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2012/11/27 00:29:09
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Sinister Chaos Marine
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Hey, so I finally got round to assembling the helbrute from my DV box and noticed something.
It's power fist may be incorporated with a combi bolter or heavy flamer.
It's power fist is helpfully pointing 90+ degrees away from where his multi-melta is pointing.
Does this mean he can't ever fire both weapons at the same target?
Is the power fist arm treated like say a turret and thus enjoy a wider firing arc?
Or does one have to stick the weapon on the power fist so it points in a sympathetic direction to the multi-melta and look stupid.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 14:43:10
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2012/11/27 00:35:25
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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By normal assembly you can not shoot both weapons at the same target as they face different directions.
I would house rule it for friendly games, and ask the TO in any tournaments.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/11/27 00:36:10
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Your helbrute from the DV box does not come with those weapons, so there's actually no problem here.
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2012/11/27 00:45:59
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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You could just model it like a fw dread with the weapon on the main body. That wouldn't be too wild.
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2012/11/27 00:49:40
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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 DeathReaper wrote:By normal assembly you can not shoot both weapons at the same target as they face different directions.
I would house rule it for friendly games, and ask the TO in any tournaments.
This.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 01:03:17
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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The model is in a heroic pose, saying that it can't move its arms is because of this heroic pose is like saying the dv liby can't shoot in a direction because it's arm is facing forward, consider it an abstraction and use the standard dread as a guide on where it can aim
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2012/11/27 01:15:37
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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It's actually different considering Infantry trace LoS differently from vehicles, but don't let the rules get in the way or anything.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 01:25:03
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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rigeld2 wrote:It's actually different considering Infantry trace LoS differently from vehicles, but don't let the rules get in the way or anything.
Vehicle Weapons and LOS second paragraph, First sentence.
Assume weapons can freely swivel.
The hellbrute has about 3-4 points where it could articulate.
OP: Ignore the illustrations and read the rules; 45* is not the Be all-end all for all weapon mountings, they swivel where they look like they should be able to(or where they actually can)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2012/11/27 01:27:01
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 01:51:31
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
People made similar judgements about the heldrake being unable to move its neck. So your 45 degree arc is a bit limited.
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2012/11/27 01:54:13
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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Kevlar wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
People made similar judgements about the heldrake being unable to move its neck. So your 45 degree arc is a bit limited.
And, as I believe I said in the latest Heldrake thread, RAW it's 45 but in a friendly game I'd give more than that.
Just like I said above.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 02:46:21
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle
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Wait I thought walkers acted as infantry and held a 360 degree arc
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2012/11/27 02:47:17
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Nevie wrote:Wait I thought walkers acted as infantry and held a 360 degree arc
Walkers are vehicles. P.84 has a section detailing how they shoot.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/11/27 02:57:14
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Arms would normally be able to turn through an arc. Similar to sponsons, really. You can only declare a target that's within the 45" arc of either gun, but once you declare a target the walker pivots toward it, and fires all weapons which can come to bear.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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Maelstrom's Edge! |
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2012/11/27 03:30:50
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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I agree that makes sense, but I don't see where that's in the rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 14:17:42
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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rigeld2 wrote:The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
Yeah, see; you need to read the rule, it is the weapon Mounting that gets swiveled, not the barrels.
Their is exactly permission to shoot at where the hand could point.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2012/11/27 14:36:37
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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The Hive Mind
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 Kommissar Kel wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
Yeah, see; you need to read the rule, it is the weapon Mounting that gets swiveled, not the barrels.
Their is exactly permission to shoot at where the hand could point.
BRB page 72 wrote:In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.
The gun swivels on the mounting - the mounting does not swivel. Pot, kettle? The condescending tone is working for you though - keep at it.
There's no permission to move the arm - only permission to move the gun.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2012/11/27 16:24:03
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Kommissar Kel wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The weapon mounted in the hand? Yes, I assume that weapon can swivel.
Find permission to swivel the arm - that's not the Flamer or bolter, but the arm.
Yeah, see; you need to read the rule, it is the weapon Mounting that gets swiveled, not the barrels.
Their is exactly permission to shoot at where the hand could point.
Right, but only within its 45 degree arc.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/11/27 22:09:33
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Have to love dynamic poses on models with limited arcs of fire. What was GW thinking?
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2012/11/27 22:39:12
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kevlar wrote:Have to love dynamic poses on models with limited arcs of fire. What was GW thinking?
They weren't thinking anything, the dark vengeance helbrute does not come with any other weapons other than the powerfist and melta. The DV helbrute is not the final model and it was intended for use only with dark vengeance boxset rules and/or the loadout it comes with.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 22:45:19
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2012/11/29 18:16:39
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Some of you rule lawyers really suck the fun out of this game. How is it that an arm cannot move to point a weapon? The model has an arm mounted weapon; the arm appears to be able to aim that weapon along the same general aiming arc most arms tend to enjoy. Ergo: a weapon mounted on that arm may be aimed at targets within the general arc that the arm appears to be able to cover (assumed to be a 45 degree arc aligned with the front facing of the model).
I swear you Nay-Sayers are the bane of the hobby.
SJ
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“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
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2012/11/29 18:29:00
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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 jeffersonian000 wrote:Some of you rule lawyers really suck the fun out of this game. How is it that an arm cannot move to point a weapon?
Because the permissive ruleset tells us what we can do, the arm is not able to move to point, because the rules do not tell us we can move the arm.
jeffersonian000 wrote:The model has an arm mounted weapon; the arm appears to be able to aim that weapon along the same general aiming arc most arms tend to enjoy. Ergo: a weapon mounted on that arm may be aimed at targets within the general arc that the arm appears to be able to cover (assumed to be a 45 degree arc aligned with the front facing of the model).
I swear you Nay-Sayers are the bane of the hobby.
SJ
The underlined is HIWPI, but it is not actually the RAW. again because of the permissive ruleset.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2012/11/29 18:33:59
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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jeffersonian000 wrote:Some of you rule lawyers really suck the fun out of this game. How is it that an arm cannot move to point a weapon? The model has an arm mounted weapon; the arm appears to be able to aim that weapon along the same general aiming arc most arms tend to enjoy. Ergo: a weapon mounted on that arm may be aimed at targets within the general arc that the arm appears to be able to cover (assumed to be a 45 degree arc aligned with the front facing of the model).
I swear you Nay-Sayers are the bane of the hobby.
SJ
Please read YMDC tenet #4: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253853.page and note the the default position in this forum is to argue RAW, not "how it should be played". The former can be argued, the latter is just personal preference.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/11/29 20:06:14
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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jeffersonian000 wrote:Some of you rule lawyers really suck the fun out of this game. How is it that an arm cannot move to point a weapon? The model has an arm mounted weapon; the arm appears to be able to aim that weapon along the same general aiming arc most arms tend to enjoy. Ergo: a weapon mounted on that arm may be aimed at targets within the general arc that the arm appears to be able to cover (assumed to be a 45 degree arc aligned with the front facing of the model).
I swear you Nay-Sayers are the bane of the hobby.
Yes, by all means fling vitriol at the people pointing out why a current model doesn't fit the rules it's written for, rather than blaming the company who thinks that their game doesn't have to have a tight ruleset because they are a 'model company' first...
This isn't a problem of 'rules lawyers' sucking the fun out of the game. It's just a poorly designed model that can't do what it should have been designed to do. Certainly not the first time GW have released a model that doesn't actually fit their own rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/29 20:08:12
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2012/11/29 20:11:17
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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 insaniak wrote: jeffersonian000 wrote:Some of you rule lawyers really suck the fun out of this game. How is it that an arm cannot move to point a weapon? The model has an arm mounted weapon; the arm appears to be able to aim that weapon along the same general aiming arc most arms tend to enjoy. Ergo: a weapon mounted on that arm may be aimed at targets within the general arc that the arm appears to be able to cover (assumed to be a 45 degree arc aligned with the front facing of the model).
I swear you Nay-Sayers are the bane of the hobby.
Yes, by all means fling vitriol at the people pointing out why a current model doesn't fit the rules it's written for, rather than blaming the company who thinks that their rules system doesn't have to have a tight ruleset because they are a 'model company' first...
This isn't a problem of 'rules lawyers' sucking the fun out of the game. It's just a poorly designed model that can't do what it should have been designed to do. Certainly not the first time GW have released a model that doesn't actually fit their own rules.
Not to sound like a broken record, but the model fits "exactly" what it was intended for. A power fist, and a melta. It was designed for the dark vengeance rules, originally.
A "helbrute" model is not even available on the website at this moment.
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2012/11/29 20:43:07
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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The arguement that the hellbrute model was only ever intended for the DV set fails when you open up the 6th edition csm codex and find several painted DV hellbrutes within its pages. :/
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2012/11/29 20:47:02
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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 BarBoBot wrote:The arguement that the hellbrute model was only ever intended for the DV set fails when you open up the 6th edition csm codex and find several painted DV hellbrutes within its pages. :/
Yep, and they are all modeled with a multi-melta and power fist.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2012/11/29 20:50:45
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
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BarBoBot wrote:The arguement that the hellbrute model was only ever intended for the DV set fails when you open up the 6th edition csm codex and find several painted DV hellbrutes within its pages. :/
Fails at what? It's a hellbrute. It's got a multi melta. What exactly is your problem with it?
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2012/11/29 20:53:41
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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BarBoBot wrote:The arguement that the hellbrute model was only ever intended for the DV set fails when you open up the 6th edition csm codex and find several painted DV hellbrutes within its pages. :/
That doesn't mean anything, it was the only model available when the codex was in production.
The necron codex doesn't even have models for some guys and a few don't even have a fluff picture.
Honestly, using the helbrute from dark vengeance is no different than using terminators from AoBR box set and complaining they didn't all come with missile launchers or whatever.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/29 20:55:04
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2012/11/29 21:08:51
Subject: Helbrute firing arc model fail
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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 Portugal Jones wrote: BarBoBot wrote:The arguement that the hellbrute model was only ever intended for the DV set fails when you open up the 6th edition csm codex and find several painted DV hellbrutes within its pages. :/
Fails at what? It's a hellbrute. It's got a multi melta. What exactly is your problem with it?
I have no issue with the hellbrute... I'm not sure how you got that from what I said....
Kevin said the DV helbrute is only intended for use in a DV scenario, not intended for use as a CSM hellbrute model. I disagree with that completely.
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