Helbrute firing arc model fail

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Crablezworth**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
I would like to note that just because a point is repeated in a forum, it does not mean that the point is correct. The hang up of the hardliners is the rule defining firing arcs for weapons mounted on a walker. The folks pointing out the rules supporting the arm assembly moving are being ignored because it goes against the hardliners "position" (pun intended).

In the end, a storm bolter mounted to a dreadnought power fist has been given permission to be used by GW. It is only the hardliners on this forum that state differently. I guess it is up to you, the players seeking wisdom on this issue, to make their own call. The hardliners are being too stuck in their interpretation of the rules to admit they have tunnel vision on this issue.

The vehicle rules as written give us permission to assume a vehicle's weapons are capable of being aimed within the boundaries of the way the weapon is modeled. If you mount a storm bolter to the power fist of the Helbrute, the rules as written do support the arm moving to allow aiming of the weapon. Just because the hardliners are ignoring this fact doesn't mean the rules to support it are missing.

To the OP and anyone else reading this thread, please remember that GW has given you permission to use the options available to each unit in your army. The rules to use those options are guidelines to assist with understanding how to use those options in a game. GW has given specific permission to assume a model can move to achieve its designed goals, within the limits of what the model appears to able to accomplish. In the case of the Helbrute, it is within reason to assume the arm can be pointed forward to cover a 45 degree firing arc, thus allowing the storm bolter mounted to the power fist to be aligned to its target. This assumption is fully support in the vehicle rules (walkers are vehicles, after all).

I've said my peace. The hardliners are wrong in their assumption that the rules as written should be used to limit your options rather than expand upon them. Good luck with the thread. I'm out.

SJ

Just calling people discussing RAW hardliners a bunch of times isn't debating the rules.. Poeple have told you, several times that this is a place for debating the rules as they are written. It has zero bearing on how reasonable or unreasonable anyone here is in an actual game. Wit that said, RAW the model it cant really shoot due to the model being badly designed. It's perfectly possible that in some incarnation of the chaos codex the helbrute and chaos dread were two different things and the helbrute may have justs been a monstrous creature at the time the mode was designed, however, now that it is a vehicle, it has very specific rules about fire arcs. If you want to convert an old chaos dread as a helbrute so that there are no rules issues to contend with, more power to you.

RAW it's screwed, if I were playing you I would suggest we pretend its mounted facing forward, I wouldn't really care BUT if you started pretending the arm could orient itself in any direction because... magic, we'd have a problem.

**insaniak**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
The folks pointing out the rules supporting the arm assembly moving are being ignored because it goes against the hardliners "position" (pun intended).

It's not being ignored because it goes against the argument. It's being ignored because it's a backwards way of looking at the rules.

The general rules for vehicles tell us to look at how the weapon mount moves to determine the fire arc of the weapon.
Walkers have their own rules for determining the fire arc of their weapons: They have a 45 degree fire arc.

The more specific rule takes precedence. So walker weapons have a 45 degree fire arc, regardless of how far the mounting looks like it can move.

In the end, a storm bolter mounted to a dreadnought power fist has been given permission to be used by GW. It is only the hardliners on this forum that state differently.

Nobody in this thread has said that a weapon mounted on the power fist can not be used.

The issue is simply that if you are using the Hellbrute model, a weapon mounted on the power fist is not going to be able to fire at the same target as the melta arm. Not because people are being 'hardliners' but simply because that's the way the rules currently work.

The vehicle rules as written give us permission to assume a vehicle's weapons are capable of being aimed within the boundaries of the way the weapon is modeled. If you mount a storm bolter to the power fist of the Helbrute, the rules as written do support the arm moving to allow aiming of the weapon. Just because the hardliners are ignoring this fact doesn't mean the rules to support it are missing.

Then what, exactly, do you think the point is of the rules telling us that walker weapons have a 45 degree arc?

**Savageconvoy**

But wouldn't using a Chaos dread with a power fist and combi-bolter/heavy flamer facing forward be modeling for advantage then, since the actual model is clearly aiming in a separate direction?

**rigeld2**

Savageconvoy wrote:
But wouldn't using a Chaos dread with a power fist and combi-bolter/heavy flamer facing forward be modeling for advantage then, since the actual model is clearly aiming in a separate direction?

Since MFA is a player convention and not a rules requirement, and since the DV Brute doesn't even have a combi/flamer to begin with, and since you're well into HYWPI instead of RAW...

No, it wouldn't be.

**Savageconvoy**

I've seen plenty of models not come with the equipment they are allowed to take. GW has always encouraged making conversions and modeling equipment. I'm not sure why people keep mentioning that.

The official model made by GW can take a power fist with a combi-bolter or heavy flamer. The official model's firing arc prevents the weapon from targeting the same unit as the weapon on the other arm. Making a model that would allow it to hit one unit with both weapons goes against what the rules limit the official model to. MFA.

**rigeld2**

Savageconvoy wrote:
I've seen plenty of models not come with the equipment they are allowed to take. GW has always encouraged making conversions and modeling equipment. I'm not sure why people keep mentioning that.

The official model made by GW can take a power fist with a combi-bolter or heavy flamer. The official model's firing arc prevents the weapon from targeting the same unit as the weapon on the other arm. Making a model that would allow it to hit one unit with both weapons goes against what the rules limit the official model to. MFA.

Throw out all your Chaos Dreadnaughts then. They don't exist anymore.

**Savageconvoy**

Jokes on you. I never had any to begin with.

**nosferatu1001**

Savageconvoy wrote:
I've seen plenty of models not come with the equipment they are allowed to take. GW has always encouraged making conversions and modeling equipment. I'm not sure why people keep mentioning that.

The official model made by GW can take a power fist with a combi-bolter or heavy flamer. The official model's firing arc prevents the weapon from targeting the same unit as the weapon on the other arm. Making a model that would allow it to hit one unit with both weapons goes against what the rules limit the official model to. MFA.

Nope, the official model doesnt have those weapons, so you have no clue how that model should have them mounted.

**Savageconvoy**

My Tau Devilfish has no SMS, yet clearly I can place them on the model.

CSM come with no heavy weapons, but can clearly take them.

And I know exactly where to mount the heavy flamer. It's mounted onto the power fist, just like its described.

**nosferatu1001**

Do you mount the gun pointing "down" the powerfist, or perpendicular to it? You have no model to dictate this, so you have no reason to call "MFA" based on that alone

**Savageconvoy**

You're trying to equate converting a model to include a weapon option it doesn't come with to putting two sponson mounted weapons on the same side to get a shooting benefit.

**rigeld2**

Regardless - at this point you're trying to argue MFA which is 100% a player convention. Since allowing a conversion would also be up to your opponent, talk to your opponent first. RAW, the arm doesn't move.

**nosferatu1001**

Erm, not at all. As I pointed out, twice now, you dont actually *know* how a hellbrute stock model (DV) should have a flamer mounted, because the model doesnt come with one.

We know how non-hellbrute models have them mounted, but that isnt the same thing.

My point, which you are missing, is you are crying "MFA" based on no firm basis.

**ShadowMageAlpha**

I hate to really ask these questions, but...

Firstly: Suppose I were to take a Hellbrute model and fix it up so that the joints were fully articulate and able to move (within reason.) Would this be able to shoot at anything that the army could be pointed at plus or minus the 45 degree swivel for walker weapons?
If so, would this also allow any out-of-the-box Hellbrute to shoot in the same fashion as it would be analogous to turning a glued-down turret or pintle or what have you.
If not, please explain.

Secondly: How would an ork player go about building a model for which there is no precedent (such as a Mekboy Junka which I believe has no official model) be able to make a model which would be legal and agreeable to most people(i.e. Not have claims of modeling for advantage thrown at it)?

**Savageconvoy**

So we have no idea on how to mount something to a power fist, even though there are countless examples of arm mounted weapons. Again, plenty of models don't get shown with all their options. But that's not what I'm arguing.

RAW the arm doesn't move and the arm is facing the wrong direction. I agree with that. But if you're doing something to get around rules... Then how is that not MFA?

Even if it is a player convention. I happen to be a player, so I guess I'm right then.

**rigeld2**

ShadowMageAlpha wrote:
Firstly: Suppose I were to take a Hellbrute model and fix it up so that the joints were fully articulate and able to move (within reason.) Would this be able to shoot at anything that the army could be pointed at plus or minus the 45 degree swivel for walker weapons?

No - you have no permission to move the arm during the game.

If so, would this also allow any out-of-the-box Hellbrute to shoot in the same fashion as it would be analogous to turning a glued-down turret or pintle or what have you.
If not, please explain.

No, it wouldn't be analogous. You took a design (what you're actually supposed to base a glued down turret on) and modified it - meaning it's no longer as designed.

Secondly: How would an ork player go about building a model for which there is no precedent (such as a Mekboy Junka which I believe has no official model) be able to make a model which would be legal and agreeable to most people(i.e. Not have claims of modeling for advantage thrown at it)?

I'm not familiar with that model at all, so I'll use the Tyranid codex as an example.
Tervigons, before the most recent release, didn't have models. Since the profile is 6T 6W and a 3+ save which is identical to a Trygon, everyone assumed a large 120mm oval base. Most people started with a Carnifex and then bulked it up (trying to use the official artwork for scale).
Mycetic Spores still don't have models. Something with approximately the size and shape of a Drop Pod would be fine 99% of the time.
Doom of Malantai - a Zoanthrope on steroids.
Parasite of Mortrex - Shrike with the appropriate biomorphs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Savageconvoy wrote:
RAW the arm doesn't move and the arm is facing the wrong direction. I agree with that. But if you're doing something to get around rules... Then how is that not MFA?

This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Even if it is a player convention. I happen to be a player, so I guess I'm right then.

You're right that it could be considered MFA? Yes, absolutely. Literally every conversion used anywhere could be considered MFA.
That doesn't mean a reasonable person would think so, however.

**nosferatu1001**

Savageconvoy wrote:
So we have no idea on how to mount something to a power fist, even though there are countless examples of arm mounted weapons. Again, plenty of models don't get shown with all their options. But that's not what I'm arguing.

RAW the arm doesn't move and the arm is facing the wrong direction. I agree with that. But if you're doing something to get around rules... Then how is that not MFA?

Even if it is a player convention. I happen to be a player, so I guess I'm right then.

No, you have no specific idea of the only way it can be mounted, which is what youre arguing. Just because other, non-hellbrute models have guns mounted in X way does not mean that all guns must be mounted in X way without exception. You are making a bad logical leap there

**insaniak**

rigeld2 wrote:
This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Why does coming in the DV box make it not an official Hellbrute model?

**BarBoBot**

insaniak wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Why does coming in the DV box make it not an official Hellbrute model?

Thank you! This has been tossed around several times and it's completely absurd... How can anyone say that a model released by GW and featured in the codex pictures isn't an official model???

**rigeld2**

insaniak wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Why does coming in the DV box make it not an official Hellbrute model?

It's an official Hellbrute model. It is not *the* official one.

Which really has no bearing on anything else in the thread.

**SoloFalcon1138**

How do we know that the helbrute model doesn't havr a weapon in the power fist? Maybe that's what the gaping maw in its hand is?

**insaniak**

rigeld2 wrote:
It's an official Hellbrute model. It is not *the* official one.

There is only one 'official' Hellbrute model. That by definition makes it 'the' official model.

**SoloFalcon1138**

insaniak wrote:
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Anyways, simple solution: nomjnate a place on the base as the front of the model. Then, the firing arcs wold be based 90° off to the right and left of that point.

Where are you getting 90 degrees from?

If the head is facing forward at 12 o'clock, then the positions of the arms would be based from 3 and 9 o'clock.

**insaniak**

Ah, I think I see what you're getting at. Wouldn't it be simpler to just assume that the weapons' fire arcs are determined from the shoulder directly forwards?

**Kevin949**

insaniak wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Why does coming in the DV box make it not an official Hellbrute model?

So I can use the tyranids from Space Hulk then and call them "official"? Until the model is released and sold on the GW website in the army section it belongs to it is no more official than forgeworld models.

It's simply an official GW model, but it is not the model that they will release for the army (nor was it ever, as it came out before the codex). The dark vengeance box set was, for all intents and purposes, its own game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
insaniak wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
This isn't the official Hellbrute model. It's the DV Hellbrute model - meaning it's *A* Hellbrute model with a specific pose.

Why does coming in the DV box make it not an official Hellbrute model?

It's an official Hellbrute model. It is not *the* official one.

Which really has no bearing on anything else in the thread.

This is somewhat true, except the thread is revolved around using this model in a 40k game with equipment it was never meant to come with on the model and arguing about it being modeled improperly when it's really being used improperly. *Shrug*

**insaniak**

Kevin949 wrote:
So I can use the tyranids from Space Hulk then and call them "official"?

Is Space Hulk sold as a part of the Warhammer 40000 game?

Until the model is released and sold on the GW website in the army section it belongs to it is no more official than forgeworld models.

Sorry, what? I think you're missing a few words there somewhere.

It's simply an official GW model, but it is not the model that they will release for the army (nor was it ever, as it came out before the codex).

The old Ork Trukk was released for Gorkamorka well before it was included in the 3rd edition Ork Codex. It was still the 'official' trukk for quite a few years.

The dark vengeance box set was, for all intents and purposes, its own game.

Based on what?

**Kevin949**

insaniak wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
So I can use the tyranids from Space Hulk then and call them "official"?

Is Space Hulk sold as a part of the Warhammer 40000 game?

Until the model is released and sold on the GW website in the army section it belongs to it is no more official than forgeworld models.

Sorry, what? I think you're missing a few words there somewhere.

It's simply an official GW model, but it is not the model that they will release for the army (nor was it ever, as it came out before the codex).

The old Ork Trukk was released for Gorkamorka well before it was included in the 3rd edition Ork Codex. It was still the 'official' trukk for quite a few years.

The dark vengeance box set was, for all intents and purposes, its own game.

Based on what?

Well, space hulk wasn't a great example but the mini's "could" still be used for 40k as they are as official as the ones from dark vengeance.

No, I'm not missing any words in there. I just can't think of a better way to put it.

Well, good for the ork trukk. I highly doubt GW is going to force players to buy a 100 dollar box set to get one miniature. Also orks are notorious for making up their own shiz.

Based on the fact it comes with it's own rules and such. Yes, you can use them in normal 40k but they are by no means the normal models (as I've yet to see official production run models be "snap fit" models).

Unfortunately GW is trying to do with privateer press does with it's two player box sets but because 40k is a much more malleable system as far as models are concerned, you run into these kinds of issues.

**Savageconvoy**

That's odd. My CSM codex has pictures of the hellbrute from DV but they labeled it just as a Helbrute. Must be a typo.

**insaniak**

Kevin949 wrote:
Well, space hulk wasn't a great example but the mini's "could" still be used for 40k as they are as official as the ones from dark vengeance.

Space Hulk is a completely stand-alone game in the 40K universe that just happens to use minatures that are the same size.
Dark Vengeance is the 40K starter set.

Not even remotely the same thing.

I highly doubt GW is going to force players to buy a 100 dollar box set to get one miniature.

They expected Ork players to buy the last starter set to get Deffkoptas...

Based on the fact it comes with it's own rules and such.

The what now?

It comes with the Warhammer 40000 rulebook.

(as I've yet to see official production run models be "snap fit" models).

They've been selling various boxes of snap fit models for 40K and Fantasy for some years now.

Unfortunately GW is trying to do with privateer press does with it's two player box sets but because 40k is a much more malleable system as far as models are concerned, you run into these kinds of issues.

Again, the what now?

GW was doing two-player starter sets before Privateer Press existed.

But this is all veering waaay off topic. The simple fact is that a couple of people are creating a distinction (that these 40K models arre 'official' while these [/i]other[/i] 40K models are not) out of whole cloth... and even if it were true, it has no bearing on how that model functions in the game.

Right as of this minute, the DV Hellbrute is the only Hellbrute model we have. The Hellbrute model that we currently have runs into LOS issues if you give it a ranged weapon on the powerfirst arm, and so requires some form of rules-bending to operate correctly in game.

How we got from there to arguing over whether or not models are official because they can be assembled without glue is completely beyond me.

**Kevin949**

Savageconvoy wrote:
That's odd. My CSM codex has pictures of the hellbrute from DV but they labeled it just as a Helbrute. Must be a typo.

Huh, my codex has no images for some of my models...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
Kevin949 wrote:
Well, space hulk wasn't a great example but the mini's "could" still be used for 40k as they are as official as the ones from dark vengeance.

Space Hulk is a completely stand-alone game in the 40K universe that just happens to use minatures that are the same size.
Dark Vengeance is the 40K starter set.

Not even remotely the same thing.

I highly doubt GW is going to force players to buy a 100 dollar box set to get one miniature.

They expected Ork players to buy the last starter set to get Deffkoptas...

Based on the fact it comes with it's own rules and such.

The what now?

It comes with the Warhammer 40000 rulebook.

(as I've yet to see official production run models be "snap fit" models).

They've been selling various boxes of snap fit models for 40K and Fantasy for some years now.

Unfortunately GW is trying to do with privateer press does with it's two player box sets but because 40k is a much more malleable system as far as models are concerned, you run into these kinds of issues.

Again, the what now?

GW was doing two-player starter sets before Privateer Press existed.

But this is all veering waaay off topic. The simple fact is that a couple of people are creating a distinction (that these 40K models arre 'official' while these [/i]other[/i] 40K models are not) out of whole cloth... and even if it were true, it has no bearing on how that model functions in the game.

Right as of this minute, the DV Hellbrute is the only Hellbrute model we have. The Hellbrute model that we currently have runs into LOS issues if you give it a ranged weapon on the powerfirst arm, and so requires some form of rules-bending to operate correctly in game.

How we got from there to arguing over whether or not models are official because they can be assembled without glue is completely beyond me.

Yes, I know, like I said it was a bad example.

Starter set or boxed set with different armies? They expect necron players to buy warriors to get scarabs.

Yes, it does come with the 40k rulebook. It also comes with it's own rules specific for the DV set. Did you get the package?

Boxes of, yes. Actual production run models that aren't "special case"? Not that I've seen, personally. Not recently anyway.

Hey, great, they did it first...doesn't mean they did it right or that their game is conducive to it.

Yes, it is, in that this topic shouldn't have really existed in the first place. Or at least not become such a huge deal considering the helbrute in question is not meant to be run with options, else it would have come with them (and here comes the "but this didn't!" counter-point).