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A mate of mine has pointed me here due to recent discussions about Blue Table Painting, and to be honest I don't have any real desire to way in on the debate. That said I thought it might be handy to have a review of a recent project and the issues involved in it.

I know this is my first post here so feel free to ignore it but it is an honest and non biased review. To start with let me say this isn't my first commission project I have undertaken quite a few over the last 24 months as I have little time to paint and while I enjoy it I enjoy having things on the table more and refuse to use shabby looking stuff.

To date all my commissions have been though local painters either based out of my local gaming store or soloist I have found through local online forums in Australia. To date I have been really impressed and happy with the level of work coming from these guys and will definitely continue to use them for different things.

So why did I decide to use BTP if I was so happy with the local blokes? Simple GW's embargo and price gouging. I wanted to create a new Army List for my Blood Angels that required me to buy a number of new models / kits. GW's pricing in Australia made that a costly proposition, compared to what I could get the models for in the US. To be exact the models in the US would cost me $273.75 while here in OZ the same models run at $437, so about a $164 difference just using RRP's places like MWG etc never sell for RRP.

Back in 2011 I had inquired about getting BTP to do some Orks for me, but I got them down locally, however on the 28th of July I got an email from Shawn asking if I had any interest in taking up a project with BTP and after talking to a friend I decided I would give BTP a punt with my latest need, figured I could get the whole lot done in one hit with little grief and fast going by the things Shawn says on you tube. Getting them done before Xmas should be a breeze since it was months away yet. Let me say now BTP certainly talks the talk but I found them wanting when it came to the actual doing.

30th of September I pay my deposit and send off the final instructions which BTP make plainly clear is your Contract, so read it carefully. I spent some time and added a lot of photo's from my flickr as references for what I wanted done. The list was;

2x Land Speeders
2x Razorbacks
10x Assault Marines (2 Sgt's) w/ JP removed
1x Additional Assault Marine with Storm shield and Bolt Pistol.
2x Sanguinary Priests
1x Mega Armored Big Mek (Converted from a MegaNob)
2x Cybork Bodied Nobz with Combi Skorcha

In my assembly instructions I made it clear that the Big Mek was to be based off a Mega Nob model and I had previously discussed that with Shawn via email ;

The Ork Mega Armoured Big Mek should be a converted Mega Nobz model, adding a Choppa on a Servo Arm and including some form of MekTools. Could be a Tool Belt, or a Welding Tank etc.... BTP has free reign however it must be clear when viewing the model that it is a Big Mek in Mega Armour vs just a Mega Nobz model.

So let's look at attempt number one

I emailed Josh the art director and let him now I wasn't really happy "The Mega Armored Big Mek is also wrong,  in the instructions I clearly said it was to be a modified meganob model so the mega armour was clearly shown.  Instead you have used an AOBR Warboss, and it shows no mega armour at all." Josh came back and asked me what I didn't like about the model, ie is it just the armor? and that he needed more detail. Yet I thought the assembly instructions were pretty clear and I followed up with "Considering it's a mega armoured unit the lack of any visable mega armour is a big deal don't you think?  I also don't want another warboss styled unit on the table as I already have enough.  I deliberately wanted it to be a converted meganobz model so it would be distinct from everything else on the table and have that beefly armour look.  I also believed using this model made it a lot easier to convert and the effort then just needed to be on the servo arm and mek tools."

BTP then gave my Mega Armoured Big Mek another crack...

While this is a vast improvement in terms of the armour, it's still not the stated MegaNob model that it was to be based on... that said however they did a pretty good job on the armour side of things, but I feel the servo arm is out of proportion to the rest of the model, there is no Twin Linked Shoota, or Powerclaw... and the base was nothing like the reference photo's provided... they altered it to look like;



The TL Shoota is just stuck on and doesn't really fit the theme of the model but it's better then the flamer that they had stock on there... so while I'm not happy with the end result I felt it would go around in circles as it was clear they aren't going to use the desired MegaNob. In my email to Shannon I told them "I think it's as good as it's going to get and will make some alterations when they arrive." and "I am still a bit sore that my instructions were not followed as I had a vision on my head about what it was going to be. At the point it is more important to me to get the models here for use over xmas, if need be i can fix the bases myself and covert a mega nob in my bits box if it really eats at me."

No doubt the more I think about it the more this model will sit on my bookshelf and I will build up another one out of a MegaNob and get a local to paint it up for me. This though would have been a better outcome if BTP has stuck to the "Contract" and delivered what was asked. I feel they didn't as they were unable to get the model I wanted.

Which brings me to the next issue... Time frames... Shawn is all over you tube talking about how quick their turn around is well lets just look at my time line and you can decide for yourselves how "professional" they are at BTP.

30th of September - Deposit and Final Instructions sent...

6th of October - To my surprise they emailed me again asking for the final instructions.

10th of October - I get an email from Shannon;
"I'm sorry for the confusion.  I'm not sure where the breakdown was, but it was on our end.  We have your instructions done, and it is all set."

27th of October - I get an email from Spencer;
"Unfortunately due to GW's policies the Sanguinary Priest model is a direct order only miniature, and we can't quite guarantee when we'll be making our next GW order."

right so it's not the 27th and we are only discussing this now? I followed Spencer up about why the delay in ordering the models as it's been 4 weeks and I get back;

"I do apologize about that. we just revamped our entire ordering system so things are a bit hectic. As of right now we're just waiting on your Land Speeders which I put the order in for yesterday so we should(barring any major catastrophes) have them in next week."

Okay so at this point my models still haven't arrived at BTP, heck some have only just been ordered.. and they now can't do the Sanguinary Priests so they are removed entirely from the project. ** Important note, BTP did at the last minute convert up some Priests for me which they didn't have to do and they didn't charge me **

7th of November - I get another email from Spencer after I inquire about the status of my models;

"We're actually just waiting on a Razoback to come in and then we'll get your models downstairs for you."

Um back the train up a minute, you are waiting on a Razorback?? What happened to only waiting on a Landspeeder as per the email of the 27th?? well apparently on reflection they only had 1 and not 2 in stock and hadn't noticed. So again we are back to waiting on models almost 5 weeks later.

17th of November - I am informed that my models are assembled and about to enter paint.

22nd of November - I get the email to say my project is complete... well I was horrified by the paint, keep in mind everything was to be a lvl 4 standard which is meant to be this standard http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=842 and as per Shawn way better then what you get at your local gaming club. I directly asked Shawn what level the reference model I provided was which is;



Shawn told me he would not pass it as a BTP level 4 and they is was somewhere between a 3 and a 4 so if I got them all done at level 4 I would have a result better then that.. so lets look at what they provided;



Now again to be fair when I quizzed Josh about this he did state "All the BA infantry was charged at level 3, but we will be happy to bring them up to level 4." This was however blatantly false and I pointed out "Really you best be checking the spreadsheet as they certainly were charged at LVL4."

I will give them the benefit of the doubt that the first attempt was at a lvl3 standard and not a lvl4, however I don't know why and Josh never followed up on that issue but they did redo the models and we ended up with;



I still do not believe these are the quality that BTP state in their examples of a Lvl 4 and are certainly no better then the reference model to my eyes. But as a table top model they aren't too bad, I would have liked the bases to be more in line with the reference photo's provided. But at least they look like Assault Marines now and not Tactical Marines.

Other issues included the Landspeeder's were not configured correctly as per the instructions, they were to be double heavy flamers and yet they were built with a heavy bolter so again this had to be fixed. The bases weren't as per the instructions and the poses on the Sgt with the Storm shield was hopeless ie;



which got changed to;



Moving onto my Nobz, this was one of the reference photo's;



BTP was asked in the instructions to "match the Nobz in the photo's provided as best as can be achieved with some minor variations." instead BTP delivered;



I can't see any attempt here to match the reference photo... it's like BTP took every single element in the "Contract" the threw it in the trash. The colours are off, now stand out cybork body features, a boss pole that shouldn't be there on one of the models and a large section on the arm that looks like it is still in primer and the flocking is totally wrong on the base.

BTP altered it to be;



Some minor adjustments, but still nothing like the references provided.

With all the alterations required just to make it semi passable took us till the 27th of November, pretty much bang on the 8 week mark. Am I happy? No not really, will I use BTP again? No I certainly won't be, while everyone I dealt with apart from Shawn was nice as pie and really did do their best, it just wasn't up to what it should be.

Their communication sucked, they didn't talk to each other to make sure things happened as and when promised. Shawn as far as I can see didn't take the actions I asked of him to make sure I didn't end up with a shoddy project outcome. I believe the issues with getting my models even ordered have a lot to do with the cash flow situation, and I would have been much much better off ordering through MWG and having them drop shipped to BTP... that would be my advice to anyone considering using BTP, do not let them get the models.

They make a big deal about getting the final instructions right, I don't know why as it is apparent they don't actually follow them... maybe I am being overly harsh but I can give stuff to any of the three locals I use and get an outcome that's 90% matched. Which is important when you want army cohesion on the table.

BTP are the cheapest painting service I have every used but it wasn't value for money I would rather pay twice as much and get something that blew me away, that said I think BTP is actually pretty expensive for what they offer. If I compare what they charge for a level 7 to what I could get it done for locally I believe my local blokes would provide a better product at a better price.

In fact I am having real trouble finding a positive reason to use BTP, I put my money where my mouth is and gave them a fair crack at it. I haven't bad mouthed them to anyone, or taken what others have said. This is my personal experience with them and I am satisfied they are not for me nor would I recommend them. It's odd to me that people talk about BTP as being professional, to me they are anything but and if I treated my customers they way I was treated I wouldn't have a business for very long. Sure they tried to make things right but really there wouldn't have been a need for the alterations if they just stuck to the "contract" and they didn't to any more then one would expect them to. Throwing in some converted Sanguinary Priests was a nice gesture but really I think that's the least they could do.

It got up my nose that they were all over Kickstarter, and you tube about how professional they are, how they are leading the industry and how fast they are because on every account they came up short with me. This is the longest I've ever had to wait on a project and for the least quality... I am not even sure they will make it here for xmas which I thought we had plenty of time for.

Anyone that's interested in seeing my other stuff so you know where I am coming from a good portion of it can be found at http://www.flickr.com/photos/diomac/

I am happy to answer any questions about my experiences. I really don't mean for this to be a BTP bash as they have gotten a lot of that lately but I do want it to be an honest review and reflection of my experiences that might help others.

Maybe when my models arrive they will be better in the flesh and if they are I will certainly say so...

A couple of the pics were not working, but other then that I think this was really helpful. Thanks for your review, it was informative.

Sorry about that I have updated the links...

Yes, good review.

It is. Hopefully you'll take some pictures when you get them and put them up to compare. One of the more known things about them is they purposely take their pictures in ways to try to hide flaws.

You could have done all this on your own. It looks to me like they rushed your order and took no time to get the detail you paid for. Shame on you Shawn, shame on you.

idiomatically, Great and honest review.

As an ork collector, convertor, modeler and painter who frequents ork collector websites and friends... your story pains me.

Those models by BTP are offensive and cheap to me as an ork player.

AoBR warboss is basically garbage. We all know it. He was less than 5$ a model and so static no one needed more than one. They are everywhere and at one time people would buy them to steal the power klaw and throw away the rest.

They used him as a base for conversion because he is basically costs nothing.

As for the Megamek they ended up making, you CLEARLY asked for the base model to be that of the 22$ Metal Meganob. They made one based off about 3$ of a 25$ nob plastic boxed set with what appears to be a deffgun.

That model is frankly awful as well. It is not even a good quality scratchbuild.

If BTP is passing these off as converted ork models, no one should ever ask them for an ork conversion ever. You can head over to pretty much any ork conversion thread and find someone who will make you a model better.

This is what I envisioned as a base from your request. Any ork convertor would have known:


Also, being a 'MEGAMEK' means you need the dual PKs to be obvious as the Megamek is the only ork int he army who can get a TLshoota, and Pk from the mega armor and also still have a choppa to exchange for a PK for dual PK. Something lost on this conversion.

As for the Cybork Nob... There is nothing Cyborked but the head. That is a static plastic nob box.

Converting is a skill, and it shows that whomever they had handle your contract has no business attempting things like Orks, Nurgle, or any other models which benefit from unique conversions.

As for the the paintjobs, I could teach anyone in 1 hour to paint those works to that level. That is nothing but basic "paint within the lines" with a wash. Hell, they are not even within the lines. Major details are missing from the model.

I totally understand paying someone to do something quick, fast, cheap but these are bad for ork models. The goal to skimp as much as possible on bitz to make dirt cheap junk ork models is apparent.

I can't comment on anything space marine related, but those Ork models are bad, and the megamek is unusable. Your story makes me really angry as an ork collector. I would really love to know your exact 'out of pocket' cost for your Megamek...

I hate the fact that I as well as a commission painter..and share the same name as the owner of BTP lol. In all seriousness though, My Buddy paid them well over 1900$ for a huge Blood angels army. After he got it back all we could say was "did they not turn the models over and paint them?" Nothing was painted underneath, and i do mean the individual troops as well. The painter that did his army to begin with quit..or was fired or whatever..because the second half of it did not match at all. It took him damn near 5 months to get everything..and it looks like it was so rushed, and painted on a sailing yacht in the middle of a Atlantic storm. My buddy currently is doing another giant project in which i was able to score the commission. A massive Ultramarines foot army. Im so excited to get it done.

I applaud you for this review, but I must point out that if you simply took some time to view their gallery you would have been less surprised.

The pictures you show me are clearly painted in the "BTP style" and matches a lot of the things they have in their 2012 gallery.

The vibrant Orks you wanted them to match are very different from their style.

Clearly from everything provided there seems to have been an issue with following specific instructions.

Which, to be honest, is bad.

However, I can say that subjectively, I think they looked good, but others may disagree. Perhaps they are best when you don't want specific looks, but are ok with creative interpretations.

While while may be fine in some cases, but in many others has zero value for some people.

thanks for sharing.

Arrrrrrg, closer inspection... MOLD LINES AND NOT-DRILLED BARRELS! Fixing that costs nothing... and professional painters and modellers even doing a basic paintjob have to correctly assemble the model which includes cleaning mold lines and drilling barrels.

nkelsch wrote:
Arrrrrrg, closer inspection... MOLD LINES AND NOT-DRILLED BARRELS! Fixing that costs nothing... and professional painters and modellers even doing a basic paintjob have to correctly assemble the model which includes cleaning mold lines and drilling barrels.

This and the fact that any 12 year old could paint those blood angels with some army painter spray, boltgun metal and shiny gold followed by a light wash. Thanks for showing this, OP; I've been thinking of commissioning some work and now definitely won't be using BTP from the looks of these I could do better myself.

Excellent review, BTP should be disgusted with themselves.

nkelsch wrote:
Arrrrrrg, closer inspection... MOLD LINES AND NOT-DRILLED BARRELS! Fixing that costs nothing... and professional painters and modellers even doing a basic paintjob have to correctly assemble the model which includes cleaning mold lines and drilling barrels.

That sort of jumped out at me as well. For my money, regardless of the level of painting involved, basic model prep is an absolute must for a professional service.

 insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Arrrrrrg, closer inspection... MOLD LINES AND NOT-DRILLED BARRELS! Fixing that costs nothing... and professional painters and modellers even doing a basic paintjob have to correctly assemble the model which includes cleaning mold lines and drilling barrels.

That sort of jumped out at me as well. For my money, regardless of the level of painting involved, basic model prep is an absolute must for a professional service.

i disagree. i spend lots of time preping. you get what you pay for. a good prep is around 1/5th of the work or even a bit more. so if you were to pay jack you would still expect amazing prep?

and at OP. you went with them because you were trying to save money and then you act shocked when the job they do sucks.

im not trying to defend them. but again, you get what you pay for.

They're expensive for what they do, the only reason he was even saving money is mostly due to how stupidly high the retail prices are here.

kb305 wrote:
i disagree. i spend lots of time preping. you get what you pay for. a good prep is around 1/5th of the work or even a bit more. so if you were to pay jack you would still expect amazing prep?

No, I wouldn't expect 'amazing prep' if I was paying for a cheaper paintjob... just a finished model. Which means mould lines removed and barrells drilled.

and at OP. you went with them because you were trying to save money and then you act shocked when the job they do sucks.

im not trying to defend them. but again, you get what you pay for.

Given that there was a discussion before the work started as to just what was required, that doesn't actually seem to be the case.

In any commission job, what you are paying for is what the artist agreed to do for you. Regardless of how much (or how little) you paid, if one of the requirements was for a model converted from a specific base model, and a different model was used instead, that's most definitely not getting what you paid for.

It's worth keeping in mind though that we only have one side of the story here.

nkelsch wrote:
Arrrrrrg, closer inspection... MOLD LINES AND NOT-DRILLED BARRELS! Fixing that costs nothing... and professional painters and modellers even doing a basic paintjob have to correctly assemble the model which includes cleaning mold lines and drilling barrels.

For table top quality miniatures, getting the models from the sprues to the point of putting paint on them takes half the time if you clean the mould lines off and drill the barrels.

Not that I'm disagreeing that it's not bad, but at the same time, time is money, if they calculated the costs by the hour they expect to spend, it'd probably cost more again. Mould lines and drilling barrels may be simple, but it's time consuming regardless of the skill level of the modeller.

It's still a part of finishing the model, though.


Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of commission modeling work, I simply wouldn't offer a service at a price that didn't allow me to properly prepare the model. If it's a choice between charging a little more, or shipping unfinished models, then the only sensible option is to charge a little more.

 insaniak wrote:
It's still a part of finishing the model, though.


Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of commission modeling work, I simply wouldn't offer a service at a price that didn't allow me to properly prepare the model. If it's a choice between charging a little more, or shipping unfinished models, then the only sensible option is to charge a little more.

And I appreciate that, but not everyone shares the same sentiment in regards to only wanting to sell the highest quality. I think in general, smaller operation commission painters don't value their time highly and end up charging a pittance for their time, far too little for what I'd consider "skilled" work. As soon as you actually want to run an organised business, time becomes a much more vital commodity, you can't just tell your employees to work a few extra unpaid hours/days to get a job done.

What you regard as finished may not be what other people think. As long as it's clear to the buyer that X money only gets them a paintjob and not extensive cleaning and finishing, I don't see the problem.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
And I appreciate that, but not everyone shares the same sentiment in regards to only wanting to sell the highest quality.

Don't get me wrong, there's a place for less than top quality work... but for a painting business, I would see that as differentiating the levels of paint quality, not affecting whether or not the model is assembled correctly.

As long as it's clear to the buyer that X money only gets them a paintjob and not extensive cleaning and finishing, I don't see the problem.

If the buyer is fully aware of what they are getting and is happy with that, then ultimately there is no problem. But seeing unfinished models on the table is just like nails down the blackboard for some... And while I don't find it quite that uncomfortable, the gun barrel thing has always been one of my pet peeves, just because it's so quick and easy to do, and makes such a difference to the finished model.

 insaniak wrote:
Don't get me wrong, there's a place for less than top quality work... but for a painting business, I would see that as differentiating the levels of paint quality, not affecting whether or not the model is assembled correctly.

If the buyer is fully aware of what they are getting and is happy with that, then ultimately there is no problem. But seeing unfinished models on the table is just like nails down the blackboard for some... And while I don't find it quite that uncomfortable, the gun barrel thing has always been one of my pet peeves, just because it's so quick and easy to do, and makes such a difference to the finished model.

Cleaning mould lines and drilling barrels is definitely a basic, but I don't know whether I'd go to an extreme of saying it's not assembled correctly without it. If they're pumping out your models in the space of 15 minutes each, I can appreciate not wanting to spend half of that or perhaps more cleaning/drilling/assembling. I know there's models in my own armies which I didn't have any particular desire to paint other than to get them on to the table and so I only cleaned the obvious mould lines to save myself a few minutes per model.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It's still a part of finishing the model, though.


Speaking as someone who has done his fair share of commission modeling work, I simply wouldn't offer a service at a price that didn't allow me to properly prepare the model. If it's a choice between charging a little more, or shipping unfinished models, then the only sensible option is to charge a little more.

And I appreciate that, but not everyone shares the same sentiment in regards to only wanting to sell the highest quality. I think in general, smaller operation commission painters don't value their time highly and end up charging a pittance for their time, far too little for what I'd consider "skilled" work. As soon as you actually want to run an organised business, time becomes a much more vital commodity, you can't just tell your employees to work a few extra unpaid hours/days to get a job done.

What you regard as finished may not be what other people think. As long as it's clear to the buyer that X money only gets them a paintjob and not extensive cleaning and finishing, I don't see the problem.

exactly.

little things add up big time. over even 20-30 models doing one small thing to each one can add an hour or more total to the job.

and i know for drilling i take my time because if i get it off center it would look better if i didnt drill at all. and after drilling the barrel it usually needs a touch of clean up with the scalpel.

I'm worried they were the cheapest service you have used, BTP's prices were always pretty insane for the quality they put out, unless you got these crazy cheap or they cut a nice deal I guess.

Painful to read though. The model shots you provided were so much higher standard than the ones you recieved it is horrid. I'm starting to think Shawn is 100% grounded in business and has no actual artistic skill, theres no other way to say the provided marine shot was "under level 3" otherwise.

Such a shame.

I am very aware you get what you pay for, hence why I asked Shawn what my table top standard was in terms of the BTP levels and he assured me his level 4 was better.

I also had multiple conversations with Shawn via skype specifically stating I did not want a shoddy rush job and that if it took longer then 8 weeks then so be it. I was miffed they took 6 of those just to sort out models however.

I am far from a cheap skate and have spend thousands on commissions in the last 12 months... however as a consumer all I can do is go off the information provided by the artist.

I state what I want done, they give me a price and we move on and get it done. I didn't go to BTP and say you must do it for this much and only this much... I gave them the spec and they came back with a price that I excepted.

If I'd gotten models to the standard as shown in their level 4 examples, and the instructions were followed and the Big Mek as made from a MegaNob I would be more then happy, I'd be over the moon.

At this point I've found BTP totally and utterly lacking on a number of fronts even though Shannon, Josh and Spencer were nice as pie. I have resigned myself to the fact that in the new year once the models have arrived and xmas is out of the way I will get them retouched as best as can be done by a local artist and I'll go to work on a new Big Mek out of a MegaNob as I desired.

The thing that really cuts though it turning up to some of my mates to get ribbed about how they told me so. No doubt someone from BTP will be along to give an account how they see it and that is fine, but I think the photo's pretty much speak for themselves at this point. I have tried to give a fair account of events.

 Ifalna wrote:
I'm worried they were the cheapest service you have used, BTP's prices were always pretty insane for the quality they put out, unless you got these crazy cheap or they cut a nice deal I guess.

If he was asking locals (in Australia) he might not have been able to get such a great deal since minimum wage, average wage and cost of living (and by extension the cost of the hobby) is much higher in Australia, so maybe the "local" commission painters can't afford to offer better prices.

Just a thought. I just moved to the US and am still getting paid in AUD and it's great, despite all the costs of moving (new furniture, appliances, car, etc), in 5 months I've still spent less than if I had been living in Oz.

So what other commision companies are around? Is there a list somewhere?

I am thinking of getting some done but I live in China so I don't have anything local (at least anyone that i can speak to)

blue table painting over charges for the work they do. Nothing they do is very special painting wise. You pay more for the named service than anything else. If i didn't like painting and modeling i'd go with buypainted.com. Not trying to plug anyone but they seem to be the best i've seen as a painting service. Prolly pretty pricy though. I woul dnever go with BTP though i can tell you that 100% I can fart a better paintjob.

 TheContortionist wrote:
blue table painting over charges for the work they do. Nothing they do is very special painting wise. You pay more for the named service than anything else. If i didn't like painting and modeling i'd go with buypainted.com. Not trying to plug anyone but they seem to be the best i've seen as a painting service. Prolly pretty pricy though. I woul dnever go with BTP though i can tell you that 100% I can fart a better paintjob.

I remember seeing some of his models auctioned on ebay a while back, I don't remember the exact price but I remember it was not even in the same realm as BTP... like, not even the same country let alone the same ballpark Though maybe that was a one off, I dunno.

just saying. for what they charge you should be getting non armature looking models. All the models i had up sold buddy. I have some genestealers up right now but i priced them a little high because i like them a lot for some reason. all the grey knights and everything sold for a good price though. And yes, better quality than these drab things, and i even drill holes for the barrels. derpy derp.