’re still two different weapons, and you have to pick one in your list and model it appropriately. Same deal for PW. Some codices/unit entries have just listed "combi-weapon" as a model option, then stated in the wargear section that this means a combi-flamer, -melta, or -plasma.

Similarly, some psykers select two psychic powers without paying specific point costs for them (like Space Marine Librarians). You still have to pick two powers in your army list, even though there’s no cost difference.